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Vyz Ejstu

Build Mechanics: Hacks and Overpowered weapons? Curse in disguise?

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"Good day, fellow members of the Dual Universe Forum.

Like an astounding fraction of people here, I have found a great interest in the creation process Dual Universe has created.

Most wonderful of all, I believe, is the fact that while templates are going to be available, most or all of the code can and will be done by the players.

 

While this may allow for stunning creations like "Pacific Rim meets Gears of War"; inventions to darker "George Orwell's "1984" meets Ex Machina", the real problem lies with the benefit itself: codes.

 

Where the player inventions simply to be tried and tested against NPCs, who am I to complain? (after all, we humans like battering digital units without any conscience coming to sting us later on...like Witcher 3...or Doom...or soon to be harassed Dual Universe NPCs...)

My concern is that codes, basically interact with other codes that can be decoded, recoded or bloody well explode in your face. 

 

What happens when a designer creates a weapon with a kill range of 70,000 units and a damage variable thrice that amount? Or....

A ship with a hilariously high health value and a repair snippet that adds twice the maximum health every millisecond? Or...

Codes that change the values of their coded targets, leaving the attack or defence in a quite proverbial "Waterloo"?

I do hope that I'm not sounding like a Prophet of Doom to the poor inhabitants of Pompeii, but I do hope the developers have this volcano in check, or at least a force field to keep the lava from raining down on our heads.

 

Lastly, player created AI is going to be as much a blessing to people here as the electric bulb was to our ancestors in the late nineteenth century. In retrospect, it would be a curse to many as much as a future "SkyNet" may be to our descendants in years to come. To be quite frank, some people here may already be working on a doomsday "SkyNet" for the poor people who are unlucky enough to come across it.

 

The point is, some clear controls need to be put in place. And I hope the Guardians of the Dual Universe are several steps ahead of us.

Pax Vobiscum.

"

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You can create anything until game mechanic say "no" and you cannot bypass core "laws" of game engine. So devs for sure will implement some "brakes" to game mechanic to ban such OP constructions. Like maximal values for dmg, speed possible to achieve and so on. I see no threat here.

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You are confusing programming with whatever Hollywood misconception of programming you are confusing it with :P .

Game engines have a render distance, and Dual Universe's Unigine 2 is no exception. You may see something at 18000 kilometers, it doesn't mean you can target it. It's there as a background drawing by the server, that keeps it in check for you to know it's there, usually in low texture to give the apperence of blur. So, no, nobody will make a 70000 units death machine.


The autorepair snippet is cool, but you need to have materials to repair anything. The devs said that a ship's design plays a role. You need a frame, a power grid, a DPU (items that hold LUA scripts in them) in a proper grid and relevant power cores to keep up the supply for the demand.  Hitpoints, is something irrelevant to this. If a passing fleet guts your power grid, you need to fix that grid and if your A.I. needs power ,that's up to the hands of the repair crew to fix the power-grid before the enemy makes a turn for another firing run. It's a vague example, but stay with me on this.

LUA, is an amazing and easy to use language, but it can't make miracles happen. If it was so easy to create SkyNet, be sure that the chinese would have done it already, they have probably the best coders on the planet. Furthermore, the Devs have probably figured out a way to minimise Automation to simple function loops in the code to prevent any DPU from going into a loop that can crash the server, because, you know, trolls.

While you can make an A.I. mecha, that mecha runs on fuel and it needs to follow the rules of a construct, it's not eternal. If Element targeting is in the game, meaning you can lock on a construct's particular Element (as the devs call items of mesh-work), be sure that people will find a way to bring down that Mecha by knee-capping it, or taking off its radar module or sensor node, metaphorically headshoting it or eye-gouging it. Those A.I. would be only automated IFF-read, tag, executor drones, not real A.I. and yes, if a mecha is poorly coded, it could go haywire if its IFF (Identify Friend of Foe) module is blown to bits, leading it to turn on its own side, since it's automated, giving the enemy a fighting chance, exploiting poorly thought-out designs.


Everything balances out on its own.


Peace be with you.

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"Pacific Rim meets Gears of War"

 

Now I'm imagining a Jaeger armed with an appropriately scaled up Lancer assault rifle.  I don't care how impractical it is, someone has to build this.

 

Anyway I think player-created codes are already kept in check by limitations of the specific elements.  Space Engineers has a similar mechanic in place, allowing players to run scripts in C# from the programmable block.  However, scripts can only be used to instruct elements to do things that they are normally capable of doing and, as far as I know, functional elements are all pre-made, not player-made.  To extend the Space Engineers example I can build a small craft which contains a missile launcher.  I have at least three ways to instruct that missile launcher to fire.  Method 1:  Attach a cockpit, take a seat, set the launcher as my active weapon and click my fire button.  Method 2:  Attach a button somewhere on the ship, set that button's command to fire a missile and push the button.  Method 3:  Attach a programmable block, write an instruction in the script which commands the launcher to fire under some circumstances, maybe in response to a hostile walking in range of a sensor.  With the right scripts and sensors I can set up a fully automated attack drone.  However, the missile launcher recognizes a specific command to fire; it does not recognize any instruction to bypass its normal functionality, such as "immediately refill ammo" or "fire 200 missiles at once in every direction."  If I tried to write a script in that programmable block to do this the game wouldn't understand what my block is trying to tell it and the launcher will take no action.  Presumably DU's player scripts will work the same way, only able to reference sensors that the player has access to and only able to instruct elements to perform actions that they could otherwise.

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You can create anything until game mechanic say "no" and you cannot bypass core "laws" of game engine. So devs for sure will implement some "brakes" to game mechanic to ban such OP constructions. Like maximal values for dmg, speed possible to achieve and so on. I see no threat here.

 

"Well said and thank you for your reply.

I thought so as well. But, you see, that's only half of the problem. Greater damage == equals higher price. I am in no wise a professional economist but, this should ring a  bell in every one's head. The more the quality, the more expensive the price. Granted, game mechanics and laws will be implemented, but how will they stop cheap projectiles and "just add water" defences from boasting the capability of traditionally (and reasonably more expensive) gadgets that exist in the market? 

 

 To some extent, this idea sounds most appealing. I am first of all a consumer--as will all of us be at some point-- and I rub my hands in gremlin like glee at the cheap prices for great defences and machinery.

But, the downside is this: things will be created just for looks rather than focusing on functionality and actual game mechanics (at least where weapons are concerned). Unless you want to break the ceremonial bottle of wine on this ship with an economic war, prices and quality need to be ever so delicately balanced on a near perfect scale.

Pax Vobiscum.

"

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Now I'm imagining a Jaeger armed with an appropriately scaled up Lancer assault rifle.  I don't care how impractical it is, someone has to build this.

 

 

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED

 

 

PROJECT : MechaArcher confirmed.

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"Well said and thank you for your reply.

I thought so as well. But, you see, that's only half of the problem. Greater damage == equals higher price. I am in no wise a professional economist but, this should ring a  bell in every one's head. The more the quality, the more expensive the price. Granted, game mechanics and laws will be implemented, but how will they stop cheap projectiles and "just add water" defences from boasting the capability of traditionally (and reasonably more expensive) gadgets that exist in the market. 

 

 To some extent, this idea sounds most appealing. I am first of all a consumer--as will all of us be at some point-- and I rub my hands in gremlin like glee at the cheap prices for great defences and machinery.

But, the downside is this: things will be created just for looks rather than focusing on functionality and actual game mechanics (at least where weapons are concerned). Unless you want to break the ceremonial bottle of wine on this ship with an economic war, prices and quality need to be ever so delicately balanced on a near perfect scale.

Pax Vobiscum.

"

Of course it would cost more to have a fully-automated ship. It would cost a lot to fly it as well, due to its power consumption and refuelling needs.

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You are confusing programming with whatever Hollywood misconception of programming you are confusing it with :P .

 

Game engines have a render distance, and Dual Universe's Unigine 2 is no exception. You may see something at 18000 kilometers, it doesn't mean you can target it. It's there as a background drawing by the server, that keeps it in check for you to know it's there, usually in low texture to give the apperence of blur. So, no, nobody will make a 70000 units death machine.

 

 

The autorepair snippet is cool, but you need to have materials to repair anything. The devs said that a ship's design plays a role. You need a frame, a power grid, a DPU (items that hold LUA scripts in them) in a proper grid and relevant power cores to keep up the supply for the demand.  Hitpoints, is something irrelevant to this. If a passing fleet guts your power grid, you need to fix that grid and if your A.I. needs power ,that's up to the hands of the repair crew to fix the power-grid before the enemy makes a turn for another firing run. It's a vague example, but stay with me on this.

 

LUA, is an amazing and easy to use language, but it can't make miracles happen. If it was so easy to create SkyNet, be sure that the chinese would have done it already, they have probably the best coders on the planet. Furthermore, the Devs have probably figured out a way to minimise Automation to simple function loops in the code to prevent any DPU from going into a loop that can crash the server, because, you know, trolls.

 

While you can make an A.I. mecha, that mecha runs on fuel and it needs to follow the rules of a construct, it's not eternal. If Element targeting is in the game, meaning you can lock on a construct's particular Element (as the devs call items of mesh-work), be sure that people will find a way to bring down that Mecha by knee-capping it, or taking off its radar module or sensor node, metaphorically headshoting it or eye-gouging it. Those A.I. would be only automated IFF-read, tag, executor drones, not real A.I. and yes, if a mecha is poorly coded, it could go haywire if its IFF (Identify Friend of Foe) module is blown to bits, leading it to turn on its own side, since it's automated, giving the enemy a fighting chance, exploiting poorly thought-out designs.

 

 

Everything balances out on its own.

 

 

Peace be with you.

"Great, that headshot takes a few Gremlins along with it. The balances you mentioned are and will be great, but what happens if a stationary object is given these (as you mentioned,) impossible advantages? I don't know yet if certain kinds of building materials/components could be housed, say underground. Perhaps, there is a law to this as well. I do Java and I know that while it may be hard to put certain limits in place, you can't catch them all and certainly not on the first try. I, personally do not know the extent of the modules that are going to be deployed in the game, but I trust the developers to come up with something efficient and how do I say it...? Limiting to an extent?

Pax Vobiscum.

"

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Of course it would cost more to have a fully-automated ship. It would cost a lot to fly it as well, due to its power consumption and refuelling need

"When you said "it would cost more to have a fully-automated ship", the first thing that came to mind was: how much would it cost to fly a Star Destroyer or something similar to Battlestar Galactica. Something like a Star Killer Base definitely would bring Winter upon us early. Are you up for that *small* challenge?

Pax Vobiscum.

"

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"Great, that headshot takes a few Gremlins along with it. The balances you mentioned are and will be great, but what happens if a stationary object is given these (as you mentioned,) impossible advantages? I don't know yet if certain kinds of building materials/components could be housed, say underground. Perhaps, there is a law to this as well. I do Java and I know that while it may be hard to put certain limits in place, you can't catch them all and certainly not on the first try. I, personally do not know the extent of the modules that are going to be deployed in the game, but I trust the developers to come up with something efficient and how do I say it...? Limiting to an extent?

Pax Vobiscum.

"

Any developer that implements any form of script in its game engine can elect to remove certain commands, or simplify them. The devs can remove many functions they deem to "easy" to exploit, but as we all know, programming is the opposite of the scientific method. It's not about "Why things work like that" it's about "let's patch around the problem altogether guys". If they don't allow me to have a cohesive code, I can come up with heckton of ideas and schemes to patch around it, mixing DPUs, creating elaborate automated binary systems, what-have-you.

 

As for stationary targets, the same rules apply. If you can target the turret, go for it. If a ground force can find the turret, get near it, and dismantle its targeing DPU, do it. Probably with many casualties in the process, but you know, nobody wanted to be in Operation OVerlod, but they got the job doen for the rest of the main army.

 

As for buildings, as I explained to Archer in a PM, you can set up keypress passwords with LUA, therefore giving your home a security code. IF you are in a city, said code can be part of the city's grid, sending a message to ANY one guard that your home is being invaded if the DPU detects structural damage.

 

LUA is magic good sir. And it's magic everyone can learn in a 10 page manual. And Java is kind of glue, it's meant to stick things where they shouldn't stick, while C is duct tape. All three have merits, but LUA is the one that doesn't need 4 years of CSD to figure it out.

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"When you said "it would cost more to have a fully-automated ship", the first thing that came to mind was: how much would it cost to fly a Star Destroyer or something similar to Battlestar Galactica. Something like a Star Killer Base definitely would bring Winter upon us early. Are you up for that *small* challenge?

Pax Vobiscum.

"

 I can't tell, Depends on how difficult of a project it would be, how much time was involved, how many people were involed ESPECIALLY for the BSG. That jetcraft bay is not going to be cheap yo, especailly with Starbucks in there. :P

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 I can't tell, Depends on how difficult of a project it would be, how much time was involved, how many people were involed ESPECIALLY for the BSG. That jetcraft bay is not going to be cheap yo, especailly with Starbucks in there. :P

 

"Prove you can do it. Somehow, I may just manage to pay for twenty or so cups. *Terms and Condition apply(Naturally)

Pax Vobiscum.

"

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"Prove you can do it. Somehow, I may just manage to pay for twenty or so cups. *Terms and Condition apply(Naturally)

Pax Vobiscum.

"

I believe my first order of business will be to build an actual Gypsy Danger good sir. Because them Kaiju won't kill themselves and, well, because I like stomping things :P

 

BSG is a large ship. 

 

The way I see it, enormous capital ship designs will be an undertaking either rich independent corporations will be able to pull of, with a "dark space" kind of zone for RnD without prying eyes, or factions/empires that can afford to have it built in secret without, again, prying eyes. After all, last thing you want is for someone to know where your ship's data-brain is at. Having a ship having a stroke ain't fun.

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I believe my first order of business will be to build an actual Gypsy Danger good sir. Because them Kaiju won't kill themselves and, well, because I like stomping things :P

 

BSG is a large ship. 

 

The way I see it, enormous capital ship designs will be an undertaking either rich independent corporations will be able to pull of, with a "dark space" kind of zone for RnD without prying eyes, or factions/empires that can afford to have it built in secret without, again, prying eyes. After all, last thing you want is for someone to know where your ship's data-brain is at. Having a ship having a stroke ain't fun.

"I can literally see a BSG dancing to Michael Jackson's "Bad". Not surprisingly, it is taunting me. Pax Vobiscum."

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What happens when a designer creates a weapon with a kill range of 70,000 units and a damage variable thrice that amount? Or....

A ship with a hilariously high health value and a repair snippet that adds twice the maximum health every millisecond? Or...

Well, put these two up against each other and I don't see a problem. If these kinds of designs are possible, so would a fast ship that would evade lock-on with electronic-counter measures. Swoop in blow up the weapon and then come in and pound with the self-repairing armored ship.

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Well, put these two up against each other and I don't see a problem. If these kinds of designs are possible, so would a fast ship that would evade lock-on with electronic-counter measures. Swoop in blow up the weapon and then come in and pound with the self-repairing armored ship.

"Well, it would be nice if that was possible, but a lot has come to the light, especially with the revelation of how the DPU will work. Such values and combinations just won't be possible or fair. We can work towards perfection, but over powered units and weapons will not be in Dual Universe. At least, not now!"

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"Thankfully, we won't be seeing any of that in Dual Universe!"

But a limited version of it, just need to see what the final LUA will allow us to, thats going to be a very fun part

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