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Scale of the Universe


Obikawa

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Here on Earth we have more than 6'000'000'000 people. This game wants to populate a galaxy. There is a problem here. With a 1:1 scale it would be impossible to "populate a galaxy" densely enough with a small fraction of the Earth's residents. It would also take an impossible amount of time.

There are two different adjustments needed to solve the problem:

  1. Compress the spatial dimensions.
  2. Compress the time line.

For the following calculations I make a simplification of assuming 6'000'000'000 people on spherical Earth, and radius of  6'000 km. Those numbers give an image of a planet slightly smaller and less populated than in reality.

After thinking for a while I decided to go with a simple division of distances by 1'000. So one kilometer becomes one meter. This goes nicely with 6 million players (World of Warcraft topped at 11 million) being one thousandth of earthlings.

After compression, the above, assumed planet becomes one with just 6 km radius. From 453'600'000 square km of surface down to just 453.6 square km. The surface actually decreased million-fold - that means the six million players would need to be scattered to a thousand planets to stay at the same density level! How does that sound as "populating a galaxy"? Realistically,  six million players is a high target to clear and a thousand planets all packed with players is something mind blowing as well. When we consider a start with just one planet, six thousand new players sounds like a good success story for a well hyped game. Even if we start with less, that just means more free space. One thousand per arkship? Sounds like sensible, story compliant number. It also gives sense for existence of six times more planets. I may have pulled the ratio out of my ass as the saying goes, but it fits surprisingly well.

However, even that shrunken universe would take a lot of time to traverse. The closest star to Sun in reality is 4.4 light years away from here. When divided by thousand, this distance shrinks to 38.5 light hours. That is still way too long for a short distance trip in a game. This is where the time compression comes in action. From the same place as before I hereby pull out another ratio - 1:60. Imagine the minute hand of a clock moving ahead every second. With just that a travel at "speed of light" to the Sun's Nearest Star would take 38  minutes 30 seconds. A jump from Sun to the end of the Solar System would take only 15 seconds. And that is not considering the Faster Than Light engines!

What do you think of that?

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I'm going to be honest, I read all of that and got lost during it twice.

 

I'm not sure what your point was 100%... Was it that DU should be 1000th the scale of real life ? reducing all the distances and radius by a factor of a thousand or that we should split the initial player base into 1000 groups and deploy them to different planets?

 

I'm not sure what they are doing but one of the questions I've been planning to ask myself is what the shape of the universe will be and the distances they are going to spread everything out by. Because to be honest, i've not read anything yet (or took it in) that states the game will follow realistic solar systems and galaxy layouts, they could have some 'new' shape for their systems. We don't even know if planets will orbit or be stationary (I think, haven't seen it)... 

 

If you could maybe give a more direct question I could offer some more constructive feedback... other may not need this, but I'm lost as to what you're asking.

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It is not really about a shape. I am just trying to give some theoretical frame to how vast the Dual Universe feels. And because the story presents our universe it cannot be something very different from what we know. This whole idea of compression is my solution to the problem of populating a galaxy with a small number of players while preserving the feel of vastness of space. I also factored in the fact that to build a stargate in a new distant system that system needs to be reached in timely manner.

The excellency of those ratios lies in how you still need a lot of time to travel far without a gate, while it is not too much time either. A hitchhike through a galaxy would still be an epic adventure, while people jumping to neighboring stars would need just a few minutes with a good(?) FTL engine.

I used our Solar System as a reference because this the only system we have a real comprehension of.

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Well a typical planet radius will be about 30km which corresponds to a surface area ~10,000 times less than the surface area of the Earth.  So to have a comparable population density to that of the earth on such a planet would require ~100,000 people.  If DU becomes highly successful and has 1 million active players, 100,000 on the starting planet doesn't sound out of the bounds of reason.  

 

However, a planet does not need to have a population density similar to Earth to feel fully inhabited.  

 

Also, the aim is not to have a fully populated universe throughout.  There will and should always be unexplored regions of planets and space.

 

Here are a couple of threads worth checking out.

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/296-devblog-territory-control/

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/327-theres-gold-in-them-there-hills/?hl=gold

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/431-thoughts-on-stargates-and-ftl/

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Well a typical planet radius will be about 30km which corresponds to a surface area ~10,000 times less than the surface area of the Earth.  So to have a comparable population density to that of the earth on such a planet would require ~100,000 people.  If DU becomes highly successful and has 1 million active players, 100,000 on the starting planet doesn't sound out of the bounds of reason.  

 

However, a planet does not need to have a population density similar to Earth to feel fully inhabited.  

 

Also, the aim is not to have a fully populated universe.  There will and should always be unexplored regions of planets and space.

 

Here are a couple of threads worth checking out.

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/296-devblog-territory-control/

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/327-theres-gold-in-them-there-hills/?hl=gold

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/431-thoughts-on-stargates-and-ftl/

The 30 km radius was just an example in the Blog. Nowhere have I seen it described as "typical", though I may have missed it. The surface of such planet could house 180'000 people Earth-wise. I agree with you on both points about the feel of being inhabited and universe not being fully populated.

The planets can surely have different radii and one such as in the Blog could be considered one of the big ones. What I am worried about is how a small planet (such as one with 5-6 km radius) would look like in space and on surface.

Anyway, what do you think about the concept of compression on a macroscopic scale?

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Yeah I extrapolated when I said 30km was a typical planet radius.  I'm guessing that the smallest might be around 5km radius and the largest around 50km and 20-30 is typical, but obviously I don't know this for sure.  I would also be interested to see a 5km planet split up into hexes like the one in the devblog.

 

I agree that distances between planets and stars needs to be very carefully considered but it is not the whole story on its own, because it also depends greatly on how fast ships can traverse space.  Your numbers which allow getting from one system to another in ~40minutes without even firing up the FTL drive sounds much too quick to me, but it depends on how many systems there will be in the game.  ~40 minutes at max FTL in a small ship might be okay but still has problems.

 

My hope is that interstellar space will be populated by rogue planets and anomalies so that there is a reason to be out there.  Then the time it takes to get to the next solar system without stargates is less of a factor.  It can be 10 hours at top speed if you like, and if someone wants to beeline for it that's fine, but most will build outposts in interstellar space at locations of interest and value.

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Yeah I extrapolated when I said 30km was a typical planet radius.  I'm guessing that the smallest might be around 5km radius and the largest around 50km and 20-30 is typical, but obviously I don't know this for sure.  I would also be interested to see a 5km planet split up into hexes like the one in the devblog.

 

I agree that distances between planets and stars needs to be very carefully considered but it is not the whole story on its own, because it also depends greatly on how fast ships can traverse space.  Your numbers which allow getting from one system to another in ~40minutes without even firing up the FTL drive sounds much too quick to me, but it depends on how many systems there will be in the game.  ~40 minutes at max FTL in a small ship might be okay but still has problems.

 

My hope is that interstellar space will be populated by rogue planets and anomalies so that there is a reason to be out there.  Then the time it takes to get to the next solar system without stargates is less of a factor.  It can be 10 hours at top speed if you like, and if someone wants to beeline for it that's fine, but most will build outposts in interstellar space at locations of interest and value.

 

40 Minutes from system to system... I certainly hope not.. You are forgetting that the universe is supposedly going to be 'infinite'... I hope it takes 5-10mins at full FTL or less to get from system to system, having to much time required to get from place to place would kill alot of the enjoyment of the game for me. I want to be able to explore.. but i don't want to have to fly for 10hours just to get somewhere new.. 

 

Infinite universe and you can have 10 planets / systems all right on your door step... Think if this goes to something like NMS size (or very big)... you could spend weeks just getting a little bit across the universe and then if you need to get back too.. (as stargates are supposed to be expensive).. it would be double... 

 

I hope the systems are accessible and not require pointless flight time to get anywhere...

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40 Minutes from system to system... I certainly hope not.. You are forgetting that the universe is supposedly going to be 'infinite'... I hope it takes 5-10mins at full FTL or less to get from system to system, having to much time required to get from place to place would kill alot of the enjoyment of the game for me. I want to be able to explore.. but i don't want to have to fly for 10hours just to get somewhere new.. 

 

Infinite universe and you can have 10 planets / systems all right on your door step... Think if this goes to something like NMS size (or very big)... you could spend weeks just getting a little bit across the universe and then if you need to get back too.. (as stargates are supposed to be expensive).. it would be double... 

 

I hope the systems are accessible and not require pointless flight time to get anywhere...

This is exactly why I introduced the time compression. If the shorter time travel were to be achievied through smaller distances only, the planets and systems would get too close to each other. And please don't forget my last paragraph of the first post. A closest system in 40 minutes at exactly the "speed of light". If you had engine giving ten times "speed of light" you would reach the same system in 4 minutes. Nobody established what the speed limits on those engines are. Right now I am in a middle of thinking about possible theories how to build an FTL engine.

Also keep in mind that star systems tend to have a spherical cloud of space matter where the gravity stops being strong enough to create protoplanets. These would be the perfect place for the "extra content" not related to established planetary organizations. ;)

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40 Minutes from system to system... I certainly hope not.. You are forgetting that the universe is supposedly going to be 'infinite'... I hope it takes 5-10mins at full FTL or less to get from system to system, having to much time required to get from place to place would kill alot of the enjoyment of the game for me. I want to be able to explore.. but i don't want to have to fly for 10hours just to get somewhere new.. 

 

Infinite universe and you can have 10 planets / systems all right on your door step... Think if this goes to something like NMS size (or very big)... you could spend weeks just getting a little bit across the universe and then if you need to get back too.. (as stargates are supposed to be expensive).. it would be double... 

 

I hope the systems are accessible and not require pointless flight time to get anywhere...

 

The problem with these discussions is that we are missing certain vital pieces of information, namely how fast you can travel, and perhaps more importantly, how dense the universe will be in terms of useful content - i.e. locations where players can regularly and purposefully extract gameplay.  

 

We only have a couple of pieces of information here.  One is that the game universe will be"virtually unlimited".  Another is the planets will be huge.  The example planet in the territories devblog has a surface area of over 11,000km2 which corresponds to over 5,000 1km/side hexes.  Pretty big.  Another is that the devs expect it will be quite some time, perhaps several months, before players manage to make it into space.

 

To me this suggests that it will be a very dense game universe.  If that is the case, then "virtually unlimited" does not have to mean millions of stars, billions of planets, like in Elite Dangerous.  A few thousand stars can be a virtually unlimited game universe if that universe is densely packed with deeply exploitable content combined with a relatively slow top speed.

 

40 minutes to get from one solar system to a neighbouring one is a long time if there is nothing in between the systems.  Regularly travelling for 40 minutes through nothingness would get old if you had to do it all the time (hence build a stargate).  However, if the space between those systems is packed with content, then 40 minutes is nothing at all.

 

So really we need more information.  The game I imagine is a rich and content dense one, where travel to distant locales (i.e. solar systems at or beyond the frontier of claimed territory) is something left to players who dedicate their game play to that style.

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Here on Earth we have more than 6'000'000'000 people. This game wants to populate a galaxy. There is a problem here. With a 1:1 scale it would be impossible to "populate a galaxy" densely enough with a small fraction of the Earth's residents. It would also take an impossible amount of time.

There are two different adjustments needed to solve the problem:

  1. Compress the spatial dimensions.
  2. Compress the time line.

For the following calculations I make a simplification of assuming 6'000'000'000 people on spherical Earth, and radius of  6'000 km. Those numbers give an image of a planet slightly smaller and less populated than in reality.

After thinking for a while I decided to go with a simple division of distances by 1'000. So one kilometer becomes one meter. This goes nicely with 6 million players (World of Warcraft topped at 11 million) being one thousandth of earthlings.

After compression, the above, assumed planet becomes one with just 6 km radius. From 453'600'000 square km of surface down to just 453.6 square km. The surface actually decreased million-fold - that means the six million players would need to be scattered to a thousand planets to stay at the same density level! How does that sound as "populating a galaxy"? Realistically,  six million players is a high target to clear and a thousand planets all packed with players is something mind blowing as well. When we consider a start with just one planet, six thousand new players sounds like a good success story for a well hyped game. Even if we start with less, that just means more free space. One thousand per arkship? Sounds like sensible, story compliant number. It also gives sense for existence of six times more planets. I may have pulled the ratio out of my ass as the saying goes, but it fits surprisingly well.

However, even that shrunken universe would take a lot of time to traverse. The closest star to Sun in reality is 4.4 light years away from here. When divided by thousand, this distance shrinks to 38.5 light hours. That is still way too long for a short distance trip in a game. This is where the time compression comes in action. From the same place as before I hereby pull out another ratio - 1:60. Imagine the minute hand of a clock moving ahead every second. With just that a travel at "speed of light" to the Sun's Nearest Star would take 38  minutes 30 seconds. A jump from Sun to the end of the Solar System would take only 15 seconds. And that is not considering the Faster Than Light engines!

What do you think of that?

 

 

Why the concern with population density at all? Earth is only partially land, and some places are more populated than others. 

 

Frankly Earth is overcrowded when looking at a game like this. Do you really want to have to fight to find land and have to pay an enormous portion of what little you can own working in someone else''s company. It would just be another mortgage you would have to work and pay for. 

 

With high density there become more scarcities, some natural some artificial. Having a lower density lessens this burden and gives people the space required to do as they please.

 

And remember in the dev blogs they talk about tile sets for claiming land. I believe these were said to be ~1km each. So how would you manage land ownership for thousands of people inside there if they all require the same access tags.I think one person per tile on a planet if all occupied will be crowded. Now I dont ever see this happening. It is likely groups will claim a tile clustered around other groups leaving most of a planet unclaimed. 

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This is exactly why I introduced the time compression. If the shorter time travel were to be achievied through smaller distances only, the planets and systems would get too close to each other. And please don't forget my last paragraph of the first post. A closest system in 40 minutes at exactly the "speed of light". If you had engine giving ten times "speed of light" you would reach the same system in 4 minutes. Nobody established what the speed limits on those engines are. Right now I am in a middle of thinking about possible theories how to build an FTL engine.

Also keep in mind that star systems tend to have a spherical cloud of space matter where the gravity stops being strong enough to create protoplanets. These would be the perfect place for the "extra content" not related to established planetary organizations. ;)

 

When I say extra content between solar systems I mean loads of it.  Between two solar systems that are 10 hours travel time apart there'd be dozens or even hundreds of locales in the space between and around them - some ideas are rogues planets, rogue gas giants with moons, rogue asteroid belts, brown dwarf systems, abandoned/ruined space stations of alien civilisations, ruined space ships, sites of ancient battles with vast open space filled with salvageable wreckage, random natural anomalies, anything else you can think of.

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Why the concern with population density at all? Earth is only partially land, and some places are more populated than others. 

 

Frankly Earth is overcrowded when looking at a game like this. Do you really want to have to fight to find land and have to pay an enormous portion of what little you can own working in someone else''s company. It would just be another mortgage you would have to work and pay for. 

 

With high density there become more scarcities, some natural some artificial. Having a lower density lessens this burden and gives people the space required to do as they please.

 

And remember in the dev blogs they talk about tile sets for claiming land. I believe these were said to be ~1km each. So how would you manage land ownership for thousands of people inside there if they all require the same access tags.I think one person per tile on a planet if all occupied will be crowded. Now I dont ever see this happening. It is likely groups will claim a tile clustered around other groups leaving most of a planet unclaimed. 

 

Population density is an important factor for the devs to consider in a game that has territorial control and political/military conflict between player factions.  I completely agree that the population of Earth is not a useful metric though.  I also agree a 30km radius planet had 100,000 regular players playing on it it would be way over populated, but that is only one planet of many (hundreds? thousands?).

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I just want FTL and space travel to work in such a way that I am able to travel for a very long amount of time (in game) to reach far far away planets. For example. I would like to fly a ship for 3-5 hours real life time at top speed and find a planet in some far distant system to inhabit. I think its limited now, but I hope that is something we can do in the future.

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I just want FTL and space travel to work in such a way that I am able to travel for a very long amount of time (in game) to reach far far away planets. For example. I would like to fly a ship for 3-5 hours real life time at top speed and find a planet in some far distant system to inhabit. I think its limited now, but I hope that is something we can do in the future.

 

This.... All of this... I need add nothing to it, as it is exactly my thoughts as well..

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Now that I have started to write down my theory of the Quantum Engine I am no longer as keen to compress the space thousandfold. Hundredfold will make the Earth equivalent have radius of 60km which is twice as much as the example planet above. The difference would be alleviated by having the FTL engines be ten times as fast and that's it!

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