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Builder robots for large scale builds

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7 hours ago, 0something0 said:

As for the whole "dont want to he ctaftsmen", you people dont appreciate the art of making the whole thing work. Security is also a concern and its very difficult to program automated turrets. Besides, there can be limits so one person cant build large structures or machines in reasonable amounts of time, or so they emit large amounts of heat which require vulnerable facilities to get rid of. Besides, this kind of "factory" automation only requires that robots can craft and interact with inventory constructs. 

It not difficult, it obvious very LIMIT no mater what how you good in programing . Oho i doubt about this "factory" , as now we know it only can build space ship but how big space ship can it make ? Also i didnt see it say anything about construct a building yet ... or already but i dont know ? 

Ah anyway if one man can build an empire by automation why an Org cant build a star domination empire by only sleep and let automation do everything. Nah

NQ had said : Solo player can do many thing but not everything . And Automation will help them do everything. Sad

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3 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

Ah anyway if one man can build an empire by automation why an Org cant build a star domination empire by only sleep and let automation do everything. Nah

How should one person ever be able to do this?

One person can’t be everywhere, so how do you want do solo defend several constructions? How do you want arrack solo enemy constructions?

Automated turrets are not as good as a player, so you will have a really hard time to protect every construct only with turrets.

Also, you forget that there is more then 1 player in DU: if everyone has access to something then it will not change the overall balance. A corp will still be way more powerful then a one-man-show.

Also there are several corps, so every corp has the ability to build large, so everything that automation would do is make things bigger.

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1 hour ago, Takao said:

Automated turrets are not as good as a player, so you will have a really hard time to protect every construct only with turrets.

IF automate turret hit chance is 1%, you only have to build 50 - 100 turret. And how can we build so much turret ? Automation build unit. And how do we got resource for it. Automation mining will do it. And if automation mining cant got enough resource you need ? Just build more automation mining.

Left aside the scaning because that job dont require a lot people.

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Good like trying to place so many turrets.

They all will need power and the power generation will consume fuel which you have to bring to the base.

Even if you build drones bringing the fuel to your base(s), you still need to protect them.

 

If you build the turrets spread out, then they can't all cover themselves.

If you cramp them together, they will block themselves and can be taken out with AoE weapons easily.

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41 minutes ago, Takao said:

Good like trying to place so many turrets.

They all will need power and the power generation will consume fuel which you have to bring to the base.

Even if you build drones bringing the fuel to your base(s), you still need to protect them.

 

If you build the turrets spread out, then they can't all cover themselves.

If you cramp them together, they will block themselves and can be taken out with AoE weapons easily.

Err what about shield Dome. And if drone cant bring a lot a same time, just store a lot of them.

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Shield domes will not help you defending your base actively.

First we don’t know the details on who they will be implemented.

Even if they would allow you to shoot out of the bubble, you could just shoot the shield from far away, without the risk of getting shot be the turrets.

1 hour ago, ShioriStein said:

just store a lot of them

Then you need to set the turrets up manually after they got destroyed in the middle of a fight -> no

Also you need to be at the location at the first place to do so.

 

conquering and maintaining large areas with automated mining will simply not work

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2 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

IF automate turret hit chance is 1%, you only have to build 50 - 100 turret. And how can we build so much turret ? Automation build unit. And how do we got resource for it. Automation mining will do it. And if automation mining cant got enough resource you need ? Just build more automation mining.

Left aside the scaning because that job dont require a lot people.

Even if most people have good intentions in the end I see heavy automation going down something like this : need more ill just build more automation units I don't really need help just more automation. 

 

As I said be for that seems like a solo player game to me and not what NQ is going for in a player interactive and immerse mmo game.

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Automation =! Singleplayer

 

player interaction and automation aren't mutually exclusive. For example, parts could have a "maintenance" where parts wear down or break randomly. Or have it so say I want to make a automated factory that makes a ship from scratch. So, I need to set up machines to mine the ores, refine the ore, shape the ore into parts, and assemble the ship. All these process would require different people with different expertise to make it work.   

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I dont really know how to say more now.

I just argue with other guy who say automation is not unbalance and provide him with evidence that automation is OP and solo way too much.

But then they only see my last reply without read my first reply and say like i'm protect for automation mechanism . 

Well in the end we wont have full - big scale - automation so we should close the toppic and let it dieddddddddddddddddd.

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On 24.1.2018 at 6:55 AM, ShioriStein said:

I just argue with other guy who say automation is not unbalance and provide him with evidence that automation is OP and solo way too much.

You made two arguments against mining elements for ships (which would also result in mining drones and therefore the automation of mining), which are definitiv not "evidence that automation is OP":

1. New players need something to do and earn money after they start playing DU. Manual mining would this be.

That's a nice way of saying "there is nothing to do for new players except mining", which wouldn't be a nice game loop at all.

Also there is (see below) still scanning and trianguling, which should be more time consuming then the actual "hold LMB" progress of extracting the resources.

 

2. New players would gain experience while mining.

What experience are you talking about here? Experience in holding LMB? Even with mining drones / bases you still need to scan and triangular the resource deposits manually, which new players still can do and still earn money with it (sell the locations). THAT would be the part where new players get actual experience in how to effectivly scan resource deposits, because that would also include moving around in non-save areas.

 

You still couldn't come up with a realistic solution that would allow a single person or a small group to effectively protect serveral mining drones or several static constructs.

Spamming turrets is not a real solution here, as this will cost a significant amount of resources to build them and, in case they are mounted on the drones, will increase the weight of the drone.

Also:
"When everyone is super, nobody is".

Which mean, that when everyone has access to something, that something is not realy OP. It may be a "game changer", but because everyone has (acces to) it, it's a constant, which mean you can leave it out of your calculation.

 

A single person would still need to:

  • Scan a resource deposit
  • (Optional) Triangulate the exact position.
  • Send the mining drones to that location (after building them of course)
  • If the exact position of the deposit is unknown you need to mine away a lot more
  • After the drones are full you need to bring the resources somewhere and process them
  • That somewhere need to be build and protected

 

Then about the actual topic here, building robots:
We know that there will be blueprints, but we don't know if there are blueprints for static constructs and if you build a construct in a factory if that construct directly spawns at the factory or if you can move it disassembled, like in Eve.

As we will be able to extend an existing construct with new cores, it would be possible to build a large building piece by piece by first assemble the separate parts in factories and then add them together at the building side.

I don't know I would want to leave a building robot alone with building a new base, while I'm not around...

 

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2 hours ago, Takao said:

You made two arguments against mining elements for ships (which would also result in mining drones and therefore the automation of mining), which are definitiv not "evidence that automation is OP":

Well yeah i do agree it maynot "evidence" but it still give we some big view about this then.

2 hours ago, Takao said:

1. New players need something to do and earn money after they start playing DU. Manual mining would this be.

That's a nice way of saying "there is nothing to do for new players except mining", which wouldn't be a nice game loop at all.

Also there is (see below) still scanning and trianguling, which should be more time consuming then the actual "hold LMB" progress of extracting the resources.

Well ah yes mining still the main bone of the game isnt it ? It provide into the market/economic the resource which use for everything, without mining or mining be take over by something it will make a great impact on the game.
I didnt say all they do is mining, like someone say, you can do everything if you are smart and lucky. And also i dont think scanning is a problem after all does it ? I can train my self to more about profession scaning ( we got skill tree) and if you smart or lucky we still can found the vein easily.

 

2 hours ago, Takao said:

2. New players would gain experience while mining.

What experience are you talking about here? Experience in holding LMB? Even with mining drones / bases you still need to scan and triangular the resource deposits manually, which new players still can do and still earn money with it (sell the locations). THAT would be the part where new players get actual experience in how to effectivly scan resource deposits, because that would also include moving around in non-save areas.

Well you know there are a lot meaning for experience ? Not experience in mining but other aspect as well. If you are newbie you can only see tutorial from youtube and from begin at Ark Ship. But with Mining/Building Operation it will give your tutorial about the game and also the situation in game as well. And there will also something you can learn only by do in real work in game but cant learn from youtube or tutorial on the ship. If i can learn about everything due Internet and tutorial in game i can player EvE properly now (sad i give up because i dont know what to do aside mining ).
Also how they sell the place if the client decide to rather take it from a newbie or they dont even trust a newbie. A newbie come near you and say: "Hey hey, i got a location where got rare ore, you wanna it ? I will sell you for bla bla quanta" . And there will 3 type of client, first will dont care because it maybe a scam or even a trap or even this just another beggar, second will be either pirate or someone will take the risk and if they found out this real value location they will take it from the newbie, who will stop them, hmm nobody because it just a newbie, if he lucky a care bear org will help him; And the third will be "kind" and "follow the rule" client, if this location is value they will "pay" for it but of course let's barter, if they are kind they will buy it with somewhat good price because it will help the newbie. But you know there not a lot of them there.

So in the end, i want to say that i dont think full automation is a bad idea or it iwll damage the game too much. But i think NQ want to take the majority of the game. Now maybe the game just 10k or 15k but in long term if they can keep 8 of 10 newbie stay and play the game they will choose to keep it. Automation is good but i dont think it is good for newbie, yes you can say they still do thing, vvv, vvv but in 10 newbie log in how many will stay ? Do you think more than half of newbie who join the game will think the same like you and can do thing you just say ? I just talk as i was a new member who didnt to something ( but i'm really in that situation :)) ). Not everyone is genius and a good player, so let's do hard work because people is Masochistic , love hard working and dont want easy working :)).

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15 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

Well ah yes mining still the main bone of the game isnt it ? It provide into the market/economic the resource which use for everything, without mining or mining be take over by something it will make a great impact on the game.

Yes, that is certainly true, BUT mining consists of two parts: Scanning and extracting the scanned recources.

With the ability to build mining drones and stations, the scanning part would still be unchanged, but the extracting part would be changed from "holding LMB" to:

  • designing and building mining ships, drones and stations
  • programming mining drones
  • defending those mining bases and drones

Of course only after you have actually enough resources to build mining ships and drones.

15 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

I didnt say all they do is mining, like someone say, you can do everything if you are smart and lucky. And also i dont think scanning is a problem after all does it ? I can train my self to more about profession scaning ( we got skill tree) and if you smart or lucky we still can found the vein easily.

Scanning should be more important then the resource extraction itself and also not only a case of "how high is my characters scanning skill" but rather more an actuall player skill.

15 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

Well you know there are a lot meaning for experience ? Not experience in mining but other aspect as well. If you play solo you can only see tutorial from youtube and from begin at Ark Ship. But with Mining/Building Operation it will give your tutorial about the game and also the situation in game as well. And there will also something you can learn only by do in real work in game but cant learn from youtube or tutorial on the ship.

And why do you need the game mechanic of holding LMB to obtain those skills?

15 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

Also how they sell the place if the client decide to rather take it from a newbie or they dont even trust a newbie.

One solution would be, that scan results are ingame items.

Without buying it, you can see everything, except the exact location of the deposit.

15 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

Do you think more than half of newbie who join the game will think the same like you and can do thing you just say ?

Why shouldn't they?

They can still mine, even with mining ships and drones...

Also, after manual mining for their first ship, they could build themselfes a mining ship and mine more...

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Truly i give up, okay let this post die. Let NQ choose which method they want add to the game.

Let it dieeee dont reply

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There is one thing that you all might have forgotten (or it has been discussed so much already that its redundant to say it), and that is performance. I have no doubt in my mind that the LUA scripting has to have some sort of limit to not stress the server. I mean it already must keep track of 10s of thousands of players and then it suddenly have to keep track of an exponential number of highly advanced machinery?

Maybe I'm overlooking something here, but apart from the threat that automation could pose for the new players and the economy (this is afterall a highly debated discussion even in real life), but as much as I would like to have advanced machinery, I just dont think the game could handle it - maybe it could run a dosen such scripts, maybe hundreds, but thousands? And believe me if it was possible, everyone would want one, and NovaQuark aims for a player base in the millions.

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12 hours ago, Rick Windmiller said:

There is one thing that you all might have forgotten (or it has been discussed so much already that its redundant to say it), and that is performance. I have no doubt in my mind that the LUA scripting has to have some sort of limit to not stress the server. I mean it already must keep track of 10s of thousands of players and then it suddenly have to keep track of an exponential number of highly advanced machinery?

You indeed missed a piece of information ;).

NQ made the choice to run Lua code on client side (and with some limitations) so it doesn't impact server performance (except maybe for the results of the scripts: actions, logs, etc.).

 

~ Merwyn

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