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Odendis

Bounty / Commission / Quest board

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I've tried to find a topic or blog about this but it seems everyone is only concerned about placing bounties on people.  I feel like we could use a system in place where we can request services (as well as consorts: additional assistance on the specific task agreed), and rate the poster, tender, and consorts.  

 

workflow can be similar to:

  1. Poster posts the commission with reward
  2. Prospects bid to be accepted
  3. Poster, accepts a given number of prospects to tend to the commission
  4. Tenders repeats 1-3 if consorts are needed
  5. Tender executes the commission and reports it's done
  6. Poster confirms or denies the commission
  7. Everyone rates each other

 

Services tendered can include the following:

  • Bounties / Raids
  • Building (ships, stations, bases, cities, houses, etc.)
  • Material / Element fetching
  • Escorts, Patrols, Defence, etc.

 

There are a few considerations that would still need to be done though.  This is susceptible to social engineering, so duplicate ratings should be handled with priority to the latest by that person.  Older duplicate ratings should have a steep fall off if considered at all.

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NQ's plan is to handle all of this with their RDMS (Rights and Dutys Management System), so it will be 100% player managed - they talk about it in a devblog: 

 

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I don't think the two are quite related (or maybe I'm missing something).  Though, I would like to see this RDMS system fleshed out more. 

 

The blog doesn't really cover specifically how money changes hands, nor how to ensure services and rewards are rendered.

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They talk about RDMS more in a few other places, including one of their dev vlogs.  I agree it isn't clear at this point how to apply it to being a quest board or the like, but they are planning to make RDMS THE management tool for the game.  I think players will make systems like quest boards and reputation systems work using the tools NQ provides.

 

Regardless, its a civilization building game- if you don't trust that the person giving the quest will compensate you, then don't take their quest.  I expect reputation will be worth its weight in gold.

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I realized that something game-wide like that would be difficult or eat up alot of time on NQ's part, so I wanted to bring it up here in case someone else had ideas.  

 

I guess something similar would not be too difficult (but tedious) to do on a local level with LUA as long as you can access some kind of UUID (ie. character name) from the accessing player and were able to store a large amount of data.  Maybe I'll try to make one in the Beta if they haven't announced anything yet that would cover that need.

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7 minutes ago, Odendis said:

I realized that something game-wide like that would be difficult or eat up alot of time on NQ's part, so I wanted to bring it up here in case someone else had ideas.  

 

I guess something similar would not be too difficult (but tedious) to do on a local level with LUA as long as you can access some kind of UUID (ie. character name) from the accessing player and were able to store a large amount of data.  Maybe I'll try to make one in the Beta if they haven't announced anything yet that would cover that need.

Hello, just read that, how fortunate, mp me i guess.

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6 hours ago, SGCam said:

They talk about RDMS more in a few other places, including one of their dev vlogs.  I agree it isn't clear at this point how to apply it to being a quest board or the like, but they are planning to make RDMS THE management tool for the game.  I think players will make systems like quest boards and reputation systems work using the tools NQ provides.

 

Regardless, its a civilization building game- if you don't trust that the person giving the quest will compensate you, then don't take their quest.  I expect reputation will be worth its weight in gold.

A quest or job can be abstract in its nature making it near impossible for enforcement to exist as rules of the game. That being said, some form of abstract work related contracts can still be made enforceable and can be done entirely by players without NQ involvement by means of enforcement bodies. A government like organization would have some form of judicial system where claims can be made. The government organization would also have some sort of policing to uphold and make enforceable,  contracts made between citizens/other organizations, within the jurisdiction of said government. For such a concept to exist and function, citizens would need to pay a tax to the government in return for legal or any other types of protection from that government.

Trust is a key point. Citizens need to trust the government to act honestly and fairly so as to know their tax money is to good use. Disputes between players that lie outside the jurisdiction (i.e. citizens vs non citizens) of the government organization would not be resolved by the government and therefore contracts cannot be made enforceable. In this case, the willingness to agree to a contract depends on the players risk tolerance as well as the trust the player has of the other player.

 

I really hope the emergent gameplay allows for such organic complex civilizations to arise.

 

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That's why I suggested a review system for some kind of centralized reputation.

 

I don't know what enforcement options other players will have other than destruction outside of safe zones though.  I'm not even sure I want to suggest anything along those lines.  At the most, it would be along the lines of timed imprisonment (based on a monetary amount) for dieing within a tile where you are marked by the RDMS system after 30 minutes of the bounty being set on your head (to prevent people from being ambushed).  Along that line, also display a warning for tiles where you are wanted.

 

Atleast, with a reputation system, we can generally shun that player in terms of contracts.

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@Odendis @SGCam @Sybily

 

So, this has been discussed before a few times.

 

Basically there will be a contract system. The way it will work is a player can create contracts for missions, there will be different types like Transport goods from A to B, Bounty to kill X player, stuff like that. So when you create the contract you set the amount to be paid, the game locks this amount in a escrow until the contract if filled or cancel.

Then you can put the contract out for other players to see if they want to take the job, I believe there will even be a section in the market unit for missions as well. Or a separate element just for Contracts. Anyway, when a player accepts the contract, and completes the mission, the money/payment would be delivered to them.

 

So the basic idea of how this will work it like this. Example: you create a contract because you need someone to transport 2000 km3 of Iron Ore from planet Alioth, and deliver it to a specific location on the moon, you offer to pay 5000 quanta. The money is placed in escrow, and the Iron Ore is held in a storage unit by the game, attached to a local market unit.

A space trucker player comes along and checks the markets looking for work, they see you're contract and accept it. The Space Trucker is then given access to the 2000 km3 Iron Ore in a storage unit so they can take it from the market unit, and load it into their ship or hovercraft. They then take the Ore to the specific location on the moon and deliver the ore using the market unit on the moon. The game confirms that the 2000 km3 of Iron Ore has been deposited, then the 5000 quanta is released from escrow and into the Space Truckers account.

 

That's the current idea Novaquark is going for. This type of system is very flexible and can be used to do almost any type of mission contract.

 

 

Quote about the Contracts System from 2016 kickstarter AMA event, keep in mind that the game has grown a lot sense then:

Quote

 

It was said that players will have to travel to or hire someone to retrieve their purchased items from the store they were sold at. How will the hiring someone else work?

This is the contract system, that will allow to hire someone (and make publicity about it, so that you can get candidates) to do a task in exchange of money or goods. The enforcement of the contract will be handled by the game, to avoid the problem of building trust. It will also be possible to setup collaterals to protect your goods against stealing or destruction. The contract system is still in discussion at the moment, and may not make it to the first release of the game (but will be in a future expansion in any case).

 

source:  https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php/topic/10110-kickstarter-ama-event-second-part/

 

sorry, I can't find more recent info to quote.

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Everything about what I was talking about won't be "explicit" functions offered by the game. I'm talking about dynamic civilizations that will be bootstrapped entirely by players. A government becomes a government because players cohesively organize together provided there is a demand for a government with enforcement mechanisms. And means of enforcement are not built in as a function of the game , but rather players themselves enforce the rules they themselves create. They will enforce a set of rules principally because they have the power to do so (i.e. more military/firepower that is sustained through government funding).

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@Sybily There is nothing stopping players from doing things that way if they want. Some player nations like the Terrain Union have already drafted up detailed municipal documents regarding how Codes of conduct, business deals, laws and enforcement, and other things will be handle in there nation.

 

So if that's what you want to do, then go for it. :)

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1 hour ago, Sybily said:

And means of enforcement are not built in as a function of the game , but rather players themselves enforce the rules they themselves create. 

I'm all for civilization/nation building, but a means to enforce must be atleast granted by the game.  The only things I've seen talked about openly is the destruction of constructs outside of safe zones.  It's worrying to consider asking for more power/control over other players than just that as it may create toxic environments.  On the other hand, simply destruction is not a viable threat to most people who would want to do you harm as they will probably have all of their valuables in a safe zone.  There are also other actors who will play with nothing to lose, and may be used as puppets to do harm to other players. 

 

I'm sorry I can't be more constructive on this part :(

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1 hour ago, Odendis said:

I'm all for civilization/nation building, but a means to enforce must be atleast granted by the game. 

Absolutely disagree. Doing so would not allow meaningful emergent gameplay. If the game/NQ does this then there is no incentive for players to do it. What would be the point of organizations to focus on security or other government structures if the game gives it away for free? There aren't many companies in real life that sell air to breath because there's near infinite supply, thus no demand. The point of emergent gameplay is to give purpose to the things you do. There will be no purpose for a kind of government focused organization to exist if the functions are already provided by the game.

It would be inaccurate to think that player based enforcement mechanisms would be less effective than one built in game because players can offer a human touch, whereas game logic cannot. Sure a finite number of things can be enforced by the game but there is no way game logic could possibly understand abstract/complex kinds of contracts/quests that players might come up with. 

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I think you misunderstand what I mean by granted by the game.  I mean in game mechanics that allow players to enforce their laws (or simply their will).  I don't want the system to enforce them for us, but simply give us the means to do so.  In which, I only see two fairly weak ones, player killing and usage rights.

 

Examples of this would be (all limited to owned territories...and even then I suggest these with great hesitation):

  • the ability to capture other players
  • the subsequent ability to fine other players
  • the subsequent ability to imprison players based on a amount paid by the owner of the territory (with average reasonable costs equating to 1-2 hours, and exponentially rising to make bounties past 6 hours cost prohibitive outside of mega-corp orgs, and 2 days outside the range of multi-org coalitions)

Subversion, exploitation, espionage, psychological operations, and their reverse side (COIN) are areas of study that interest me due to my hobby of being a living history reenactor.  I have read nothing anywhere that would substantially deter me from doing other players harm, and recruiting other players to set up enclaves and networks to sustain such activity.

 

From what I've read, there is very little risk; especially when failure means you simply lose what you've brought, respawn somewhere safe,  and then amass and build again to do it over. (ultimately negating death as an impactful penalty)

 

The safe zones prevent total catastrophe, and allow peaceful players to be as they wish.  They prevent players from being malicious and wiping out entire cities, which is awesome.  However, they also keep the blackmarket down the street safe, completely bypassing any RDMS enforcement. (negating usage rights as a impactful penalty)

 

I'm not saying that it should be easy to completely rout malicious players.  I'm saying in the moment of engagement the risk of loss lies extremely heavily on the prey.

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@Sybily The game mechanics will create an environment where emergent game play can happen. Players will naturally create enforcement mechanisms  for themselves, and behavior that governs how the community of players will play the game. This is literally already happening in the community with various Orgs and players, and the games mechanics are designed in a way to help players facilitate this without forcing anything on to player community.

 

 

All the stuff you've been saying isn't emergent game play at all, what you've been describing is just pure unhinged chaos.

cha·os

/ˈkāˌäs/
noun
  • behavior so unpredictable as to appear random.

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Real life is completely unhinged from higher powers than ourselfs (depending on your religion or lack thereof). In spite of this, humanity has done pretty well evolving into a complex social structure that we are.  The lack of rules to govern us are what gives the demand for rules which we create ourselves. This is the beauty of the real universe we live in.

 

Tweet from @jcbaillie https://twitter.com/jcbaillie/status/1071806930107142144

 

not sure how to quote from other threads...

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php/topic/10110-kickstarter-ama-event-second-part/

Quote


 

Why such a title for this game? Is there a secret entry somewhere for an anteverse? Dual Universe means two of them, right? A normal one and an antimatter one.

 

The name of the game is refering the well known concept of duality in mathematics: two entities are "dual" when they have a different form, but share the same functional structure. You can "map" one to the other. We like to think that DU could be the "dual" of the real world one day: another form, but the same core dynamics! Check this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duality_(mathematics)

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Sybily said:

In spite of this, humanity has done pretty well evolving into a complex social structure that we are. 

If you watched a feature film about all the secret police and wartime programs that go on under the hood, DU would probably have a sequel.  And this is if you just limited it to the past century and only the G20 nations.

 

In the mean time, we're digressing for the most part, and in reality just talking at each other rather than with each other.  So if we want to continue on the debate, we should make a new thread for enforcement mechanisms and the debate of them.

 

Otherwise, I think we should wait sometime to revisit the topic of contracts themselves until more information is available.

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Only read the first couple posts, but in a game like this, everything should be player run. A Bounty Hunter group can easily build a website and have a form people can fill out for jobs and a bounty board can both easily be done with some simple HTML knowledge. <Almost put some NDA stuff here> Um...hmm, not sure how to talk about in-game stuff without mentioning which items can be used to do all the above in-game.

 

NQ is doing a good job of allowing creativity. I will leave it at that.

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