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Will constructs in Alpha be in the beta and launch?


BliitzTheFox

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1: That's like saying devs for an FPS won't want people in Alpha to keep fighting. The Alpha Team will be "designing blueprints" constantly because that is a core pillar of gameplay. 

 

2: Really has nothing to do with having an advantage over other players. If the devs conclude it provides unfair advantage, Alpha and Beta blueprints will be wiped.

 

3: Large constructs can't really be built again from scratch - unless the builder has meticulously kept notes on the minute details of the construct. This is especially true for the voxelmancy of intricate designs. The only real advantage there is experience honing voxelmancy techniques. 

 

4: If we have voxel engineers pushing the envelope and shocking the devs with the ingenuity of their designs - as occurred during Landmark- we can expect the devs to strive to keep those designs available in the form of blueprints after launch. We may even have players designing some of the constructs tyhe devs make available as starter Elements for newbies - as occurred in Landmark.

 

We'll see.

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As I would at least expect the mesh elements to go through a lot of changes during alpha, this would most likely mean that older blueprints would break because of parts being changed or even missing. Also some materials might be changed, or like it also happened in Minecraft, the code for elements could be changed. This would also most likely cause blueprints to break.

So I'm not sure if keeping blueprints will be a matter of intention in the first place.

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@Dygz I understand you want to keep blueprints though I dont agree with it.

 

But this is not landmark nor is it minecraft or Eve online. This is dual universe.

 

And personally I find it very poor taste of you to use the word vaporware.

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I would suspect that most of the alpha and beta wipes will effect some of our saved builds and leave others intact but they will not work in the newer version.

I have some early stuff in landmark that I would never want to see the light of day ever again. Hangs head in shame.

 

I have some ships in space engineers that wont work at all because of up dates.

 

I think some of the best alpha and beta build will show up as ruins. I've suggested that. Replace the elements and core unit with stone or loot chests drop them on a new planet to be found. We could even have a few themed build competitions.  The great sky whale build off.

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This is Dual Universe, so we will have to see what the devs actually do.

Even if the devs would like for us to use our blueprints from Alpha after launch that doesn't mean they wouldn't discover that they're forced to wipe them due to changes in the code. We have a lot of that language being used already - "we would like to do this, but we don't know yet if that will be possible."

 

I've followed the ambitious game EQNext: it's vaporware.

I've followed the ambitious game Revival: it's vaporware.

So, where people say things like, "I just want everyone to be sure about what they are signing up for before they join alpha and start to give the game and start to give the game a bad name when it's not what they expected."

Yes, my response is that I'm highly skeptical that this ambitious game will even make it to Alpha, let alone be released.

That Dual Universe will be vaporware is among my expectations - even though I will very likely back the Kickstarter anyway.

 

I'm currently playing (and loving) No Man's Sky. No Man's Sky does not come with all of the features promised even a month before launch - like multiplayer.

I've worked on games where the producer has continued to promise all kinds of features or even release right up until the week that the team is told the game is cancelled.

So, I am very, very skeptical that the NovaQuark devs can deliver what they hope to deliver.

 

But, I'm backing Dual Universe rather than Star Citizen or Crowfall because DU has a game design that I would like to play.

My desire to play that design is not contingent upon Alpha Team players having access to their Alpha blueprints.

 

I've worked as a game dev for over 10 years. You've probably played some of the franchises I've worked on.

There should be nothing offensive about the general potential for a game to become vaporware - that's the intrinsic nature of the business.

But, specifically, if the devs can't get making blueprints to work for Alpha when they already have building constructs that can fly in pre-alpha, then these devs don't have the chops to finish this game in a state that anyone would want to play.

What I'm really saying there is that these dev are not going to give access to an Alpha where players can't make blueprints. The chances of that happening is less than 0%. Not impossible, but less than 0%.

And if tit's not possible to create blueprints by Alpha, you should be deeply, deeply concerned about the devs' ability to release this game in a state that is better than Landmark or No Man's Sky.

 

 

Dual Universe is not Landmark and it is not Minecraft.

But the types of players who play voxel games do not necesarily have the same motivations and mindsets as competitive gamers who play non-voxel games. Lots of builders don't care about who "owns" blueprints or how "owning" blueprints will affect the economy. Lots of builders in voxel games are willing to share their blueprints for free - even when it's possible for them to make real life money from their blueprints.

Just because that was true in Landmark doesn't mean that will be true in Dual Universe because the DU community may have considerably more hardcore, competitive gamers than casual, cooperative builders. But we have quite a decent representation of Landmark Founders/players on the Alpha Team for Dual Universe, so there is a pretty good chance that we'll see that swap meets and sharing blueprints for free will be more common than gamers holding on to blueprints in order to have an advantage over other players.

 

No Man's Sky has 4 primary pillars: Explore; Trade; Fight; Survive

Dual Universe is not No Man's Sky.

But, it's pretty clear that the players who love No Man's Sky are Explorers.

Gamers hoping for robust trade, combat or survival mechanics are going to be disappointed in No Man's Sky.

Gamers who just want to beat the game as quickly and efficiently as possible are going to be disappointed in No Man's Sky.

Explorers who want to run around looking at the variety of scenery the game procedurally generates and catalog the various types of lifeforms and who wish to decipher the alien languages and uncover the mystery of how to activate the Portals will have blast.

 

We're not 20 years in the past, where the vast majority of people who play video games were hardcore, competitive gamers.

What we learn from the Bartle test is that not all players have the same motivations - there's a variety of player types:

Killer/Achiever/Socializer/Explorer

Achiever/Explorer/Killer/Socializer

Socializer/Killer/Explorer/Achiever

Explorer/Socializer/Achiever/Killer

 

The Bartle test was primarily designed for RPGs and includes MMORPGs.

With voxel games, we can add Builder as a player type.

Builders do not necessarily relate to voxel games in the same manner that players who love games like EvE or ArchAge or Star Citizen do. They don't necessarily have the same motivations or goals or interests or priorities.

What we learn from games like Landmark and Minecraft is that lots of builders just want to be able to build constructs and show off those constructs. Lots of builders are willing to share their blueprints for free and don't care about how that effects "the economy".

Lots of builders have no desire to have an advantage over other players - because they are casual, cooperative players rather than hardcore, competitive gamers.

 

So, while Dual Universe is not Landmark and it is not Minecraft - it is a voxel game rather than an FPS or even a non-voxel MMORPG, like WoW or EQ.

Yes, if the majority of the DU Alpha Team is comprised of gamers who are primarily Killer/Achievers or Achiever/Killers who will strive to maximize advantages over other players, who owns pre-Launch blueprints will be enough of a concern that pre-Launch blueprints will probably be wiped - due to the unfair advantages the Alpha Team would have on those whose first opportunity to play is Launch.

Regardless of whether the code is in good enough shape that the devs aren't forced to wipe Alpha blueprints due to tech constraints.

 

But, if the majority of the DU Alpha Team are Builder/Socializers or Socializer/Builders, the devs may indeed strive to allow us to keep Alpha blueprints if it's possible.

 

Dual Universe is Dual Universe.

Dual Universe is not Landmark.

Even if the devs philosophically want to keep Alpha blueprints available for the Alpha Team after launch, that doesn't mean tech constraints won't prevent them allowing that. Nor does it mean that the behavior of the Alpha Team won't cause them to decide the actual playerbase is so competitive that allowing the Alpha Team access to their blueprints after launch will be too much of a detriment to the economy.

The devs might start by saying, "We hope that the Alpha Team will be able to use their Alpha blueprints after Launch," and then discover that for various reasons they do actually have to wipe all pre-Launch blueprints.

It may be that instead of allowing players to keep their Alpha blueprints the devs turn some of the Alpha blueprints into starter Elements that are free for all players to use - like the starter templates in Landmark.

 

We don't know what will happen. And really we can't know, unless the dev philosophy is already absolutely against retaining Alpha blueprints. IIRC, they aren't absolutely against it, rather they are still evaluating the potential impact.

 

I'm an Explorer/Socializer. On the Bartle score, my Killer rating is 0%.

Despite being a founding member of the Coalition of Pirates and Smugglers, I'm a cooperative carebear who gives stuff away for free.

I am not a good enough voxelmancer to be a Builder. But, I want the members of the Alpha Team to be able to share their pre-Launch blueprints with all players for free because that helps build community - as seen by the swap meets in Landmark. And because it means that new players at Launch will instantly be able to see the phenomenal constructs non-professional players can craft as sooon as they walk off the Arkship.

That's not about ownership or advantage. I am not competitive. I couldn't care less about ownership, advantage or the economy.

I care most about having immersive environments as the foundation for great storytelling and having mechanics that profoundly support robust roles for players to play.

 

When players step of the Arkship, I want them to think, "Wow - those buildings were created by players?? Not the devs??!! I could potentially create something like that?? I gotta explore that building and learn how to create something similar."

 

My hope is that we have enough Explorers, Socializers and Builders playing DU such that the general case when people walk off the Arkship is not, "Wow - those buildings are owned by players?? Not the devs?? I could potentially own something like that? I gotta learn how to exploit the features in this game so I can gain advantage over other players."

 

I hope the Alpha Team is "better" than that.

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There'll be wipes in closed alpha and closed beta. There's a chance there'll not be a wipe between open beta and release. And there's a chance people will get to keep blueprints. It was an answer to a comment on kickstarter. 

 

Wipes are good, for obvious reasons. Keeping blueprints or not doesn't make any difference, the knowledge people will get by playing alpha and beta will be in their minds, and blueprints can be noted on paper or in any voxel engine. 

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I just dont see how you dont concider keeping anything from testing is an unfair advantage over the launch day players.

 

If anything blueprints represent time.

 

We will see what the devs decide.

Lets first worry about getting the game funded.

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Yep. Landmark had wipes, too. So, we can certainly expect wipes of constructs and inventory.

Wipes for blueprints is still being evaluated - from what I understand.

 

What has to be seen is whether blueprints provide a significantly greater advantage with regards to time than the intrinsic advantage garnered by months of experience using the building tools.

Again, the philosophical decision is going to revolve around the experience the devs want players to have when they  first walk off the Arkship.

Do the devs want the players to feel competitive about establishing the foundation city? If so, advantage is an important concern.

Do the devs want the players to feel inspired by what players can accomplish with the building tools? If so, advantage isn't really a concern.

 

Determining factor philosophically will be whether the Alpha Team is primarily competitive or primarily cooperative.

Where Alpha Team members are sharing their blueprints for free, there is no advantage.

We'll have to see how common it is for Alpha Team members to share their blueprints for free.

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Though I can not predict the future I am inclined to think that the first players will prefer to work together.

 

If it gets funded I'll be in the alpha and I'll be promoting cooperation.

 

I just want that the launch represents as closely as possible the game being pitched. A pristine new world for humans to have a fresh start in rebuilding civilization.

 

That means no ruins, no basic infrastructure just us and a few basic skills. At first there is nothing, then hopefully a year after launch a new player would experience waking up in a city.

 

Perhaps keeping blueprints wont be too much of an advantage. Though I am inclined to think otherwise. :)

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"Nothing" will be relative. We can expect the Alpha Team members to have at least a couple days headstart prior to launch in any case.

Also, we will have to see what blueprints are available as starter blueprints for newbies at launch. Some of which could be blueprints designed by the Alpha Team during Alpha and Beta.

Some current members of the Alpha Team are highly skilled voxelmancers who designed starter templates that are available for all players in Landmark.

We'll have to see what voxel engineers create during Alpha and Beta... and how the devs respond to those creations.

 

We are awaking with blueprints already in our nano-tools. Some of those blueprints may be personal blueprints Alpha Team members designed while awakened early in the virtual sim - as part of the reason the Alpha Team was awakened during the virtual sim.

Immediately at launch, we can expect that there will be no player constructs near the Arkship.

But, it's likely that members of the Alpha Team will quickly begin establishing a city using the blueprints from their nanoformers.

Alpha Team members will still likely have to actually gather the necessary resources and to craft the constructs and even to build the machines required to refine and fabricate the materials for buildings. Alpha Team members will still very likely have to re-learn the necessary skills to create the various materials.

We can expect a wipe of skills and resources and inventory. But, it's probably likely that Alpha Team members will be keeping some of their blueprints if there are no tech constraints preventing the devs from allowing that.

 

Alpha Team members (anyone playing during Beta, too) are going to have an "advantage" anyways. It's very likely that the Alpha Team members will have a couple days headstart which allows them to establish and "own" territories before players who first start playing at launch anyways.

It's unlikely that allowing Alpha Team members to keep their Alpha and Beta blueprints are going to provide a significant advantage with regard to who owns what at launch.

 

The greatest advantage will be the months of experience members of organizations have working together to establish territories, find resources, upgrade and synergize skill trees and script Lua.

Maintaining pre-launch blueprints is mostly about cosmetics and aesthetics.

We should be able to build a city of dirt and rock skyscrapers within an hour and even attach functioning doors from basic Elements. Advantage of ownership at Launch is going to be about who first establishes territories where; not about the blueprints people use to build constructs in those territories.

 

We can expect that there will be Alpha Team members devoted to establishing a city as quickly as possible with whatever basic skills, resources and materials will be available. The appearances of the buildings are not going to provide an advantage. In Landmark, we still had to acquire the necessary resources to create a building - having a blueprint just saves design time. Unless you're creating a building from dirt or rock or ice, you still have to upgrade your tools to be able to harvest and refine the necessary materials.

 

In No Man's Sky, having a blueprint doesn't mean you can instantly craft an upgrade or power an upgrade. You still have to harvest or craft the required materials - you might not have all the blueprints required to power your hyperdrive even if you have the blueprint to craft a hyperdrive.

 

Retaining a personal blueprint doesn't really provide an advantage. It just means you don't have to spend days redesigning the intricate details of a carved skull or a voxel space dragon sculpture.

It could theoretically still take days or weeks to gather all the materials and skills required to place your pre-launch blueprint in the world - if your blueprint is made with uncommon or rare resources.

 

Resources, inventory, skills and territories all trump blueprints... and resources, inventory, skills and territories will almost certainly be wiped between Alpha and Beta. It's very likely that resources, inventory, skills and territories will be wiped between Beta and Launch because the lore has everything we gather and construct before Launch transporting in a virtual sim.

But, the lore also supports the blueprints we design in the virtual sim being retained for our nanoformers via the AI.

And the lore supports designing blueprints in the virtual sim to aid people as they exit the Ark as one of the primary reasons the Alpha Team is awakened early.

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it would be kind of cool if the starting planet we use in beta, ends up being a random planet in the full game so all our early constructs can be found as a planet of ruins late in the game (well i assume late in the game because the universe is huge but someone could get lucky early i guess) 

 

I know this probably isn't how its going to be, i just think that would be really neat and make sure that people don't find / reclaim them early in the game 

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I think what the devs have said is that the Alpha Team is awakened first and for Alpha and Beta projected into a virtual sim on the Arkship as it preps to settle on Alioth.

So, the pre-Launch planet should not be accessible for us to discover in the meat space of the DU setting.

 

But, I wouldn't be surprised to have some of the ruins we do discover on random planets be constructs created by pre-Launch players in addition to devs.

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