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Sensors / Sensor model

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Hi!

 

Does anyone know how and what kind of sensors might be included in the game? I've heard radar mentioned on youtube but that is a very general term. Furthermore, it would be interesting to know if the available sensors use anykind of physically motivated sensor model.

 

In more detail:

Will there be a difference between active (e.g. Radar) and passive (e.g. IR) sensors?

What about choosing frequencies? For example, can I build a medium frequency radar with 3 MHz for long range detection but low resolution (100 meters) and a higher frequency one for shorter range but higher resolution? That would enable the construction of tracking and fire-control radars to aim at specific parts of a construct.

Radar range is set by output power, gain of the antennae and the radar-cross-section of the target (ignoring pathloss and pattern propagation). Any chance this will be modelled...?

Active sensors like Radar are easily detected (roughly twice as far as the radar range), so radar warning receivers and electronic surveillance/support measures would come in handy.

Passive sensors only give the direction to the target, not the range. So one needs to do cross bearing, preferable with several ships.

And how about faster-than-light sensors? A radar with 1 lightyear range that gives me a target position from two years ago would be slightly useless.

 

So, are there any informations available on such topics?

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I think your over thinking the radars/detection. Whatever sensor type they chose to use, calculating those ranges for multiple ships each with possibly multiple sensors would make space flight unplayable if done realistically.

 

I expect it to be more like X sensor will see a contact at X distance.

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In space, you don't need Radar in the traditional ping-pong setup of it, you need Optic Sensors, essentially really smooth mirrored surfaces that can pick up anything.

But in any case, here's the Radar Unit. It's on Twitter.

Cojw6VLW8AAexbb.jpg


 

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In space, you don't need Radar in the traditional ping-pong setup of it, you need Optic Sensors, essentially really smooth mirrored surfaces that can pick up anything.

 

But in any case, here's the Radar Unit. It's on Twitter.

 

Cojw6VLW8AAexbb.jpg

 

 

Most radars would work still. Probably better than they do in an atmosphere since there will be little to no refraction.

 

IR and ES sensors would work the best. Only problem with FTL speeds is both are slower than light.

 

Using those kinds of sensors would open the possibility for a ship or fleet to get into weapons range before you knew they were there.

 

The books Deep Space Star Carrier cover this problem in detail.

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Most radars would work still. Probably better than they do in an atmosphere since there will be little to no refraction.

 

IR and ES sensors would work the best. Only problem with FTL speeds is both are slower than light.

 

Using those kinds of sensors would open the possibility for a ship or fleet to get into weapons range before you knew they were there.

 

The books Deep Space Star Carrier cover this problem in detail.

Well, the book series The Lost Fleet by John G. Hemry covers it best.

 

Radars have to send a signal and wait for it to bounce back.

 

Optic Sensors only have to receive light. And we do got optic sensors in space these days, like the Hubble Telescope. Optic Sensors are like that, only in a more compact form. Not powerful enough to see in deep space when scaled down for a ship, but for a star system? Then they are perfect.

 

Also, here's the 3D art of the Radar Unit from Twitter : http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/static.www.novaquark.com/marmoset/Radar.html  

 

Those lights do seem to resemble optic sensors.

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I haven't read that one.

 

It looks more like sensor sweet. The antenna resemble the HF/VHF antenna we currently use. The black circles would be the optics. Visible and IR. The four sections with the dots look like phased array radars.

 

I'm not sure if that's how that will have it work in game but all of that tech is being used now. Looks like they just took what ships use now, mashed it together, and made it look like it goes in space instead of the ocean.

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I haven't read that one.

 

It looks more like sensor sweet. The antenna resemble the HF/VHF antenna we currently use. The black circles would be the optics. Visible and IR. The four sections with the dots look like phased array radars.

 

I'm not sure if that's how that will have it work in game but all of that tech is being used now. Looks like they just took what ships use now, mashed it together, and made it look like it goes in space instead of the ocean.

That's my guess as well. They got an All-in-One approach on sensors / radars.

 

The real question is, how tall this thing will be and if we'll have to deduce a ship's mast's height :P

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That's my guess as well. They got an All-in-One approach on sensors / radars.

The real question is, how tall this thing will be and if we'll have to deduce a ship's mast's height :P

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/US_Navy_110918-N-BC134-014_The_Arleigh_Burke-class_guided-missile_destroyer_USS_Halsey_%28DDG_97%29_transits_the_Pacific_Ocean.jpg/1920px-US_Navy_110918-N-BC134-014_The_Arleigh_Burke-class_guided-missile_destroyer_USS_Halsey_%28DDG_97%29_transits_the_Pacific_Ocean.jpg

 

There's a good picture of the USS HALSEY. It shows how big the Spy-1D is.

 

Hopefully they have figured out how to make them smaller in the future. If not these will only fit on big ships.

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Sensors are such a generic term.

 

I'm sure to begin with, sensors will be used to detect an avatar and perform something like opening a door.  In their most basic sense, they detect either an avatar or a core unit, and emit a response that can be used by a DPU.  More than likely, they will detect these things in a given geometric volume of space.

 

As a builder/programmer, I would like to have the ability to adjust the size and shape of that geometric volume.

 

An example would be something like a wireless access point.  I can adjust its power to regulate its range, and I can purchase different antennas to adjust the shape.  Anything from omnidirectional, to hemisphere, to cone, to a beam (for some sort of tripwire).

 

Once the above is programmed, then we can focus on the "space warfare" stuff.

 

Optical, IR, ES, and Radar could be variables that could be added to the basic sensor.

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Something to keep in mind is packet updates of long range targets.

 

Depending upon the network algorithym and number of players in a sector, those updates could be a few seconds old.

 

What you see on your display may no longer be there.  They could have "warped" someplace else, and you wouldn't know that until the next packet update for that specific Ship ID.

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Sensors are such a generic term.

 

I'm sure to begin with, sensors will be used to detect an avatar and perform something like opening a door.  In their most basic sense, they detect either an avatar or a core unit, and emit a response that can be used by a DPU.  More than likely, they will detect these things in a given geometric volume of space.

 

As a builder/programmer, I would like to have the ability to adjust the size and shape of that geometric volume.

 

An example would be something like a wireless access point.  I can adjust its power to regulate its range, and I can purchase different antennas to adjust the shape.  Anything from omnidirectional, to hemisphere, to cone, to a beam (for some sort of tripwire).

 

Once the above is programmed, then we can focus on the "space warfare" stuff.

 

Optical, IR, ES, and Radar could be variables that could be added to the basic sensor.

Well, technically, in space you would only need a thermal scanner. I mean... it's cold out there. Ships are hot, but an otpical sensor combines IR and ES together. And for something to hide from IR in space, it means it can hide from radar with far more ease.

 

 

As for scalability of a readout, who knows. My guess is we'll get an R&D machine to upgrade our Schematics of Elements for the game. You build a sensor unit, you upgrade it, now it has more reach but not higher definition, it can tell you if something out there. Someone else may get a sensor unit via R&D that can detect guns and / or crew size by identifying player signatures and the list goes on.

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Sensors are such a generic term.

 

I'm sure to begin with, sensors will be used to detect an avatar and perform something like opening a door. In their most basic sense, they detect either an avatar or a core unit, and emit a response that can be used by a DPU. More than likely, they will detect these things in a given geometric volume of space.

 

As a builder/programmer, I would like to have the ability to adjust the size and shape of that geometric volume.

 

An example would be something like a wireless access point. I can adjust its power to regulate its range, and I can purchase different antennas to adjust the shape. Anything from omnidirectional, to hemisphere, to cone, to a beam (for some sort of tripwire).

 

Once the above is programmed, then we can focus on the "space warfare" stuff.

 

Optical, IR, ES, and Radar could be variables that could be added to the basic sensor.

It is a generic term. Even a TV remotes work using RF sensors. At least the older ones. I also don't see the Devs adding in really complicated calculations for them either. That's why it will have to work on a volume around it.

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essentially really smooth mirrored surfaces that can pick up anything.

 

because mirrors are sooo good at absorbing radiation  :rolleyes:

an ideal sensor is perfectly black in the spectrum it wants to detect in, not mirrored :P

how would it detect radiation if its not by absorbing it? :P

 

 

Those lights do seem to resemble optic sensors.

 

why would an optic sensor glow? its a receiver, not a sender, any emission its creating flow directly back into the readout as noise :P

 

 

It is a generic term. Even a TV remotes work using RF sensors. At least the older ones. I also don't see the Devs adding in really complicated calculations for them either. That's why it will have to work on a volume around it.

 

if at all its new remotes using RF, old ones were wired, IR or ultrasonic.

 

 

 

i'd personally just scrap all this "thats infrared! thats radar! thats blah!" stuff and just abstract it to emissions and detection sensibilities (maybe with some abstracted spectrum mechanic to introduce another dimension)

sum of all emissions gets distance attenuated and compared to the sensors (spectrum modified) sensitivity.

 

unify all the emissions (and reflections from active scanners, they look the same anyway in this simplified model) instead of saying "thats this very special narrow area of EM and this is this completely different narrow EM band!" ....

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Most radars would work still. Probably better than they do in an atmosphere since there will be little to no refraction.

 

IR and ES sensors would work the best. Only problem with FTL speeds is both are slower than light.

 

Using those kinds of sensors would open the possibility for a ship or fleet to get into weapons range before you knew they were there.

 

The books Deep Space Star Carrier cover this problem in detail.

 

Could you elaborate a little? I've never read them and the internet doesn't explain the books in much detail.

 

FTL sensors, whatever the scifi explanation, will have to be very expensive. These should be the kind of things you only put on your massive capital ships to detect another fleet coming at you from a far off planet (or another system entirely).

 

unify all the emissions (and reflections from active scanners, they look the same anyway in this simplified model) instead of saying "thats this very special narrow area of EM and this is this completely different narrow EM band!" ....

 

I like this. Stuff like turning off engines should just affect your regular sublight sensors by some percentage, not a specific "the sensors detect nothing in the infrared coming from that ship" kind of stuff - at least in the code.

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Could you elaborate a little? I've never read them and the internet doesn't explain the books in much detail.

 

FTL sensors, whatever the scifi explanation, will have to be very expensive. These should be the kind of things you only put on your massive capital ships to detect another fleet coming at you from a far off planet (or another system entirely)

All current ways of detecting like that use some wavelength of the EM spectrum. This can't travel faster than light. Even though that speed is somewhat relative.

 

If a ship could travel faster it would appear to be in two places. If it could even get close to C (speed of light) it would seam to suddenly disappear and reappear or it could look like it extends from point A to point B. We have no way of truly testing this since we can't get anywhere near that kind of speed irl.

 

I believe Star Trek uses something in subspace but I'm not familiar with it.

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An Alcubierre drive will create a gravitational wake that could be detected.

Gravitational waves still propogate at c, a ship coming towards you can't be detected.

 

FTL sensors will need to be a completely scifi explanation as in science it seems like there isn't anything to detect them.

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Simple solution: ignore relativistic effects and signal delay.

 

Explaining why some things are affected by it and others not is harder than just dropping the issue altogether.

 

Related to that sensors could have limited time resolution, though.

Like a short range targetting sensor gives "real time" data (image frequency = server tick rate) but a long range system scanner gives only one scan every 5 minutes (arbitary number is arbitary, "long").

So the long range awacs ship would maybe be incapable of hitting anything close to it because its scan rate is too low to give usable targetting solutions for moving, maneuvering targets

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To be honest,

 

I don't see the need for FTL sensors, or creating the lore behind them.

 

In my opinion, all combat should take place in sub-light speeds.

 

You shouldn't be aware of inbound attackers until they drop out of FTL.

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