Human spaceflight endeavors

[aliensalmon]

How far do you think humans will travel from Earth to the universe?

I think humans may settle Mars within the next century or so. If the great distances between stars can be bypassed (i.e. a "warp drive" mechanism or something else) they will reach other star systems probably within a millennium or two.

[Lethys]

even when travelling with c, it's just too huge and still needs years to millenia (from earths perspective) to go anywhere

[Arctic_fox]

On 11/24/2020 at 8:22 AM, Lethys said:

even when travelling with c, it's just too huge and still needs years to millenia (from earths perspective) to go anywhere

Depends on how its done. Cryo/stasis would make a lot of interstellar travel very viable. FTL if it can be done would open it up. Generational ships are perfectly viable if we can overcome the needing gravity thing. If we find ways to digitize i.e ghost in the machine its viable. Human printing or frozen genetic material to be fed into artifical wombs is posible as well.

 

Its not as huge a feat as you seem to think. Granted some ways are harder then others for example if we can upload humans to computers we can send a small craft out easily with even modern tech and nasas budget. Meanwhile a generational colony ship would be far far harder but is also doable even with todays tech. its just so expensive and intensive it would take an extinction level event for it to happen.

[Lethys]

6 hours ago, Arctic_fox said:

Depends on how its done. Cryo/stasis would make a lot of interstellar travel very viable. FTL if it can be done would open it up. Generational ships are perfectly viable if we can overcome the needing gravity thing. If we find ways to digitize i.e ghost in the machine its viable. Human printing or frozen genetic material to be fed into artifical wombs is posible as well.

Cryo/Stasis/digital selfs/generation ships don't solve any velocity problems (and thus time requirement with all THOSE problems on top of that). There's some (only a few....) problems there with machines working for years, communication, interstellar radiation, cuiper belt (and other asteroid fields around the suns of other systems), high velocity particles and so on. LOTS of stuff can go wrong when you have to travel for dozens and hundreds of years

 

FTL (as shown by Alcubierre) is possible in theory as of now, but nothing more - still HUGE problems to solve there, if even possible.

6 hours ago, Arctic_fox said:

Its not as huge a feat as you seem to think. Granted some ways are harder then others for example if we can upload humans to computers we can send a small craft out easily with even modern tech and nasas budget. Meanwhile a generational colony ship would be far far harder but is also doable even with todays tech. its just so expensive and intensive it would take an extinction level event for it to happen.

Its not as easy as you seem to think lol xD

Again: uploading anything to a machine doesn't solve the time problem (which was my point and nothing more) nor does a generation ship.

 

And please don't go the route of von Neumann machines cause those should not be ever considered nor built in any way, shape or form. And on top of that, those wouldn't solve the time problem either xD

[Arctic_fox]

2 hours ago, Lethys said:

Cryo/Stasis/digital selfs/generation ships don't solve any velocity problems (and thus time requirement with all THOSE problems on top of that). There's some (only a few....) problems there with machines working for years, communication, interstellar radiation, cuiper belt (and other asteroid fields around the suns of other systems), high velocity particles and so on. LOTS of stuff can go wrong when you have to travel for dozens and hundreds of years

 

FTL (as shown by Alcubierre) is possible in theory as of now, but nothing more - still HUGE problems to solve there, if even possible.

Its not as easy as you seem to think lol xD

Again: uploading anything to a machine doesn't solve the time problem (which was my point and nothing more) nor does a generation ship.

 

And please don't go the route of von Neumann machines cause those should not be ever considered nor built in any way, shape or form. And on top of that, those wouldn't solve the time problem either xD

Actully they do. You said it takes too much time. Time for who exactly? a generational ship by its very nature acknowledges that the great great great whatever kids get there. cryo eleminates ageimg from the colonists. frozen embyros and artifical wombs build a civilization from scratch. digitization = immortal and thus do solve the problem insofar as who would do ot.

 

If the colonists get there ALIVE or at least are able to establish a colony then the time is not a problem. Hell even trade would be posible with cycler castles amd given enough advancment.

 

Velocity is actully quite cheap to gain if done FROM space i.e built and launched in space and over long distances. Something with nuke and/or fusion plants and a stockpile of materials could easily make the trip using vasimr engines for example.

 

Lastly on FTL and effort. i already added the qualifier "if it can be done" i.e its not something we can predict. For effort its not as hard as YOU seem to think. As i said with todays tech if we were backed to a wall we COULD build a generational ship that could make the trip. Or if we find any of the other aformentioned techs it becomes even easier. Moreso if we move out into space as our limiting factor for effort right now is cost to orbit. Remove that as a major factor beyond getting the first few thousand up to orbit and lots of doors open.

 

Afterall its far easier to STAY in space then to GET to space and established there. Once the first ore extraction, fuel refineing, materials and oxygen factorys open up staying in space long term becomes pretty easy provideimg we can overcome the gravity problem via say spin stations.

[Lethys]

44 minutes ago, Arctic_fox said:

Actully they do. You said it takes too much time. Time for who exactly? a generational ship by its very nature acknowledges that the great great great whatever kids get there. cryo eleminates ageimg from the colonists. frozen embyros and artifical wombs build a civilization from scratch. digitization = immortal and thus do solve the problem insofar as who would do ot.

 

If the colonists get there ALIVE or at least are able to establish a colony then the time is not a problem. Hell even trade would be posible with cycler castles amd given enough advancment.

Time for everyone on earth AND the passengers. It doesn't matter that you don't feel the time passing when in stasis or if you're "shut down" when you're digital. Time still passes on earth.

Once you arrive you're on your own and you can't even easily communicate with home and tell them you're there, cause hundreds of years have passed. Maybe noone even listens anymore. And even if they do: the signal needs hundreds of years to get to earth. Their response needs hundreds of years to get to you.

 

And even IF you consider that you may be able to travel at c, travel times are WAY longer for the nearest stars. Only because Alpha Centauri is 4 LJ away, doesn't mean you get there in 4 years. And it doesn't matter if you travel (from start to stop) with c either when shooting for Alpha Centauri, cause 4 years will have passed on earth regardless, even if it took you only a day. And that time difference gets WORSE the farther you travel - thousands of years may pass on earth while you travel and instantly arrive anywhere in our galaxy. Would be a very boring (and short) flight too
 cause nothing ever happens to you, nor will you see anything because all you see will be light.

55 minutes ago, Arctic_fox said:

Velocity is actully quite cheap to gain if done FROM space i.e built and launched in space and over long distances. Something with nuke and/or fusion plants and a stockpile of materials could easily make the trip using vasimr engines for example.

Not really actually. Vasimir engines have like 5N of thrust. GL accelerating a 500t ship with that to get anywhere in time. You also need Argon as fuel for that - and lots of it. Not as much as you would need with chemical rockets, but it's still tonnes and tonnes of fuel to get that engine going anywhere. Plus, even IF you have a fusion plant on board - which is ALSO a LONG shot away for us now - you still need to get rid of excess heat, which is VERY hard in space. So it can't do a trip "easily" - it's still very hard to do

 

1 hour ago, Arctic_fox said:

Lastly on FTL and effort. i already added the qualifier "if it can be done" i.e its not something we can predict. For effort its not as hard as YOU seem to think. As i said with todays tech if we were backed to a wall we COULD build a generational ship that could make the trip. Or if we find any of the other aformentioned techs it becomes even easier. Moreso if we move out into space as our limiting factor for effort right now is cost to orbit. Remove that as a major factor beyond getting the first few thousand up to orbit and lots of doors open.

 

Afterall its far easier to STAY in space then to GET to space and established there. Once the first ore extraction, fuel refineing, materials and oxygen factorys open up staying in space long term becomes pretty easy provideimg we can overcome the gravity problem via say spin stations.

Yeah sure, we COULD build it. That doesn't mean it'll work or do anything to shorten any travel times, which was my original point.

Getting to space into a low earth orbit is hard too and yes, it's way easier to go from there. But even with lots of budget you can't simply ignore travel times and all sorts of problems once you arrive (as explained - in some major points).

 

Staying in space is easier when you're self sufficient - yes. But that's just "staying there". This is about "getting somewhere else than our solar system". And there you have lots of limiting factors which are VERY HARD to overcome