himeix

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. If there is a unified market API system, people WILL abuse it to make bots, and then even the people who don't want bots will have to make bots just to keep up. I stand by my suggestion that NQ (eventually, as it is not a developmental priority) provide a way for market owners to export their market data in a controlled way, while also providing adequate protection to prevent bot use with this data. Perhaps the data would be output with a 15 minute delay, thus limiting the ability of bots to compete.

To add to this: Speaking as someone involved in the creation of such financial systems - what one sees today in the stock market is an evolution driven system based on needs - namely volume and the 24 hour trading cycle.
 
DU, for a long time, won't have the first, and well, unless we are talking planets to scale and time zones and rotation, we will never need to over come the second. So we will never need anything so complex as the real world.
 
As for my 2 cents on this topic - FWIW I agree with NQ on development priorities - this isn't a huge one.
 
Of course,  I would love to see these sorts of things IN-GAME so we can build constructs that display information to people, because, emergent game play etc. I think in that spirit it should be firmly limited to providing the means (read-only basically) for players to record local observations about the game world, and then it is up to us as developer-players to build our own in-game solutions which provide services to players.
 
NQ should not have to do our work for us. Think of them as Platform-as-a-Service. You've got to do the SaaS side yourself.
 
(Upon reflection - really what we should be asking for is permission to create API's in game, and for NQ to provide a very simple GET "web-service" that lets us grab only the limited basic game data which is relevant - namely some location information (where am I in the game world), Org names/ids, Character id number (not names - that's our job), Object ID. Really, anything else is something we, the players, could observe and track ourselves, including making connections and relationships between those things.)
 
While we are at it - ideally, we'd make the market mechanisms for the game, not NQ - they should provide the simple mechanism of being able to exchange things between two people. It should be up to us to build trading systems to handle stuff once the Alioth colony grows beyond what basic barter and coin exchange can provide. That's half the fun of an emergent sandbox game - like real life, working out innovative solutions to problems using the tools at your disposal).

Having a market API won't make logging into the game pointless because you will still have to log in to go retrieve your items from wherever they are. It's not like it's going to automate putting them into your inventory automatically. You'll still have to interact, at the very least, with someone in game to go get those things for you. 
 
In Eve the reason there are so many market bots isn't because they're providing an API interface, it's because they're using a 3rd party utility to collect that data from the client logs (which Eve has an option for exporting a spreadsheet), and then using bots to interact with the UI behind the scenes to automate their trading activities. Something that isn't allowed in Eve, it's just a byproduct of the way their client is written. 
 
From an API perspective, they could reduce the ability for bots to exploit the market features by requiring manual captchas or some type of human authentication before allowing a market order to be submitted. I mean, every time we do something on the community site we have to submit a manual captcha test, so why would it be that much more intrusive to have to do it from your phone before submitting a market order?
 
That doesn't even cover the topic of rate-limiting API requests (Eve's API only allows a full retrieval once per hour), and metrics gathering solutions to determine if someone is a human or a bot. 
 
 
In fact, by not giving the ability to access the market information either in an exportable format or via an API, it means we're going to be stuck aggregating that data by hand into excel spreadsheets, which doesn't sound particularly -fun- to me.
 
It also means we'll never get cool things like live market tickers on websites or twitch streams, or notifications on our phones that one of our items sold. 

You assume the TU is a robust organisation. This is awkward.
 
Okay, putting it like "I want to make a "killboard" for Brokers" sounds way more interesting and I'm with you on that. But not market bots. Heck, if you make such a platform that keeps track of who sells more, people may be able to use it find out who's "the Emplyee of the Month" in a transparent way, or even people using said platform to showcase what marketplace sells larger volumes of goods. So, kudos, if you can pull it off. Likewise, it could be used to verify the credibility of a person who claims they are brokers for a station, by checking their "killboard" on their sales and such, so, it could work very well indeed.
 
I know what you mean by "some players are more equal than others", but we need to not make programming sound like conjuring a spell. Lua is perhaps the most simplistic scripting language there is - some would argue it's C#, and those people have played too much Space Engineers and need to stop exploding pistons on their face.
 
 
And yeah, NQ should prioritise the main game first, develop API keys later. It's better for everyone that way.
 
 
Cheers!

Additional 9: "Because the APIs will only provide public information." We collect info? Yes. Can bots also collect them? Yes but a little bit harder. Here is the point: We don't want to see hundreds of bot put stress on the server, so we provide you one.
 
As for the Lua. I'm now using SystemVerilog and C++. I know learning Lua is easy but it's always easier to someone. All players are equal, but some players are more equal than others.
 
For the disagreement on economic scheme. Time will prove all.
 
1) I don't access marketplace and i don't ignore brokers. I just tell everyone which broker should they choose.
2) Collectivism, right. But you have to trade. You have to pay for something. Or your org should be as robust as the TU.
3) Additional 9: "Because the APIs will only provide public information."
 
I don't want to build a economic empire. Never wanted, not wanting nor going to want. I'm a programmer, not a investor. I have no interest in investment. I just want to build the stage, sit at the front row and watch their show.
 
You might have seen the NQ's reply. Let them work out a solution on anti-bot. We may re-discuss this topic 2 years later.
 
------
 
I fully respect the opinion of NQ. If they think the platform should not exist. I will give up the whole project and destroy all existing source code.
No matter how contradictory our positions are, our goal is at least the same: To build a better DUniverse.

It seems important to clarify a few things
 
- Why Novaquark implemented LUA script in Dual Universe:
 
The main goal is not to give a tremendous advantage to developers.
First, because LUA implementation has been decided for enabling more creativity freedom regarding the design of constructs like spaceship, not to automatize everything with bots. In short, we want for those having development skills to be able to use their talent  and be recognized for their contribution in the community, not to become the masterminds in control of everything.
Second, because there will be probably limits to what you can do with LUA scripts, for game balance.
 
- About Wallstreet and NASDAQ examples:
 
The fact that it exists in real life doesn't mean it's a perfect system and should be copied exactly the same way in our game. The real world has flaws, that's a fact. We probably won't create a perfect system, but we can at least learn from the mistakes made in the real world. We know that almost all transactions in real time have been automatized with advanced bots reacting to the microsecond at Wallstreet. Is this really a good thing? everyone can have a different opinion on this. Is it a fun system? it's safe to assume it's not, because nearly no human action is required anymore. If it's not a fun system, then it might become questionable to implement this in a game, as the primary goal of a game is to have fun, not necessarily to copy exactly what exist in the real world. Yes, we aim to offer a realistic game world to players... to the limit where it starts to hurt the game experience.
 
Best regards,
Nyzaltar

I would like the ability to manage my market orders and other things via an app on my phone, so I would much rather have an API that allows me to do that than a limited one that only allows read access to my market orders.
 
I mean it's 2017 and you still can't manage your skill queue offline in Eve, I don't particularly understand the reasoning behind that anymore. 
 
There are plenty of things we'll need to be logged in to do, like building/prospecting/mining/etc, but do I really need to have a gaming laptop with me everywhere I go to make updates to my orders or move some skills around my training queue from time to time?

in EVE such an API is valuable and good, because there are NPC stations visible to EVERYONE (we just exclude nullstations with no docking rights and all involved market shenenigans for now) - so this API can fetch prices, quantity and whatnot.
That's a good idea and very valuable but when it comes to DU (First person) with a fully editable world with NO NPC stations at all - I don't want such a general API because there will be plenty of black/hidden markets.
I could see that API happening for certain big markets though.
IF implemented, do it like EVE (for obvious reasons): public information that's available anyway should require no consent, but more personal (in character ofc) information should require the player involved to compile that API so he knows what kind of information he gives away.

Asia-Pacific Unity is recruiting.
Link: https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/asia-pacific-unity
Discord: https://discord.gg/eqPF9u4
 
Discription:
 
For a prosperous, democratic, civilized and harmonious universe.
Asia-Pacific Unity is a loose league of Asia-Pacific players. Provides a platform for Asians and Oceanians in advantage of time zone sharing and cultural common.
We will never assign any unnecessary tasks to members of APU, which means you do not have to bear any burdens over the bottom line for joining APU.
What we want is to provide a free space for players from the same region to play and have fun together. No worry about the time zone, culture difference and language barrier. That's all.
We will not competing with other organizations, or have a fight with them. We will never prohibit our member from joining other organizations or working for them.
We know everyone in Dual Universe is equal. So we will try not to stop them from having fun in their own way.
We promise, the Asia-Pacific Unity:
 
NO ATTACHED STRINGS AND DUTIES. FOREVER NEUTRAL.
 
Here you can:
1. Find partners in the same time zone
2. Use your mother tongue instead of English to communicate with your friends
3. Bargain & trade based on domestic intelligence.
4. Looking for like-minded partners to build a universe with the characteristics of your culture together.
 
Possible "necessary tasks" includes:
1. Do not argue with others unreasonable.
2. Be kind and friendly to each other.
3. Do not personal attacks.
4. Discrimination and racism are strictly prohibited.
5. Provide assistance when organizational functioning is impeded based on a voluntary basis.
 
We always look forward to your participation. Also welcome non-Asians & non-Oceanians.
 
Link: https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/asia-pacific-unity
Discord: https://discord.gg/eqPF9u4
 

Asia-Pacific Unity is recruiting.
Link: https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/asia-pacific-unity
Discord: https://discord.gg/eqPF9u4
 
Discription:
 
For a prosperous, democratic, civilized and harmonious universe.
Asia-Pacific Unity is a loose league of Asia-Pacific players. Provides a platform for Asians and Oceanians in advantage of time zone sharing and cultural common.
We will never assign any unnecessary tasks to members of APU, which means you do not have to bear any burdens over the bottom line for joining APU.
What we want is to provide a free space for players from the same region to play and have fun together. No worry about the time zone, culture difference and language barrier. That's all.
We will not competing with other organizations, or have a fight with them. We will never prohibit our member from joining other organizations or working for them.
We know everyone in Dual Universe is equal. So we will try not to stop them from having fun in their own way.
We promise, the Asia-Pacific Unity:
 
NO ATTACHED STRINGS AND DUTIES. FOREVER NEUTRAL.
 
Here you can:
1. Find partners in the same time zone
2. Use your mother tongue instead of English to communicate with your friends
3. Bargain & trade based on domestic intelligence.
4. Looking for like-minded partners to build a universe with the characteristics of your culture together.
 
Possible "necessary tasks" includes:
1. Do not argue with others unreasonable.
2. Be kind and friendly to each other.
3. Do not personal attacks.
4. Discrimination and racism are strictly prohibited.
5. Provide assistance when organizational functioning is impeded based on a voluntary basis.
 
We always look forward to your participation. Also welcome non-Asians & non-Oceanians.
 
Link: https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/asia-pacific-unity
Discord: https://discord.gg/eqPF9u4