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Research table and industry revamp idea: Thaumcraft-like progression


Mjrlun
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Look up "Thaumcraft 4 research" and "Thaumonomicon" for reference.

image_2021-12-01_102134.png.b846786e8ba885228376e769e9a20cac.png

Tech tree examples ^

 

 

In Thaumcraft you have a 'tech tree' and in this you can unlock various recipes for items (eg. schematics in DU). In this tech tree it gives a relatively defined path, however, sometimes the triggers to research steps are not clear. The user must unlock precursor items and precursor research point types, or trigger certain events to progress to the next step on the tree. However, the best part about this tree is when you click on an element on the tree there is usually a detailed description of the item (not just the item's tool tip description).

 

There is also a research table where you can scan various blocks (elements, voxels, honeycomb, and terrain decor in DU's case) for these research points of various types (ex. Terra, Lux, Aqua, etc.), which you can use in the research table to make patterns in a puzzle to unlock the recipe of an item. In DU's case this would translate to getting a schematic in return. Now, this could replace the need to sell schematics by bots, because the required stuff to make these researches could be engineered to only found after exploration (and prospecting). 

 

Research (Thaumcraft 4) - Feed The Beast Wiki

Left: List of various research point variants that the user can use for the research puzzle.

Right: The research puzzle itself, the pre-existing "nodes" must all be connected to each other in some way complete the puzzle.

These research points in Thaumcraft can be combined, and all but the most elemental are a form of 'recipe tree', where they are made by, or make other research point types. These research points connect in the puzzle to other research points that they either are made of 1 tier down, or make 1 tier up.

 

To scan there'd probably be talents related to it, as well as a tool to scan the various objects. Items could be further investigated by actually putting  them into the table. All items/objects should be scannable (to return some research points).

 

 

 

How to replicate a schematic once you "unlock" it at this table? The best way to enrich the replication of schematics is to add a new layer of depth to item scanning. Once you unlock certain parts of the tech tree, it should be possible to re-scan various elements (without telling the player what changed, after all, it's research). The player could then re-play the puzzle mini-game to attain more schematics. This should naturally create a limit on the amount of schematics possible by an individual, due to this budgeting.

 

Lastly, the research table "puzzle", unlike Thaumcraft, is fundamentally random to some extent. The player will always be presented with the same "research stems" in the puzzle, however, their positions are entirely random, unlike the original, making the replay-ability much higher.

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NQ want a quanta sink and one of them currently is schematics.  Now a schematic research system that requires quanta to use... I am sure they can get behind something like that.

Players generating schematics makes a lot of sense, but it won't happen while its tied down as a quanta sink :(

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You could make an entire game around the R&D aspect of stuff... but here's my simplified suggestion.

You build/buy a "research" unit/station.

This unit is tied to the Ark ship's mainframe (for lore purposes)

You can run research jobs that take a set amount of time and resources plus require access to the mainframe (this access can be monetised, since you are using a service)

To research the more exotic stuff you need existing tech to already be known.

 

And as a stretch goal, you can run projects to try and improve the statistics of the parts at the cost of something else (I'm thinking SWG crafting system now, that was ace) 

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19 minutes ago, Kurock said:

NQ want a quanta sink and one of them currently is schematics.  Now a schematic research system that requires quanta to use... I am sure they can get behind something like that.

Players generating schematics makes a lot of sense, but it won't happen while its tied down as a quanta sink :(

 

This game needs some kind of element, player, and org research trees in the sense that you can add stats boosts via Exp to upgrade elements, Player Talent research, and Org based tech research like Age of Empires, Stellaris, Civilization, etc.

 

Since NQ does not seem to want to complete parts lines for ships, industry, etc it should just all be built into a research system to improve performance since the stats are pretty lacking, cumbersome since you can stack them, and should be freed up with an exp based system.

 

Player talents are decent the way it is though it could use a Mechanic tree, Prospecting tree, and a couple other Talents here and there.

 

But Orgs need a reserch system that relies on each person in an org working on what they think the org needs to where the research is locked to the player but added together as a total of all members for talents costing like 20mil T1 and if you leave the org your org research goes with you to the next org.

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/1/2021 at 11:01 AM, Warlander said:

 

This game needs some kind of element, player, and org research trees in the sense that you can add stats boosts via Exp to upgrade elements, Player Talent research, and Org based tech research like Age of Empires, Stellaris, Civilization, etc.

 

Since NQ does not seem to want to complete parts lines for ships, industry, etc it should just all be built into a research system to improve performance since the stats are pretty lacking, cumbersome since you can stack them, and should be freed up with an exp based system.

 

Player talents are decent the way it is though it could use a Mechanic tree, Prospecting tree, and a couple other Talents here and there.

 

But Orgs need a reserch system that relies on each person in an org working on what they think the org needs to where the research is locked to the player but added together as a total of all members for talents costing like 20mil T1 and if you leave the org your org research goes with you to the next org.

I really like this idea :D

What I like about the research table proposal is it gives more than just the research - like the emergent gameplay of sharing knowledge and schematics that you discuss. What I like the most however is the material sink that would go into the schematics, and the scarcity created by them, which should help regulate the economy in a more organic way than carnival tokens (quanta).

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I can't see this turning into anything else but the majority mocking another minigame, criticising the lack of emergeance. The caps aren't ideal either, basically every player will have the same factory, unless some can be tricked into giving up a comparative advantage...  With everybody having the same number of calibration, and the same number of schematics, the only real strategy to be had is to group up, might be a design choice but I' m not a big fan.

 

And subjectively: I never touched empyrion again the day they skillcapped their recipes. I could see how a society would trade non fungible stl files (schematics)... Being unable to run an industry unless you shot enough aliens is the dumbest thing I ever saw.

 

 

So IDK maybe I'm just biased because of empyrion. But seriously I think it's a good thing warp beacon schematics are unnaffordable, rather than a little puzzle one can look up online.

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13 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

I can't see this turning into anything else but the majority mocking another minigame, criticising the lack of emergeance. The caps aren't ideal either, basically every player will have the same factory, unless some can be tricked into giving up a comparative advantage...  With everybody having the same number of calibration, and the same number of schematics, the only real strategy to be had is to group up, might be a design choice but I' m not a big fan.

 

And subjectively: I never touched empyrion again the day they skillcapped their recipes. I could see how a society would trade non fungible stl files (schematics)... Being unable to run an industry unless you shot enough aliens is the dumbest thing I ever saw.

 

 

So IDK maybe I'm just biased because of empyrion. But seriously I think it's a good thing warp beacon schematics are unnaffordable, rather than a little puzzle one can look up online.

If you read the post, no you really cant look up specific schematics online past the research point "nodes" that is the only constant in that schematic. The specific arrangement of these nodes can be randomized such that its not terribly helpful to google search.

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Hm it seems so but I don't understand the system well enough to see how it wouldn't suffice to turn or mirror or whatever the image to get it sticking to any case.

 

 

TBF if the amount of schematics one can craft is capped by an ingredient that can be found ingame, and is distributed smartly among the right gameloops it could be done ok. But to also give merit to the current system: it's pure economics and very likely to cause the desired insights/questions (do I really need the schematic or do I only need the element once or twice). Your system is more fun to solo players, I have no issues admitting that, but I'm also confident that it's bad for specialisation and thus the economy as a whole, why trade what you can make yourself.

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In the post I mention that the first time the schematic is "researched" you get it from the puzzle, while later you'd most likely get it from inputting resources that have resource aspects corresponding to what made the schematic. It could be balanced such that making the schematic the first time costs less than the recurring creations afterward, such that it is a proper research sink. Also its pretty silly to be scarred from Empyrion's skill tree because it is a survival/progression game, and all games that are not literal sandboxes need this type of structure to properly build their ideas. You should not think of a game's progression about "how quickly can I get from point a to point b", and instead think "how can I enjoy the journey as much as possible from point a to point b." A game designer needs to focus on the latter to make their game actually interesting.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

Hm it seems so but I don't understand the system well enough to see how it wouldn't suffice to turn or mirror or whatever the image to get it sticking to any case.

 

 

TBF if the amount of schematics one can craft is capped by an ingredient that can be found ingame, and is distributed smartly among the right gameloops it could be done ok. But to also give merit to the current system: it's pure economics and very likely to cause the desired insights/questions (do I really need the schematic or do I only need the element once or twice). Your system is more fun to solo players, I have no issues admitting that, but I'm also confident that it's bad for specialisation and thus the economy as a whole, why trade what you can make yourself.

Well the point isnt to necessarily be about trading. It seems a lot of DU players miss this point. Game loops should try to maintain separate in their progression and mechanics such that you don't have to directly rely on the external loop - schematics are the worst example of this, as industry relies on the market game loop for multiple reasons. What it boils down to is that quanta are essentially the ore/manufactured parts you traded in so you can buy other things, however, it doesnt make sense that you can't just use them directly to make actual things, and progress. Markets need a use beyond "we're forcing you to use them because we said so", and moreso "I can't be bothered to make this", or "It's more economically efficient to let others craft this than me".

 

Edited by Mjrlun
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1 minute ago, Mjrlun said:

Also its pretty silly to be scarred from Empyrion's skill tree because it is a survival/progression game, and all games that are not literal sandboxes need this type of structure to properly build their ideas.

 

 

The way I see it, many of those survival games added these craft-tree timesinks to boost the average amount of time played by each player. In empyrion's case it's just most striking what a vapid filler material it is, others didn't make it as bad as bad as empyrion, some even make it work very well.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Mjrlun said:

Markets need a use beyond "we're forcing you to use them because we said so", and moreso "I can't be bothered to make this", or "It's more economically efficient to let others craft this than me".

 

Should you ever transcend the bold part, I beg you to spread that wisdom in the real world, you'd be onto something world changing.

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