Jump to content

an apology to naunet for creating a thread that got out of hand


ELX987
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Dimencia said:

How are you supposed to bring people back?  They played, they got bored, they quit.  They paid their subscriptions while playing, and afterward, sure you could say their money is being used to make a game for other people. But I mean, they paid for the subscription knowing it would expire.

Basically, it is not my job as a customer in the first place to have to explain to a company how they sell their products. On the other hand, I am happy when they let me participate in the process and I give my feedback and they celebrate me as a great, valued community member, because without me none of this would have been possible. (Yes, by the words "without me" this means everyone, but I am speaking for myself from a first-person perspective now.)

On the other hand, I have a problem when they reveal to me that I can give feedback, which is ignored in the end, I then play, the roadmap is changed in such a way that it no longer corresponds to the KS video, on which they have worked for 3 years and out of sudden stopped, for example (proof of this in their KS video from 2016 with timestamp: https://youtu.be/TyWZsuLmloo?t=446 ) and then quit because the feedback was not heared.

 

On the next point, you've got it wrong - KS people (and those who bought from the shop on the website the support packs) don't pay for a subscription for the beta.  (Here their last call for the supporter packs to buy - https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/19464-last-chance-to-get-a-supporter-pack-august-17/) The players have paid a tidy sum depending on the package (besides the energy and time spent) because they believe in the product and the company that implements it. I'm pretty sure quite a few of them just put up with it, but look at the product with one eye. After all, it hasn't been "officially" released yet. To give you an idea of the sums I'm talking about - here's a quick link:  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949863330/dual-universe-civilization-building-sci-fi-mmorpg

 

The developers of Ashes of Creation and Pantheon got these points right: players give feedback on something the companies show and also implement the suggestions for improvement. NQ can take a leaf out of these role models' book when it comes to transparent communication. 

 

1 hour ago, Dimencia said:

There was no guarantee that paying means the dev team will do exactly what they want. 

And here you are wrong again. After a KS campaign has ended, the original text may no longer be changed on the KS page. This is explicitly stated by KS and the creators of these crowdfunding projects must adhere to it, otherwise they could face legal action. Chronicles of Elyria has shown how not to do it. (Source to CoE and class action lawsuit:  https://massivelyop.com/2020/07/07/chronicles-of-elyria-backers-have-now-hired-a-lawyer-to-file-a-class-action-suit/ )

 

IMPORTANT: Of course, they do NOT have to fulfil all this now, because the game is not officially released yet. But what I'm saying in the first place is that they can't just do what they want, they are bound by obligations. It's not that simple that you can write that in one sentence.

 

1 hour ago, Dimencia said:

And I am quite sure that if the game were rolled back to prior to 0.23, it wouldn't help the player counts, because prior to 0.23 is when most people quit. 

 

I cannot take subjective perception as generally valid objective facts. That's why I simply stick to the statement that since the 0.23 patch, the critical threads have increased significantly in this forum. That's all we can say without deviating from the facts.

 

1 hour ago, Dimencia said:

If the industry and PVP updates weren't enough to bring them back, then what next? 

0.23 was released without informing the community. The shock came as a surprise and caught many cold. 

 

The PvP revamp update "Territorial Warfare" is still to come, which is why I think many people, including myself, are looking at what they want to change. They cannot and must not afford a second fiasco like the one with 0.23. 

 

Please don't get me wrong. I am trying to explain what the problem is. I do realise that DU needs new players. But it must also be clear that the old players, who made the project possible in the first place, are already being driven away in the development phase, mind you. And that is a deficit that must not be allowed to continue. I know that it is not easy for either side. But the elephant in the room cannot be ignored.

 

Thank you for reading through carefully, should you have done so.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, SirJohn85 said:

Basically, it is not my job as a customer in the first place to have to explain to a company how they sell their products. On the other hand, I am happy when they let me participate in the process...

 

 

Long quote, trimmed it out but.  I understand that they have an obligation to release the game due to Kickstarter, and an obligation to vaguely include the concepts they claimed on the page.  They have done so, and will continue doing so, or face legal action (of course).  There is no obligation for these gamedevs to listen to non-gamedevs about how to make their game, though, just because those people paid money.  

 

Now I do understand the feeling that, NQ is not listening to anyone's feedback, for anything, ever.  Because they're totally not.  

But they're not obligated to, either.  They are gamedevs who assumedly have some experience in this field, those of us who are not MMO gamedevs need to extend a bit of trust.  If it's frustrating for a kickstarter backer, because something is not implemented the way they wanted, as long as it is implemented, then NQ has fulfilled their obligations.  

 

Hopping onto the kickstarter, beta, etc early doesn't make opinions about gamedev any more or less valid.  New players are just as useful for getting feedback, if not significantly moreso because they don't have a lot of hangups and old grudges about things NQ has done in the past.  

 

So yes, if we want this game to be good?  Ignore the old players who are just grumpy old men (I'm one of them most of the time), bring in new players, and see how they like it.  The old players in a beta are never going to be happy - an MMO is a huge investment of time and effort, and even a small change will mess something up or invalidate someone's efforts.  Eventually all of the old players will be salty about something, or will get bored, and that's that, and NQ is under no obligation to do what those cranky old men want when they start wishing for the good ole days where they didn't have to buy schematics. 

Any game, especially an MMO, needs a constant influx of new players to provide fresh feedback and to offset the number of players that finished or got bored with the game.  

 

Only thing is, I'm pretty sure NQ won't listen to new players either.  So, let's just hope they know what they're doing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Dimencia said:

Long quote, trimmed it out but.  I understand that they have an obligation to release the game due to Kickstarter, and an obligation to vaguely include the concepts they claimed on the page.  They have done so, and will continue doing so, or face legal action (of course).  There is no obligation for these gamedevs to listen to non-gamedevs about how to make their game, though, just because those people paid money.  

 

Now I do understand the feeling that, NQ is not listening to anyone's feedback, for anything, ever.  Because they're totally not.  

But they're not obligated to, either.  They are gamedevs who assumedly have some experience in this field, those of us who are not MMO gamedevs need to extend a bit of trust.  If it's frustrating for a kickstarter backer, because something is not implemented the way they wanted, as long as it is implemented, then NQ has fulfilled their obligations.  

 

Hopping onto the kickstarter, beta, etc early doesn't make opinions about gamedev any more or less valid.  New players are just as useful for getting feedback, if not significantly moreso because they don't have a lot of hangups and old grudges about things NQ has done in the past.  

 

So yes, if we want this game to be good?  Ignore the old players who are just grumpy old men (I'm one of them most of the time), bring in new players, and see how they like it.  The old players in a beta are never going to be happy - an MMO is a huge investment of time and effort, and even a small change will mess something up or invalidate someone's efforts.  Eventually all of the old players will be salty about something, or will get bored, and that's that, and NQ is under no obligation to do what those cranky old men want when they start wishing for the good ole days where they didn't have to buy schematics. 

Any game, especially an MMO, needs a constant influx of new players to provide fresh feedback and to offset the number of players that finished or got bored with the game.  

 

Only thing is, I'm pretty sure NQ won't listen to new players either.  So, let's just hope they know what they're doing

In principle, they don't have to listen to the players - but it is somehow... Hypocritical if you offer it and don't do it in the end. This shows a lot about the company's mission statement and what I as a customer should think of this company.

 

Fun Fact: It is JC's first mmorpg and game. He comes from a scientific background, as he said himself several times in his videos.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dimencia said:

But they're not obligated to, either.  They are gamedevs who assumedly have some experience in this field, those of us who are not MMO gamedevs need to extend a bit of trust.  If it's frustrating for a kickstarter backer, because something is not implemented the way they wanted, as long as it is implemented, then NQ has fulfilled their obligations.  

actually not true -- NQ has never made a game before, and the CEO/Creative Director/"Leader of all" has never even worked in game development before. NQ's leadership has as much game design experience as anyone around here (and in some cases even less).

 

the big name designers they did hire are no longer with the company ? 

Quote

Any game, especially an MMO, needs a constant influx of new players to provide fresh feedback and to offset the number of players that finished or got bored with the game.  

Yeah i agree with that general sentiment -- but it isn't so easy as just throwing out ads.

 

you need ROI for ads, and that means keeping new players on subs for more than a month.

 

Consider who DU will be running ads in competition against -- games that have solid ROI or a much higher retail price. Word of mouth is still the best form of advertising -- if the game were worth the price of the sub, there'd be some level of growth from word of mouth and social media, but DU doesn't have either of those at a meaningful scale.

 

they can't afford to run ads at a loss -- if they get 50k new players but 25k drop of after just one month of revenue (which is likely optimistic)...there's no way they're revenue positive in the competitive game ad market. 

10 minutes ago, Dimencia said:

Only thing is, I'm pretty sure NQ won't listen to new players either.  So, let's just hope they know what they're doing

from what i can tell, they don't even listen to their own employees. there's threads that talk about this at length. JC has a fragile ego, he wants "yes-men", constant crunch, yet has no real design vision or experience. is anyone shocked that the PhD academic that wanted to make a complex MMO as his first ever project has issues with arrogance...?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

from what i can tell, they don't even listen to their own employees

Its actualy not that simple. Like not all actors involved are per se NQ employees.

 

It may not be widely known fact, but NQ outsouring quite a bit. First -- marketing (speaking of advertising strategy) -- with at least 3 different companies (HomeRun PR, MSM, WarningUp). Extent is unclear, but interestengly, press contacts on official website give only those outsourcers, no one from NQ proper. Second -- support. Last summer, before Beta, I believe, NQ actualy had opened position of some sort of support supervisor on welcometothejungle.com with task to control/coordinate all other (oursourced) GM/support stuff.

 

So its also a bit question of company structure, compomises and priorities. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...