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PVP balancing (warp)


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Short version: dropping out of warp letting people continue at max speed should be stopped immediately. Force anyone who drops out of warp, manually or upon reaching the destination, to come to a full stop, and lock their controls for a brief period (as is the case when you leave warp automatically).

 

Long version: pirates whined about not getting enough action, and NQ delivered by forcing warp ships to have a spool-up time that could be stopped by a target lock. Pirates were happy. Pirates could use scripting to predict player trajectories, warp over, and cancel warp while retaining high speeds to catch ships that were travelling at max speed. That's total BS. If NQ insists on locking the ship down for warp, they should lock down the radar, as well as force any ships in warp to come to a complete stop when they drop out, regardless of if it's by prematurely stopping or arriving at the destination. By allowing ships to maintain max speed when dropping out of warp early, they give pirates specifically an unfair advantage over others. Pirates specifically, because they're the only ones who benefit from that strategy in a PVP game, with the ultra-rare exception of actual battles taking place and reinforcements warping in...which is a joke, because battles don't last that long to begin with due to there being no large-scale conflicts.

 

This game needs PVP balance, not preferential treatment for trolls/pirates (or whatever helps them sleep better at night calling themselves. I've heard "gankers," and "justifications" for being one, but it's all the same). Making ships slower so that pirates could more easily catch them was just another way to show preferential treatment to them at the expense of people who already sink hours into travel time. Rather than making things slower, they should have just increased the cap and kept the concept of acceleration slowing as your speed increases according to some curve. Throwing out lame "we realize that this will make some people (everyone who even thinks of space travel, except pirates) mad, but we want more people (pirates) to enjoy the game" excuses for giving preferential treatment to pirates is not exactly a great way to convince people that space travel is worth sinking time into....unless they live to troll those who do.

Stasis guns might be useful for that, but it goes both ways, and slow ships becoming slower means that there's even less incentive to bother. PVP isn't cheap. Flying isn't cheap. You can't sell damaged elements on the market. Pirates get away with it because that's what makes them happy, and they have the chance for stealing cargo. There is no real motivation for PVP orgs to fight pirates because of the cost, and since taxes go to Aphelia instead of orgs, there's no way to fund them except through donations...and good luck getting anyone but a pirate to fly for 4-6 hours playing escort, when a pirate can warp in at any moment, without any delay between dropping out of warp and shooting. Again, it's preferential treatment.

 

Get some balance, and stop making excuses for coddling pirates. They're the ones who do the bulk of PVP, but that should not mean giving them what they want. It should mean finding ways to make other people want to, rather than forcing them to in the least reasonable ways that put them at a significant disadvantage. You will never entice people to actually do PVP without balance, and without finding ways to get non-pirates, specifically non-pirates, interested in it beyond "we don't have a choice." Because you don't need to entice pirates. They already want it. You need to entice everyone else. Entice, not force.

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Look at me I am one of those you despite. Many times I warpstopped and jumped on an unexpected target and cored it. It was not my skill that contributed to their demise no, more it was their own failure to avoid to fly in the cone of the pipe that caused them to loosing a ship and cargo. You just have to fly not direct to any planet but take sideways. That situation you describe is 100% avoidable just not fly in pipes.

 

This is actually one of the fun things in DU to have done at least once and you want to remove it.

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8 hours ago, Walter said:

Look at me I am one of those you despite. Many times I warpstopped and jumped on an unexpected target and cored it. It was not my skill that contributed to their demise no, more it was their own failure to avoid to fly in the cone of the pipe that caused them to loosing a ship and cargo. You just have to fly not direct to any planet but take sideways. That situation you describe is 100% avoidable just not fly in pipes.

 

This is actually one of the fun things in DU to have done at least once and you want to remove it.

100% avoidable just not fly in the pipes...except when that doesn't work. My org has a guy who regularly flies outside the pipe for missions (or did before the change), and "100% avoidable" was constantly disproved. "Less likely," yes, but only to a point that was discussed quite a bit before, following along the lines of "actually, they also watch those other areas. Here are videos showing them catching people who try." If it was a simple matter of going out of the way, you would have a point, because then pirates have to chase people down the old-fashioned way. But it isn't that simple, because you DON'T have to do that when they go direct.

 

Hey, you want things to be fun, then make sure it's balanced so it's not JUST you having fun. You guys complained about people warping before you could shoot them, so you got what you wanted, but with no balance. This is a reasonable balance. You want a spin-up time and full stop to warp so you can get some PVP action? Then have a spin-down time and full stop to leave warp and make things reasonably fair. My points about escorts and the like are still completely valid, whereas yours for keeping a feature that only really favors pirates is just "I have this shiny toy that gives me an advantage since I took away their shiny toy, and I don't want mine taken away, too, because then I won't have fun." You want fun, but so does everyone else. Balance or bust.

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23 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

100% avoidable just not fly in the pipes...except when that doesn't work. My org has a guy who regularly flies outside the pipe for missions (or did before the change), and "100% avoidable" was constantly disproved. "Less likely," yes, but only to a point that was discussed quite a bit before, following along the lines of "actually, they also watch those other areas. Here are videos showing them catching people who try." If it was a simple matter of going out of the way, you would have a point, because then pirates have to chase people down the old-fashioned way. But it isn't that simple, because you DON'T have to do that when they go direct.

 

 

Then he did something wrong because how to warp jump someone if in that direction is no planet explain that to me.

 

25 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

 

Hey, you want things to be fun, then make sure it's balanced so it's not JUST you having fun. You guys complained about people warping before you could shoot them, so you got what you wanted, but with no balance. This is a reasonable balance. You want a spin-up time and full stop to warp so you can get some PVP action? Then have a spin-down time and full stop to leave warp and make things reasonably fair. My points about escorts and the like are still completely valid, whereas yours for keeping a feature that only really favors pirates is just "I have this shiny toy that gives me an advantage since I took away their shiny toy, and I don't want mine taken away, too, because then I won't have fun." You want fun, but so does everyone else. Balance or bust.

It was nerfed with good reason now you guys want to unerf it. You want to haul safe from planet to planet just warp it it takes ages now anyway to slowboat it. You save electricity and pc life and we are not chasing you guys then. This game has such huge amounts of safe spaces but they ask always for more imagine that.

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22 minutes ago, Waffle Boy said:

Damn I was just replying to another pvp bashing thread.  Now I have to do it to another one?  Like this magnificent other poster, Walter, just said, you can avoid it if you just fly outside of a pipe.

Maybe if I put it into simpler terms, you'll understand the problem:

Kid #1 has a shiny toy. Kid #2 has a shiny toy.

Kid #1 whines to an adult that kid #2 has a shiny toy that makes it so kid #1 can't have fun. The adult takes away kid #2's shiny toy, but lets kid #1 keep theirs.

Kid #2 then says "that's not fair. If you take mine away, you should take theirs away, too."

That brings us to now, where kid #1 is saying "that's not fair. I should be allowed to keep my shiny toy and have fun, even though they can't keep theirs."

Except that we're talking about kid #1 actually stealing from kid #2 after beating them up for a lauhg, with almost (almost) nobody who actually stands up to people like kid #1 because there's almost no incentive to, and plenty of incentive NOT to (it's not cheap, there's basically no reward, etc). Like you people defend your shiny toy with "stop trying to take away my shiny toy," the "best" response is "just warp directly. Don't slowboat at all, because they WILL catch you before you can even respond. Here's some videos proving my point."

Complaining about balance is a [filtered] move after all that whining to gain an advantage. Sure, you can slowboat out of the pipe, but that just leaves the STANDARD threat of pirate attacks, which aren't uncommon already. That STANDARD threat should be the only threat, because that forces pirates to put in the effort to chase people down, which is only fair given that the people they troll have to also put in the effort to fly for multi-hour trips.

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35 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

100% avoidable just not fly in the pipes...except when that doesn't work. My org has a guy who regularly flies outside the pipe for missions (or did before the change), and "100% avoidable" was constantly disproved. "Less likely," yes, but only to a point that was discussed quite a bit before, following along the lines of "actually, they also watch those other areas. Here are videos showing them catching people who try." If it was a simple matter of going out of the way, you would have a point, because then pirates have to chase people down the old-fashioned way. But it isn't that simple, because you DON'T have to do that when they go direct.

 

I think what you describe is not warp jumping but tracking planet traffic with dead cores. As far I know that was patched with Athena update. Tracking ships with surrogate pods was patched in Demeter. And following ship with atmo radar out of planet is legit gameplay. 

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4 minutes ago, Walter said:

It was nerfed with good reason now you guys want to unerf it. You want to haul safe from planet to planet just warp it it takes ages now anyway to slowboat it. You save electricity and pc life and we are not chasing you guys then. This game has such huge amounts of safe spaces but they ask always for more imagine that.

It was nerfed because pirates whined about not getting enough action. Nobody said anything about un-nerfing it. I EXPLICITLY said that it should be nerfed for EVERYONE, not just slow-boaters. I'm talking about balancing, and you're trying to straw-man it to make you guys appear to be the real victims when someone says "maybe they shouldn't get to keep their advantage, since they took it away from their victims." B.A.L.A.N.C.E., not special treatment, not un-nerf.

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3 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

 

Complaining about balance is a [filtered] move after all that whining to gain an advantage. Sure, you can slowboat out of the pipe, but that just leaves the STANDARD threat of pirate attacks, which aren't uncommon already. That STANDARD threat should be the only threat, because that forces pirates to put in the effort to chase people down, which is only fair given that the people they troll have to also put in the effort to fly for multi-hour trips.

You say the pirate proffesion is trolling I say is it is fair play, the game even gives a warning before you enter PvP space. And you are entering an area where only the stronger survive. So its on you if you go unprepared in it.

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3 minutes ago, Walter said:

I think what you describe is not warp jumping but tracking planet traffic with dead cores. As far I know that was patched with Athena update. Tracking ships with surrogate pods was patched in Demeter. And following ship with atmo radar out of planet is legit gameplay. 

Yeah, it's standard pirating. But my point is about balancing the non-standard pirating, not making all travel safe all the time.

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3 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

Maybe if I put it into simpler terms, you'll understand the problem:

Kid #1 has a shiny toy. Kid #2 has a shiny toy.

Kid #1 whines to an adult that kid #2 has a shiny toy that makes it so kid #1 can't have fun. The adult takes away kid #2's shiny toy, but lets kid #1 keep theirs.

Kid #2 then says "that's not fair. If you take mine away, you should take theirs away, too."

That brings us to now, where kid #1 is saying "that's not fair. I should be allowed to keep my shiny toy and have fun, even though they can't keep theirs."

Except that we're talking about kid #1 actually stealing from kid #2 after beating them up for a lauhg, with almost (almost) nobody who actually stands up to people like kid #1 because there's almost no incentive to, and plenty of incentive NOT to (it's not cheap, there's basically no reward, etc). Like you people defend your shiny toy with "stop trying to take away my shiny toy," the "best" response is "just warp directly. Don't slowboat at all, because they WILL catch you before you can even respond. Here's some videos proving my point."

Complaining about balance is a [filtered] move after all that whining to gain an advantage. Sure, you can slowboat out of the pipe, but that just leaves the STANDARD threat of pirate attacks, which aren't uncommon already. That STANDARD threat should be the only threat, because that forces pirates to put in the effort to chase people down, which is only fair given that the people they troll have to also put in the effort to fly for multi-hour trips.

I don't think people realize how easy it is to avoid pirates if you just fly outside the pipe.  Sure you'll get caught once or twice but 9 times out of 10 you'll be safe.  It's funny how people would rather just cry to NQ instead of actually learning a valid strategy to avoid pirates altogether.  Everyone only has a 2 SU radar which isn't that far.  If you're already 2 or 3 SU away from the planet and you haven't been noticed (and not going down the pipe), then essentially you're free.

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1 minute ago, Dakanmer said:

It was nerfed because pirates whined about not getting enough action. Nobody said anything about un-nerfing it. I EXPLICITLY said that it should be nerfed for EVERYONE, not just slow-boaters. I'm talking about balancing, and you're trying to straw-man it to make you guys appear to be the real victims when someone says "maybe they shouldn't get to keep their advantage, since they took it away from their victims." B.A.L.A.N.C.E., not special treatment, not un-nerf.

You say PvP players whined for it. What about you whining here to make it "balanced"

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With the new max speed limits I don't think this matters anymore as a cargo ship has to be under 1.5kt or it's going 20k/h and most pirate ships will be 35k/h ships or faster and with rockets they can have a faster max speed so haulers have no chance of escaping now. And warping in reinforcements down a pipe will require you to stop then catch up so you just have to do it with light pirate like ships not the 20Kt battle ships you will want for PvP base defense. Warp Drops at zero speed would be useful for getting to multiple locations along a line like asteroids and space station so it should be good to have the warp drop you at zero like a normal exit. The warp cancel and keeping speed was a bug they made into a feature instead of fixing it.

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1 minute ago, Walter said:

You say the pirate proffesion is trolling I say is it is fair play, the game even gives a warning before you enter PvP space. And you are entering an area where only the stronger survive. So its on you if you go unprepared in it.

It is trolling, plain and simple. Yes, there's a warning, just like there's a warning on a pack of cigarettes and a bottle of alcohol saying "this is dangerous." That doesn't change the fact that pirates in games do it primarily for fun, i.e. to troll, just like smokers and alcoholics use their products for their enjoyment. Blaming the people who get trolled for the troll trolling them doesn't change the fact of what happened, and trying to suggest it does only proves the point further.

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2 minutes ago, Walter said:

You say PvP players whined for it. What about you whining here to make it "balanced"

Maybe try reading what I suggested before asking that, because I spelled it out very clearly.

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3 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

Maybe try reading what I suggested before asking that, because I spelled it out very clearly.

Try learning a valid strategy instead of expecting to go down a pipe and not die from pirates...

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3 minutes ago, Waffle Boy said:

I don't think people realize how easy it is to avoid pirates if you just fly outside the pipe.  Sure you'll get caught once or twice but 9 times out of 10 you'll be safe.  It's funny how people would rather just cry to NQ instead of actually learning a valid strategy to avoid pirates altogether.  Everyone only has a 2 SU radar which isn't that far.  If you're already 2 or 3 SU away from the planet and you haven't been noticed (and not going down the pipe), then essentially you're free.

Yes, people would rather just cry to NQ instead of actually learning a valid strategy...hence the nerf that pirates cried to NQ about to create the full-stop and spin-up of warp drives....

I offered a reasonable balance to an unfair advantage. That's all. Take away unfair advantages like being able to warp immediately. Fine. But balance it out so that there is NO unfair advantage. It's not whining to say "that's an unfair advantage, here's a fair solution," especially not when pirates said "that's an unfair advantage, so take it away and give us an unfair advantage."

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2 minutes ago, Waffle Boy said:

Try learning a valid strategy instead of expecting to go down a pipe and not die from pirates...

Try making a valid argument instead of complaining that a valid one has been presented that YOU DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO READ.

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Just now, Dakanmer said:

Yes, people would rather just cry to NQ instead of actually learning a valid strategy...hence the nerf that pirates cried to NQ about to create the full-stop and spin-up of warp drives....

I offered a reasonable balance to an unfair advantage. That's all. Take away unfair advantages like being able to warp immediately. Fine. But balance it out so that there is NO unfair advantage. It's not whining to say "that's an unfair advantage, here's a fair solution," especially not when pirates said "that's an unfair advantage, so take it away and give us an unfair advantage."

lol that warp drive was broken before NQ fixed it.  People were able to warp instantly before getting shot so please don't bring that up as an example.  Joke after joke from you.  Also maybe your hauler guy just had someone on his ship, that's an exploit but I think NQ may have fixed it recently.  That or someone is using a trajectory script on you and is flying like 20 SU ahead of you to setup an ambush.

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2 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

It is trolling, plain and simple. Yes, there's a warning, just like there's a warning on a pack of cigarettes and a bottle of alcohol saying "this is dangerous." That doesn't change the fact that pirates in games do it primarily for fun, i.e. to troll, just like smokers and alcoholics use their products for their enjoyment. Blaming the people who get trolled for the troll trolling them doesn't change the fact of what happened, and trying to suggest it does only proves the point further.

It is a game. A game is supposed to have an opposing force like NPC and mobs to advance. In here there are no NPC so the mobs are we. I give it to you that you have no choice to adjust the difficulty level.

 

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I've made my point clear. It's obvious that people arguing against it aren't actually reading any of it, and are instead knee-jerking about "oh, no! He's attacking pirating! All hands on deck to argue against whatever he's saying should change!" I won't post further, because it's pointless trying to argue with people who won't do the bare minimum of reading the suggestion, or the further explicitly-stated clarifications/reiterations.

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2 minutes ago, Dakanmer said:

I've made my point clear. It's obvious that people arguing against it aren't actually reading any of it, and are instead knee-jerking about "oh, no! He's attacking pirating! All hands on deck to argue against whatever he's saying should change!" I won't post further, because it's pointless trying to argue with people who won't do the bare minimum of reading the suggestion, or the further explicitly-stated clarifications/reiterations.

Same could be said about you. Refusing to read or learn any counter-measure, just insulting the people responding to you.  Enjoy your day.

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So if I understand this thread right you want the people to not have max speed if they cancel their warps but instead come to a full stop if they do.

In practice this would only screw you over even more if you were the slowboater and the guy is warping past you and then cancels the warp.

Now with Athena they will likely be faster than you anyway, reaching higher top speeds than your hauler above 1.5kt total weight could go, which is about 20.000 km/h.

If you have the warper immediately stop and drop to 0km/h at canceling warp, they wont have to slowly decelerate and turn around and whatnot but your 20.000 km/h slowboating speed would basicly push you into their range and drop you back onto their radar pretty much immediately because they already warped ahead of you anyway. Even if they dropped the opposite direction, you practically going 20k km/h into the opposite direction, them now being at 0km/h means they can turn around and catch you a lot easier since, again, their ship will likely go something like 32.000 km/h max speed with high G forces of thrust compard to your 20.000 km/h slowboating hauler.

So you're asking to get buttfk'd harder?


I am not sure where you're going with this...

Edited by Metsys
edit for clarification
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