Cybrex
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Posts posted by Cybrex
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In a previous topic, there was a brief moment where some of us discussed how the economy in Dual Universe will operate. I feel like this is a good topic to continue discussing, even now despite what little information we have. However, I hope that Nyz can shed some light on this.
Before we begin, if you see anything missing from this topic, please let me know. I plan to update this thread with current economic facts, as well as discussion points. Thanks!
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Topics of interest! If you have something you want to be discussed, let me know and I can update it here.
Business Ventures - With a game like DU, whose scope is truly massive in its goal to create a living, breathing sandbox universe, the possibilities for all sorts of professions are near endless. What sort of ideas do you have?
Central Trade Hub - While this topic may be a little pre-mature, I am hoping as we get more information in the future anything we discuss on this can begin to be fleshed out. Eve Online has a many trade hubs, but THE trade hub is known as Jita. Anything and everything can be found there. While DU will be a different game in its own right, should we as the first players look in to trying to create a centralized trade hub int he early stages of the game? By a collective effort from the community, we could easily create said market. Or, we could let things happen naturally. The latter will happen either way, and throughout different regions. What are your thoughts?
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I am no economic nut, but it does excite me for whatever reason. The economy will be a huge part of this game, and I'd really like to get everyone's input on it, and start putting some ideas together so that come game day, we've got a plan and vision of what to expect.
Right now that's all I have on my mind. I plan to keep this topic going, and I will update the thread as needed.
Also, another jab at Nyz! Any insight you have on this topic would be appreciated. It will help guide the discussions somewhere relevant to what we can expect to see.
DU ECONOMY FAQ:
? Auctions - Can be visibly seen locally (in whatever region the Market Unit is established.)
? Standard Currency - There will be a standard currency established for the economy. (Players will not be able to create their own currencies.)
Currently, there is no plan to enable players to create their own currency, for several reasons:
- Risk of imbalance: If there is something that needs to be stable for a sandbox game, this is the in-game economy.
- Development priority: Many features are quite long to develop (even the basic ones). And as this type of game mechanics implies a complex game design behind it in order to work well, it would cost a lot of development time. And for now, it's far from being in priorities
- Fun to play: We are not entirely convinced that enabling players to create their own money would be fun on the long run, nor really very easy to understand and master for most of the players (look how the economy in real life is complexified just by that). While we don't want to go "mainstream" in the game design of Dual Universe, we don't want either to go for a game that will only appeal to a very small population of players. We also need numbers to create a MMORPG full of player-driven stories!
? Newbie Zone Market - The starting zone will have an initial market hub established to "jump start" the economy, and provide some basic means for the players via NPC vendors.
The starting zone (the secure area around the Arkship) should have this role (as well as being a “Newbie Zone?? to learn the game mechanics):
To bootstrap the economy at the beginning, it will be necessary to have at least a few NPC vendors selling basic equipment.And from this, the players should have all they need to develop the in-game economy? Market Units - A buildable structure to establish a trading post.
"In Dual Universe, creating a market will require nothing more than setting up a Market Unit, a particular Element that you can craft and install in any construct of yours. The Market Unit requires an energy supply and a container to store the traded goods. It can be as small as a front door market in your little farm, where travelers can buy your local production, to an orbital station sized market where interstellar megaships are traded."? Information Units - A build-able structure to view local buy/sell orders on the market.
"Importantly, you will access market information (the current list of buy/sell orders for any given good) from a distance, using Information Units to analyze prices on different markets, and compare. This mechanism will naturally establish competition between markets and tend to aggregate them based on geographical or specialization efficiency criteria. When you’ll buy a good on a market 1.000km away from where you stand, it will show up in a local inventory physically attached to that particular market container."DU ECONOMY REFERENCE LINKS:
? DEVBLOG - From Barter To Market Economy
- Lego
- Dreamstar, Atmosph3rik and KlatuSatori
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Well, remember that there will be countless worlds for players to colonize. Could simply have one elected representative from each world be on a council, and from there said representatives would elect their own Speaker (IE: Emperor, President whatever floats your boat). Keeps in line with having a figure head, but still limits power to the representatives from each world.
Said "Speaker" would do nothing more than be a voice of wisdom, whose word could potentially carry more weight than the rest. Keep the elections rotated every 3 - 6 months to keep things fresh, and you have a functioning democratic space civilization. For the most part, each representative would control and maintain their own worlds (IE: Governors). If a planet would want to opt in to support an Imperial fleet, that is their decision.
Keeps each world autonomous, with a council of individuals elected by their own groups to represent them.
Personally, it isn't the life for me. I made it quite abundantly clear on my stance of democracies within games, but this system utilizes both democratic authority as well as leaving the planets to govern themselves how they like. I suppose in an effort to keep everyone somewhat on the same page, that for a planet to have a seat on said Imperial Council, they must follow certain guidelines.
Just my 2 cents, and could be expanded on more but I'll leave it like this.
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I'm interpreting that as just a general script, whether player-made or predefined. When Nyz mentioned "customized AI scripts" I believe he just means pets can't have AIs, since they're not artificial. So pets, as lifeforms, will have pre-scripted actions, while mechanized machines can have player-scripted AIs.
Just my two-cents. And by the way, 999th post right here.
You make a valid point, guess I skimmed over that statement.
Oh, and happy 1000th post?
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How will your playable areas be handled? One huge universe? Shared Shards? Multiple Instances of the same areas? Shared phases or sectors?
Dual will operate on a single shard. Think of Eve Online.
One big universe.
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Never know what kind of possibilities might open up, government sponsored piracy on the empires enemies... I mean that will never happen, the Empire is a place of Laws and Justice, Nobles and Knights and a gleaming beacon of hope and light in the universe!
Your words! They burn!
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Hi Nyzaltar,
That sounds good to me too.
One question though: are mechanical workers a static craft with predefined AI, or will player be able to build their own worker (using standard ship construction mechanisms) with their own scripts ?
Regards,
Shadow
Good question.
I would imagine it would be the case, considering we will be able to make our own scripts to execute functions. Though, from Nyz's post it seems like AI scripts will be available via pre-made templates? I could be just reading that wrong however.
@Nyz - would like to get an answer on this!
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Also, good thread. Like the thought you've put in to it already, but alas, it isn't for me.
- Bella_Astrum, Dreamstar, Kiklix and 1 other
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Welcome Daddio! It seems we finally have an Elite player here!
I played some Elite on the side.
Haven't touched the more recent one though in a while.
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I've read all of your post Nyzaltar, as always interesting and promising stuff....this however made me especially curious
looking forward to that DevBlog post too!Like wise.
It has been a little bit since we've had a devblog posted.
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Glad to have you here with us Daddio.
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there was a similar topic where Nyzaltar gave a response, although quite some time has passed, and maybe the team has more to say now.
here- https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/49-what-if-we-had-pets/
For me though I do not understand having 'pets' in games. You can't really cuddle or enjoy the company of your pet in any significant way, and if the team goes out of their way to create overly elaborate and flashy visual pets to try and be eye candy, it usually just upsets me and decreases my enjoyment levels.
I also think its funny to see an army of warriors with tiny tabby cats, puppy's and ponies charging onto the battlefield. or worse floating alien strobe light pets.
I would not be against either having pet areas or a module or something you can put inside your ship that lets your pet roam around the area.
Things about pets that really upset me at times
- companies trying to make pets relevant, by making them involved with loot, salvage, selling items, ect
- pet pet battles
- pets giving stats or advantages
- overly extravagant pets, with lights or eye clutter in pvp
being able to tame wildlife and keep them in a zoo like setting could be really cool.
If they were to implement battle fatigue or 'mind wounds' similar to what was in SWG, maybe playing or watching pets could be a relaxing thing that cures the fatigue / wounds. Kind of like recovering from post. traumatic. stress. disorder.
lastly, for me Id like to say that if its done in a good way I have no problem with pets if they dont conflict with any of the following.
Will adding pets detract or distract the team from making other content. Like more weapon, armor, clothing models.
Will pets significantly increase the size of the game?
Do they have any chance of causing stability issues, or overwhelming players personal computers cpu / gpu ...
- would it mean decreasing the player model quality, or terrain / fauna quality.
No looting, extra inventory, stats bonus, no pet pvp against players or other pets.
I can respect that opinion, and from an immersion perspective, I agree on some of your points.
I'd like to see "pets" be capable of being created (IE: Robots etc.) or finding various wild life on the planets we travel that you can tame. I'd also love to see a degree of functionality besides being just vanity items to show off. They need to serve a purpose and provide some reason to exist. Compliment your character, but not be a detriment to the player if you don't have one either. Just a helpful companion if it can serve said purpose.
Judging on the scripting this game will have, I can expect to see us players creating interesting AI programs to task machines to do interesting things for us.
Wild life is a tough one for me to think about, mainly because I am pretty sleep deprived at the moment.
Though, Ark: Survival Evolved has a pretty cool system in regards to taming wild life and what not, and that also runs off the Unreal Engine. So it is possible, but the trick would be to procedurally generate the wild life. I suppose NQ could create multiple base templates for wild life, that the engine could then work within the perimeters of, and then create the creature itself out of random, but retaining the functionality that the template it was created off of. I don't know if any of that made sense. Maybe when I get some sleep I can explain better, hah!
As far as hindering game play, I can't bring up a counter argument right now. Unreal Engine is a very capable engine, and can be manipulated to do many things. I wouldn't worry about that stuff until we further know what NQ are doing with UE.
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One such game would be Elite of course. But one point, I think, is that a criminal system shouldn't be universal and be an automatic implementation as in Elite Dangerous. Like in real life, justice systems would have to be established by players themselves to determine what is bad or good or wrong or right. Also adds more roles for players ex. judges and lawyers.
But yeah, bounty hunters sound cool.
Bounty hunters will certainly make my life in space that much more interesting!
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I'd like to have my own R2-D2.
Nuff said.
- Kiklix and Bella_Astrum
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I don't see why this wouldn't be included in-game. DU seems to take an approach to survival on top of everything else, so to not see that element extended to space travel would surprise me.
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Hmm that's very true, what Kiklix said. Encouraging social interaction through ship crews would likely be very effective. As for ship sizes, well, hello Star Destroyer.
Encourage interactions, but not cripple those who do not want to take part.
Balancing solo/group play styles is always a tough subject to tackle for any developer. I take part in both, more so the solo portion.
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No problem. Some things could be built while instanced which should not be a problem with a large community with various game play elements to have fun with. Building inside an instance is only detrimental when the only thing going on in the game is building. I think it would be hard to craft a large building into the terrain if building took place in instancing...so ya, tough call. One option would be to have build templates be invisible to anyone except the builder and when those copied voxels are placed outside of the "template zone" then they would be visible. This would not eliminate the workspace but it would reduce the amount of stuff seen in the world.
A game I used to play actively called Shores of Hazeron had a separate client that would let you build spaceships and buildings in. You would save the template, and then just import it to a character at a crafting area and then just drop it if you had the appropriate amount of resources.
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Welcome aboard!
Also, that's a lot of sudden landmark peeps coming on over here.
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Welcome aboard!
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Welcome aboard!
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Welcome aboard!
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I dont think its a derail really, if the economy is what hypes you up.
I'm hoping for a regular subscription personally
A player operated exchange is a slippery and uncontrollable thing, it also brings real world factors into the game, potentially, class / wealth and so forth. I understand that subscriptions favor people with less money and more time to play, but opening the possibility to favor people with money over people with time and commitment to the game is more dangerous to me.
Im hoping that the development of in game intellectual property is just that, in game, possibly sold on an internal player exchange for in game currency. That is if the empire that has ownership over the works is willing to sell it.
There may be genius individuals that make good ships, but I believe that with the way the sculpting, applying some lua code, figuring out which modules to slap onto/into ships, testing ships rewriting code - it will probably be the work of groups.
I have a feeling we will probably see subscription, with a Time Code for currency exchange. It might be cool also if they have a direct money to currency exchange. If they did that, technically it would allow for people to pay euro's / dollars ect for items in game, without a complicated exchange for certain items for bid or dollars and no favoritism can leak in.
If they want to put up a creation spotlight kind of thing, I think they let community upvote submitted creations, so the team isnt liable for favoring people - and the community can say what they think is cool
Pretty spot on to what I was thinking.
The next question, and we all kind of skim here and there, but what will be the currency in-game? Seeing as how NQ has a vision for everything to be player operated, it gave me the assumption that even a basic economy will be on our shoulders to build. To include finding/making a currency standard.
I'm not an economic nut, but this is a pretty intriguing topic.
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I had a friend in another voxel building game tell me about Dual Universe around July 2014. He quit the game we played a couple weeks later. He only mentioned that DU was a voxel building game with the ability to make vehicles roll, fly etc. That itself was enough to get me excited, but as time went on and I read/reread the Dev Blogs I got and get more and more excited.
The ability to make our own world, structures, governments, spaceships itself seems very appealing although for myself I would be happy enough designing spaceships that not only look good, but function well. I dont just want a pretty ship, I want to design ships with purpose, utility...ships to be admired. I do not subscribe to the idea that a "good design" just means pretty...that is all to common with people. A good design is one where form follows function, but the form is aesthetically pleasing. I want to see if this is something I can accomplish.
The game seems vast, deep, serious (this is something I really admire...a serious game, not goofy stuff). I know it will take time to get it all there and that the DU project will probably never be 'complete' but just being able to craft good looking ships that function well....man for me, that is what dreams are made of.
I would like to see a player 'store' where we can make construct blueprints that can be sold for real money. It would help push people to make cool, functional stuff and it would help create some revenue for NovaQuark.
About your point on the "player store". If I'm correct in assuming you mean players creating in-game designs/blueprints and then NQ selling them for a real world currency profit for other players to buy, would the player who also created said design/blueprint receive any income?
It sounds like a system implemented by a game like Second Life, and one other Sci Fi game I can't recall right now. So the system obviously works, but personally I'm not too big a fan of it.
I'm all for an in-game market, but the currency in which to buy them with should stay strictly in-game.
Hate to derail the topic, but I just had to comment on Kiklix's thing.
- The Scruffy Pirate
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I have no doubt you want to!
Especially as I am the kind of people very interesting to hunt (but not easy to catch though), transporting quite valuable stuff for my industrial role.
It wouldn't be wise to give my visit card to a space pirate, especially when I roam in low sec and null sec, would it?
Best Regards,
Nyzaltar.
At least I'm a classy space pirate. I wouldn't hurt you. Much.
I actually just moved back to Lowsec space after being in Null for a while. Fountain grew pretty dull after awhile, so my corp left our previous alliance to go pirate around in Lowsec for a bit, and do a little faction warfare on the side.
In any case, maybe one day we'll cross paths Nyz.
- The Scruffy Pirate
The Economy
in Idea Box
Posted
Ah thanks for the link. I had thought I'd read over every devblog, but I guess I missed this one. Whoops!
The blog hypothetically mentions a standard currency, though I am unsure if it will apply to what we will actually have. The more and more I think about the start of this game, the more and more I see a lot of work ahead for the first players. We certainly have a lot of foundation to build, and the economy will be one hell of a beast to tackle. Though, naturally much of it will come to be just by influence from every other action.
While the devblog did answer a few questions, it more or less covered the basics of any economy which anyone should grasp with a little common sense. The information on the market/information units and what not was a good bit of insight, but I need more before I or anyone else can really get some core concepts understood for this game.