Zamiel7
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Posts posted by Zamiel7
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Tech issues can be a real killer for many people, there's no doubt about that. I have one friend that gave it a shot but was unable to play effectively due to his computer specs. Admittedly, he could use an upgrade, but the point remains that optimization is a breaking point for many people.
But with that said, I think the existence of content that people are actually able to commit to in meaningful ways (e.g. multi-faceted player-driven economy, territory warfare, and exciting/rewarding exploration) will keep people coming back and renewing their subscriptions. DU already has a fantastic construct building system, and while that alone is enough to keep many people engaged, the above mentioned features ought to drive even greater retention.
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13 minutes ago, LouHodo said:
They are pretty useful for seeing those who are camping just inside of the safe zone to gank you.
That's fair. Admittedly, my organization and I tend to be the ones actively looking for PvP and along the routes between planets where atmospheric radar has no use.
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You might have a point that the goal of PvP right now is to take the other person's ship wholesale, but there's no way that can or should be the case going forward. Sure, you should be able to get something from taking down someone else's ship, and I actually quite like Johnny's idea of having salvage skills to glean parts and such from a wrecked ship. Maybe you have the chance of recovering damaged/destroyed elements, or being able to loot damaged/destroyed containers for their contents, but being able to walk away with an entire ship is ridiculous.
Also, let's not forget that the reward of PvP is not always material in nature. I imagine quite a lot of PvP will happen over being able to secure valuable resources/territory or simply because two organizations are attempting to undermine each other's efforts to expand/conduct operations. And this is to say nothing of the intrinsic rewards of PvP because even in it's current state, I do think it's still pretty fun and engaging, and it's hopefully only going to get better.
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That might very well be a bug. My understanding was that if you removed a TU and renounced the claim on a territory, the next territory you claimed would cost the same as the previously claimed (now unclaimed) territory.
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2 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:
Well I did give an example either in this thread or in another post that games which use the word combat instead of PvP has less of this division because the community perceive things differently (ex: ED VS SE), so it is my belief that it does matter
I think the heart of the conflict is based around people's expectations not being met. One extreme side of the spectrum is a group of people who expect to be able to attack whoever they want, wherever they want, so anything that curtails that is undermining their expectations. The same is true for the opposite extreme: some people just want to be able to mine, build, and trade without having to worry about other players interfering with that. Whether we call it PvP, PvE, PvPvE, combat, emergent gameplay, sandbox mechanics, or anything else will not change divergent player expectations. As I said, there's merit in what you are saying. How players perceive mechanics matters, but I'm skeptical of how much that perception is rooted in language and semantics. Perhaps the best point in your favor is that the term "PvP" has accrued powerful connotations, both positive and negative, and so its use might very well be deleterious to the discussion. But at the end of the day, I'm not sure it's possible, much less effective, to try to alter the vocabulary at this point.
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Not a whole lot of use for atmospheric radars right now given that atmospheric PvP isn't a thing yet, so I don't know that there needs to be a lot of concern directed there, at least for now. The definitive radar setup for space seems to be having a small radar linked to your pilot seat and a large radar linked to your primary gunner seat. The pilot won't be able to identify (re: lock) any targets meaningfully, but having the small radar means they will be able to see the same targets the gunner is actually identifying and maneuver the ship accordingly.
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On 11/6/2020 at 7:28 PM, Atmosph3rik said:
And your goal in catching your enemy by surprise would be to, avoid combat.
Catching your enemy by surprise isn't avoiding combat so much as it is ensuring an optimal outcome for combat on your end. An engagement does not have to be fair or preferable for both parties to be considered combat by definition. One could argue that the people who are "best" at combat are the ones that don't take fights they aren't reasonably sure they will win.
Of course, this is all semantics and pedantry at the end of the day. Whether you call it combat, PvP, or some other nonsense, there is still going to be a group of people that create and participate in the meta of it and a group that is unable or unwilling to do so.
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11 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:
That can easily be fixed by talent points not increasing offline - or even better, only increasing by corresponding gameplay (e.g. mining skills increase by mining only, piloting skills by piloting and so on).
If you make it so that talent points don't increase while offline, all you've effectively done is forced players to idle while staying logged into the server, which is a terrible idea from multiple perspectives (forces players to keep computers on, potentially stresses the server unnecessarily, to name the big ones). Giving people bonuses for accomplishing things isn't a bad idea though, and it technically already exists in the game in the form of bonus talent points from achievements.
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You make a good point, and I even think there's merit in just referring to it as combat, but if you asked me if I thought semantics actually mattered in any kind of substantive way, the answer would be no. I think it's more or less a diversion from the real problem that is divergent player expectations.
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On 11/3/2020 at 5:45 AM, Ochiniwa said:
I have been playing this game now for about 3 weeks and I tend to disagree with that statement above and rather agree with the initial statement that the game is too easy. If the above was so true, then you do not need any skillpoints at all.
Basically I think a lot can be done around the skills and I am inspired by Eve Online and would have loved to something similar here. However what I found is that everyone can do everything from the beginning and the skills are "merely" done for them to do it better (more efficient, faster, better). I would have loved that skills unlock certain things like for example:
- Lower skills you can only place XS cores and interact with ships of XS cores. As such some people might focus on smaller ships and only later go up to Large Cores
- Lower skills allow you to only produce certain products and skills unlock products
- Lower skills do not allow you to mine/refine certain minerals
- Lower skills do not allow you to use certain voxels,
-... etc... the possibilities are infinite here
I hope you get my point, basically the skill based tree brings you through the game slowly but surely and within a certain amount of time you are able to do most of the things and then focus on specialisation. (I.e. copy the skill tree of Eve Online which I think is the best skill tree I have see up to now).
This will also avoid that players within 3 weeks do have warp drives and can go anywhere they want and do anything they want without worrying about any PVP.
my 50 cents.
PS: I am in favor of a restart even if it is shortly before release....
Yeah, I don't know about this. These "infinite" possibilities you're suggesting are only effective in terms of how they will time-gate content from players and for no particularly good reason. For example, it doesn't matter if players can or can't mine high tier ore without first training a skill because that ore isn't something they would personally have any need for right away and mining it for money is going to be far less efficient than pursuing other avenues to make money.
Skill training as a concept is advantageous not because it time-gates content from players (that is its greatest weakness), but rather because it allows players to progress in the game without having to grind for XP, which has long been considered one of the worst aspects of MMOs. If you just change skill training into another grind, then all you've done is replaced one grind for another, one that players have even less control over.
I quite like the fact that skills in DU don't so much as gate content as they enhance it (getting more return on refining things, more damage from guns, etc.) because that doesn't prevent specialization, but it does prevent new players from feeling like they're useless. Take EVE as an example. Surely you'll remember recruitment posts from corporations requiring that applicants meet certain skill point minimums. That was and is incredibly disheartening to new players looking to join groups and experience the best parts of the game. And, of course, there was nothing more frustrating than looking at ship you want to fly in EVE and then realizing that you'll have to wait for weeks or even months before you can even fly it badly.
Ultimately, you can incentivize specialization without straight up preventing players from being able to interact with certain aspects of the game, and that is the direction DU should probably go.
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I'm not sure I agree with the statement that industry in DU is it's weakest point or even on the weak end of the spectrum, relatively speaking. I think it's absolutely due some much needed improvements and quality of life changes though. And I do agree that the ability to skill into increasing links between containers is worthwhile because the link cap on containers is a seriously limiting factor that I'd like to be able to push the boundaries of a bit. One point of contention: the container hub isn't useless in it's current state. On the contrary, it's absolutely vital in growing industry to its full potential as it currently exists in the game. Pound for pound, container hubs have probably done more for improving and streamlining our industry than any element in the game. Of course, the ability to improve their functionality through skills would still be very appealing!
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As a veteran of EVE, I can vouch that the energy management system and fitting in that game is reasonably well implemented! That being said, I'm curious how a game with start to finish player ship creation will approach imposing reasonable limits without squashing creativity!
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The fact of the matter is the existence of Concord absolutely reduces and/or limits PvP in high security space. I played EVE for upwards of 7 years and you were quantifiably safer in high-security space than in low-security or null-security space (the possible exception being the middle of no-where in null-sec). Your absolute statement that Concord doesn't "limit PvP at all" is ridiculous and almost entirely indefensible because if Concord didn't exist, then high-sec in EVE would be a complete, non-stop warzone, which it isn't and never has been. Is it safe? No, not completely. But it is, generally speaking, orders of magnitude safer than if Concord wasn't there.
You are right about one thing though: ganking in high-sec isn't a random act and does take a lot of organization to pull off effectively in the way you described. Of course, scanning ships for their cargo and choosing only the juiciest ones to spring your suicide gank (or suiciding ganking in general) on wouldn't be required if Concord wasn't there to blow you up. That, by definition, means Concord is having a non-zero effect, doesn't it? You have to be careful about undermining your own point for the purposes of sassing someone
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10 hours ago, Eleete said:
I am not suggesting. They said they will implement it as soon as possible. Its a quote from their last vid.
The only specific limiting factor Entropy mentioned in the video was in regards to weapon sizes, i.e. it won't be possible to put large weapons on an XS core. He also tentatively suggested that weapon sizes might correspond to core sizes, but that is the only specific change he mentioned was coming. He did briefly mention potentially limiting elements, but only briefly and likely in relationship to a larger redesign around construct energy management or something similar. There was no mention of limiting voxels or "everything" as you suggested.
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I love the idea, personally, but it's just not at all very realistic in terms of getting players to stick around. This is a "civilization" building game in a sense because it's primarily player-driven, but I have absolutely no faith that players, by themselves, will be able to create anything approximating fun or balanced on their own without existing, fairly detailed frameworks created by the devs.
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18 minutes ago, Eleete said:
The biggest Challenge for NQ is not to make the Meta of CubeXS to meta CubeM or CubeL
How should they do it ? Limit Voxel m3, Limit Elements, Limit everything and make the players not pay with their cargo for this problems again.While I agree that NQ should be working against this meta as best they can, suggesting that they broadly "limit" things sort of flies in the face of the game's player-driven, sandbox ethos. Freedom for players to build the ships they want to build and do the things they want to do carries a far higher premium.
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The first posted concept of not limiting lock distance to size is, for my money, the absolute best and most necessary change. It is an absolutely overwhelming advantage that XS ships can hit S, M, and L ships from outside of a range that the S, M, and L can even lock the XS. It's such a massive advantage that you really don't even need to worry about preventing XS ships from using large guns because that was never honestly the root of the XS meta problem: the lock distances were. For the sake of balance, lock speed is the only factor that should be affected by the size of a ship.
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On 10/30/2020 at 6:58 PM, blazemonger said:
CONCORD does not in any way prevent anyone from killing someone else, hence they do not limit PVP at all . They merely come in after the fact and by then, the profits are being scooped up by neutral companions.
This is a massive over-simplification. To suggest that Concord doesn't "limit PvP at all" because they only engage and destroy you after the fact fails to acknowledge that in EVE, random high-security (re: "safe-zone") PvP, such as the suicide ganking you are referencing, is completely different in nature and prevalence from low-security and null-security PvP. Yes, you are technically not truly safe anywhere in EVE because you can technically be destroyed by a sufficient group of people that are all willing to lose their ships to gank you and potentially be able to loot your cargo, but functionally the existence of Concord prevents the vast majority of non-sanctioned PvP in EVE's equivalent of DU's safe-zone. Anyone that has played EVE for any decent amount of time should understand this.
I think given DU's inspirations and design focus, drawing parallels to EVE make a lot of sense and can provide the groundwork/inspiration for discussions here, but only if we're making valid comparisons and accurate representations.
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I really, truly fail to see the issue with the current safe-zone, and I'm a player (along with my friends that play) whose top feature is PvP. I think the people that are demanding the safe-zone be limited to Sanctuary/Alioth are failing to see the bigger picture of how a truly player-driven sandbox would fail to function if people had only a small moon/single planet to safely build and run operations on. I desperately want NQ to rework PvP to make it a satisfying and comprehensive experience, but the safe-zone doesn't have anything to do with that. Give people reasons to leave the current safe-zone and there will be no shortage of PvP.
- Emptiness and Atmosph3rik
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11 hours ago, Emptiness said:
Agreed, considering that I was able to relatively casually mine enough resources for a literal fleet of 10 M and 10 L core ships with anti gravity systems, pulsors and warp drives and at least 5 warp beacons (crafting time not included).
Had 200k cobaltite, 50-100k of each of the other t4s, 300k petalite and 50-150k of the other t3s...
But then, that was also due to the absurd ease of scanning 3 territories at a time with a 3 territory scanner ship, and later doubling it up with a second tri-scanner ship.
Territory scanners need a huge nerf. I think they should be locked behind skills.. at least a month's worth. And be a lot harder to make. And maybe change from a hex based scan system to scanning all the ores within a ~2km radius. Triangulation would be needed before locations could be even roughly determined; not this lottery winner system where one can instantly drop a TCU.
Okay, lets be real though: there's nothing casual about this much mining. Casual is the people that log in once a day and mine just enough for what they immediately need and maybe not even that. Casual miners also don't have what is, objectively, the best mining setup in the game with a triple scanner ship, let alone two, and they aren't getting any T4-T5 ore, let alone excesses of 50-100k.
Mining may very well be too easy, but I think the more pressing issue is that there isn't any permanent loss of elements and there's nothing else to really do on any kind of scale except for mining, hence why everyone has so much raw ore.
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Good stuff! Always glad to see people preparing for things like this to reassure me there's going to be some fireworks at some point! Also, +1 for the carrier/fighter designs.
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I am taken to understand that the first statement in question refers to overt attempts to insult or threaten another player through the use of hateful language pertaining to the mentioned categories. I agree that things should be as specific as possible, but this reads like most statements made in codes of conduct that are designed to remind players that they should not use bigoted language or make actual threats against the players themselves. I do not think it refers to threatening to destroying someone's ship, org, etc. if they, for example, don't pay you a ransom. I fully expect at some point for certain organizations to, say, threaten smaller organizations or individual players with destruction if they have the strength to do so. All part of the sandbox experience.
The same goes for the other rules. I think they refer to the real-world players themselves, not their avatars in the game. So, don't try to steal someone's password by imitating an NQ employee, for example.
- DarkAster and Heidenherz
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9 hours ago, sellene said:
I agree with your point, but I'll have to check how high tier ores are distributed in a tile, because the approach I've mentioned of going to the center and down to check for them would still be faster for checking for T3+ ores than the scanners. If ores become more unpredictable the scanner value would be even better and manual searching would take longer. One question here, is the scanner max range 400m of radius or diameter?
First to answer your question, the scanner functions omnidirectionally, so the 400m is a radius. Additionally, you can actually get the max range up to 500m with both Scanner Upgrades and Scanner Advanced Upgrades trained to 5, and it's definitely worth it. As for the question of to scan or not, I think one person would be hard pressed to beat the efficiency of 3 scanners in terms of determining if a tile is worth mining for stuff. If you're just looking for smatterings of ore, sure, just go sans scanner and see what you come up with, but if you're looking for large quantities of specific ores or T4-T5 ore, there's no way you'll beat the efficiency of 3 scanners. And working with a team, this is even more true since you can relegate one person to hopping between borders and scanning three tiles at a time, and having another person(s) mine preliminary discoveries that are only sort of worth it until you find the big score. As for where ore is found, the only determining factor that I'm aware of is depth, so they can be anywhere within the tile along X and Y axes.
As for the force respawn having a cooldown, I think that makes enough sense and I'm fine with it. I see it as less important with mining and "beaming up" though, and more relevant to PvP and being able to constantly respawn after being killed.
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There's definitely some worthwhile ideas kicking around in here, but there are also some things that you might have the wrong impression on:
35 minutes ago, sellene said:-
Remove predictability of ores in planets. As of now the community mapped out, which ore is in which planet at what depth range.
- That leads to safe zone Moons been mined out of higher tier ores.
- That makes will eventually make it even less fun for players that come along later, they will be mining only T1 ores.
The issue here isn't with the predictability of ore appearance; it has more to do with how worthless moons are for mining anything right now. Basically, if you're spending any amount of time mining on moons (other than to get the one mining achievement for mining on 20 different planets/moons) you are straight up wasting your time. Moons have pathetically low amounts of ore, especially for anything above T1. Ultimately, moons should probably be rebalanced to actually be worth mining, but that has nothing to do with ore predictability.
39 minutes ago, sellene said:Scanners are useful only when there is a possibility of untouched areas, but as stated above, it doesn't make sense for players that join later to use them on safe zones planets for instance because it will be mined out.
I disagree with this. Scanners can be useful for confirming whether a mined tile still has any meaningful amount of ore in it. It's been the case for us that we happened upon a tile that had been visibly mined, but had a mostly unfinished mega-node of T1 ore. The people mining originally didn't even come close to finishing it, but also didn't claim the territory, so we were happy to finish it for them. Whether or not it's a safe zone has nothing to do with it.
43 minutes ago, sellene said:Ore depletion and extraction control. To slow down orgs and give solos a better chance and make resources take longer to deplet. As you will see bellow, orgs will still benefic greatly from having multiple players, its just not as unbound as it is right now.
- Make a mining territory unit, that would allow only the owner to extract ore from 3 tiles connected to where placed for X amount a time, (lets say 1 hour).
- Scanners can be used without it but would take longer (20-30 mins).
- It would take Y amount of time (10 min) to claim that land for that X amount of time, but once the process starts it would show on the map for everyone.
- After the land is claimed for mining, the owner can only claim another after the claimed timed plus a V amount of cooldown (maybe 30 min).
- The temporary claim process can be cancelled in the first Z minutes (lets say 2 mins) without penalties but after that it triggers the cooldown.
- Add player and org controlled ways of marking the tiles, right now we have bookmarks but its not visual enough, too hard to determined where have you been. For orgs, make players have to send reports for locations (maybe the scan results) so the org liders can add to an Org view of the map. This later could be one of the player driven missions, to pay outside org players to scan tiles for them.
The issue with these ideas is that they don't actually benefit solo players as you claim they do, and only adds a mostly redundant alternative to just claiming territory. For most mining, claiming territory is totally unnecessary and even counter-productive. A solo player or an organization looking for specific ores can easily just scan, mine, and haul what they need without the need to claim anything. The only time claiming territory for mining becomes a practical need is when you discover a mega node or a tile that has large amounts of a variety of ore, which if that's the case, you'll be wanting to claim that tile semi-permanently (i.e. how it currently works). However, there is an idea here.
Ultimately, what will become one of the biggest downsides to permanently claiming territory will be the fact that everyone will be able to see that territory claimed on the map, and once planetary PvP becomes a thing, that means you've just painted a target on whatever you've claimed. Large organizations will have a huge advantage here because they'll be better able to hold and defend their territory, but solos and small organizations might be interested in the veil of obscurity that comes from not claiming territory. So, perhaps an idea worth mulling over is creating a way to temporarily claim territory that doesn't indicate the territory is claimed on the map. This could give players the chance to be a little sneakier in their activities.
55 minutes ago, sellene said:The ship building needs an overhaul mainly because of PVP purposes, but for more immersion too.
- Voxels should be required to connect parts.
- Voxels should obstruct engine and such.
- Wings should required a bigger spacing, to avoid wing spam.
- Wings flow check should be consider from the entire piece not just a point (people are covering them using voxelmancy)
- Voxels need to be made much stronger so it isnt just a game of hitkills.
- Maybe add shields and reflectors?
I think a lot of these will actually be introduced into the game; I'm pretty sure it was soft-confirmed that shields and such would be added, as well as requiring certain elements like wings/stabilizers be more thoughtfully placed. I wouldn't say that voxels as a whole need to be stronger, but I think there should be more meaningful and balanced roles for the different types of honeycomb. Right now it pretty much seems to boil down to go ultra-light with aluminum or heavy with steel.
59 minutes ago, sellene said:The PVP system - If is going to be tab targeting I suggest
- allowing the pilot to control some guns of his ship, not all.
- each gunner seat to control some guns not all.
- greatly reduce the damage the guns are doing, but also make ships reduce speed when hit and when firing.
- Maybe add a mouse minigame to help increase accuracy and select target. Something like aiming and calibrating the gun.
PvP definitely needs an overhaul and it's planned to receive one. That being said, it is already the case that the pilot and gunner can control some, but not all guns; it all has to do with the PvP capability of the seat in question. Pilots should never be able to both control the ship and wield bigger guns though; that goes against the design ethos of the game in terms of ship design. As for damage, I have no doubt some of the numbers will change, but you have to be careful about just straight nerfing damage; the ability to replace voxels and repair elements currently would mean ships could be damn near indestructible.
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Remove predictability of ores in planets. As of now the community mapped out, which ore is in which planet at what depth range.
The problems with Planned updates and how they will kill PvP
in General Discussions
Posted
I think you're missing the point of what a salvage skill means. The 100% necessary change being suggested is that element destruction needs to be a thing in some form or another for the sake of balancing; it's not realistic or sustainable for the victor in PvP to be able to walk away with someone else's entire ship, the only cost being using scrap to repair it. That is a ridiculous amount of profit for successfully winning a PvP encounter. A proposed salvage skill means that players will have the ability to profit from the wreck of a destroyed ship, but not get an entire new ship out of it. It also means they won't have to necessarily haul the entire wreck back to their base; they could just salvage parts of it on the spot. I'm not sure how any of this "cuts down the speed" of combat; it's not like the targeting is technical enough that you can target specific elements of the ship to more "gently" disable a ship for the purposes of making repairing/salvaging it easier. Fights ought to result in destruction; all the salvaging skill would amount to is being able to glean something from that destruction.
If a player has two computers and is willing to buy two accounts, I can't see any way that NQ would be able or incentivized to punish this. Personally, I don't see any issue with multi-boxing, but as a long-time player of EVE, that was the standard for many players, so I'm used to it. That being said, the issue with the Cube meta has nothing to do with multi-boxing and everything to do with the way core sizes interact with radar and how that makes large railguns oppressively strong. An XS core using large rails can lock and fire upon S, M, and L cores without those cores being able to even lock onto the XS. Doesn't matter if it's one-person multi-boxing or 2+ people working in tandem, that is the broken aspect. But, that brings us to the planned fixes:
NQ-Entropy stated in an interview that they plan to make it so that core size is no longer tied to radar lock distance. This means that an XS core can be locked at the same distance as every other size with a large radar. This alone heavily nerfs the effectiveness of only using XS cores with large railguns because they lose their biggest advantage mentioned above. Entropy also mentioned they are looking into perhaps limiting weapon size to core size, which doesn't merely nerf the current meta, it completely destroys it. I personally don't think locking weapon sizes to core sizes is necessary, but I'm also banking on a more in-depth energy management system to balance issues related to that. Armor should also probably be reworked if only because despite the fact there are tons of different honeycomb, only a handful are actually useful and distinct.