Vasten
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Posts posted by Vasten
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59 minutes ago, TheMasterArchitect said:
haha. Trust me they killed the mega factory already. I don't know anyone who actually makes 100% of everything.
Yes T1-2 items are fairly easy to make and sure you can get a mega factory out of those items if you mine up and sell a few mega nodes but T3 and up starts getting expensive for players.
if that were true there would be a market for components, parts, alloys etc
And there isnt
High level items are made by factories that take ore input and produce finished products, otherwise we would see the intermediary parts being bought and sold.. which they are not
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1 minute ago, blazemonger said:
This is true yes. The worst part here though is that NQ actually put direct blame on solo and small group players for the fact markets did not function and sold the 0.23 changes as a "fix" for this.
NQ _wants_ big orgs to control and dictate the game parameters and expects solo and small group players to just follow that meta or become a big org if they want to create meta themselves. They pretty much killed their initial claims that the game will offer every opportunity for solo players to be successful. Clearly that success would not equal what a large org could do but NQ has changes the game to the point where small group and solo players are directly dependent on what large groups do or don't do.
Results are seen in for instance AGG being not available on markets at all or at ridiculous prices which directly follows from large orgs being able to cook their own and control the availability of these items for the rest.
It's not even just orgs
A single player with a mega factory is too much. A single player with a mega factory doesnt need an org.. they can grow to be org sized without an org because of scalability and automation
I actually dont mind big orgs.. it's the scalability of a single human player that is riddiculous..
"Work together and specialize.. unless your are in the top wealthiest players.. then just make everything yourself, make passive income, and grow exponentially... the rest of you.. no scalability at all.. scaling is only for the top 1%"
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The mega factory meta is what prevents the dream of a specialized economy and cooperative civilization building
To break it the scalability of factory industry needs to be nerfed.. scripting is fun but it just further amplifies industry scalability to riddiculous meta levels
Limit based on char (like max active units per char) would be circumvented by alts.
Human time is the only thing that will work
Make industry units break down and require repair, maintenance and care.. require human grinding play time to keep the factory units operating
Mining,logistics and trade are all grindy and hard to scale
Why is industry allowed to scale to such riddiculous levels that it create tychoons and monopolies that have largely passive income.. it actually kills the cooperative specialization that is supposedly the goal of this game.
As long as the single human mega factory meta exists it is the only thing worth doing.. it needs to not just be nerfed.. but killed.. otherwise there will never civ building and specialization
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1 hour ago, XKentX said:
Not everything is on NQ but stuff like "3" obviously is. Players did their part too, thank you for selling me ore and buying my containers at the start of the beta.
Actually it is pretty much all on them
Every mmo has this problem
A large base of casual players for fun
And small base a Meta optimization focused players
If they didnt plan for this it is on them.
They cant create a game with a meta strategy that creates this and say "oh my, I didnt realize there would be gamers to take to the meta strategy to such extreme lengths"
I now understand why 0.23 killed the player base
Because schemas made everyone dependent on the tychoons.. it's either buy from tychoons or spend all your time and money buying schemas.
Yes.. they created a good replica of modern day capitalism.. schemas are akin to patents and copyrights...
But this is not what they say they are trying to create.. they say they want civs composed of specialized players...
All they need to do is remove the passive play element.. make industry machines break down and require maintenance and care so that there is a reasonable limit on how much a single person can handle. (No char limit on max units.. make the input actually active play.. human time maintaining the factory machines)
Problem solved so easily...
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13 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:
* sigh *
You must be relativly new, if not given up yet on "disign suggestions to NQ". Let me tell you secret: its useless.
Still. Problem here is much deeper then just industry, because, realisticly, other activities are quite "passive" too, just a bit different way. Most things are slow, predictable, mostly without any risk (beyond boredom), even if they need human participation -- quite automatic by their nature, not adding anything of value too loops and dynamics.
So this stale enviroment indeed produced situation, where 7/24 playing people (also boosted by NQ stupid mistakes and all sorts of exploits) are sitting now on billions and mega-factories (producing everything with bands of 5/5 alts, pissing fountains on JC ideas of specialization). This was even more futhered to mockery levels with 0.23 and famous schemgate.
Economy of DU lagerly at this point, pardon my french, FUBAR.
I am relatively new yeah
But this stuff is simple game theory
It's like they have no idea what game theory is or understand gamer behaviour at all
These players are just behaving as gamers always have and following simple game theory decision making matrices
And I can be repaired easily...
Server wipe
Make everything active instead of passive
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Imho
The solution is to make industry less passiveMining is so active play, shipping as well
Why is industry just turn on, log off, login done.
Machines should break down and need repair.. your talent bluffs should have to be applied to each machine and wear off after a time so you have to apply them regularly
Make the industry guys work too
Otherwise industry is a priviledge that will be controlled by an elite few who get passive income while the rest of us are laboring
The tychoons will market manipulate and price to make sure they stay on top.. so there wont even be a chance for small guys to compete
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So we have factories with magic equiment that never breaks down, never needs repair, zero maintenance.. programmable production so we can create "magic black box factories" where you just say "computer make 5 of this and 20 of that" and it does it...
Ok that's cool
But we have stone age trade.. mo way to offer up goods across the world. You have to haul goods to market and hope someone buys like a peasant farmer in medieval times.
I cant chat with potential buyers.. cant inquire about bulk discount... I cant contact sellers and buyers at all
What the hell?
Of course the economy is completely screwed up.. supply chains are going to be pushed to zero.. or course
Of course you end up with a few tychoons who make everything
And everyone else is a peasant farmer feeding them ore
Either buff trade with ibsta system wide teleport shipping
Or nerf manufacturing
Machine needing maintenance and care would do the trick
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6 hours ago, Treelover69 said:
Yea, this is pretty much it.
They needed to actually hard limit individual's ability to diversify industry to force players into specialized industry make trade happen. Only think I can think to do would be to make it so you can only talent into X number of industry chains, and can only make things you're talented into. If it's restrictive enough, goods will flow more readily, but I doubt people want another talent/industry rework anytime soon...
I know that wont work
Because I already have 3 alts.. a main miner, a refiner, a smelter, and a metalwork
No matter what you do.. if alts are a thing then people just create a bunch of alts
They allow alts, of course because sub money, but that only means any attempt to curb a players ability to diversify just means whales will control the market
So my 4 chars isnt enough, I need a few more before I can participate in the market.. but I'm already at the point where i have given up on that..
But I'm sure there are lots of guys with a dozen alts
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9 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:
Why are we necroposting?
Also keep it on topic. Constructive criticism is welcome, trolling it not.The opportunity cost for using the market is way too high
The time required to go to market due to lag means the markets have a massive economic opportunity cost
Selling at markets requires hauling good directly to location of intended offer without knowing if/when it will sell
This is already on top of the fact that We already have to travel long distances to get to market buying fuel and time, risking a crash due to lag
There is only one problem that needs to be dealt with.... loading lag
Until then the "use the market" mantra is meaningless when you factor in the time opportunity cost, fuel cost, and risk factor
The markets are useless in their current state
Cant you just put market terminal outside](loading the elevator can take a long time])
And force market terminals to load first priority before all other contructs?
Please start Factoring in time opportunity cost.. we as always do.. you cant ignore it, it's the most important factor
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4 minutes ago, Treelover69 said:
Yea, this is pretty much it.
They needed to actually hard limit individual's ability to diversify industry to force players into specialized industry make trade happen. Only think I can think to do would be to make it so you can only talent into X number of industry chains, and can only make things you're talented into. If it's restrictive enough, goods will flow more readily, but I doubt people want another talent/industry rework anytime soon...
Even that wouldn't be enough
If the talent bonuses arent big enough for that
Cost benefit would not justify.
If you cut a production line across 2 players you add the cost of transport, market fees, plus all the opportunity cost of not knowing if/when it will sell
Having a full production line from ore to finished product will be soooooo much better than selling intermediary parts.
So only finished products will be feasible industry strategies.. building automated factories that can produce multiple products on demand makes it worse.
It's like this game gives you the high tech age of fully automated factories, so it kill small producers
But a primitive stone age quality market system where you literally have to haul the product to market just indicate intent to sell in that specific location
Topped off by a schematics meant to curb stomp you ability to build up industry production and force you to buy instead of make
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Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..
"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*
I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.
Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market
What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale
What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?
So I'm left thinking..
I FINALLY GET IT!!I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents
At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun
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From the talents and crafting trees it seems pretty obvious there will be xl cores
Any Idea when we will get access to them
Ot seems a waste to design stuff using l cores if i have to rip it all up and redo it all we'd hen xl comes out
I finally get it!
in General Discussions
Posted
Like you say.. items
There is only market for finished products and those need multiple industry's to make..
There is no market for intermediary part, alloys, etc
Everyone has mega factories the take in ore and output final product
There is no room for a screw producer.. or a pipe, or frame makers.. no one can be an alloy maker