Shredder
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Posts posted by Shredder
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1 hour ago, XKentX said:
Kickstarter mentioned only sanctuary moon as safezone, nothing else.
We now have ALL GAME in safe zone let alone parts of baren empty space no one needs.
Yup, it’s ridiculous. People are only complaining about the prospect of the safe zone being removed because it’s what they’re used to. If it wasn’t there in the first place around the outer planets, then there would be a bigger margin for high tier ores, and the carebears wouldn’t care because they’ve got allioth
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1 hour ago, XKentX said:
There is no PVP atm. If you think going outside safe space and shooting each other while it doesn't have any meaning and both lose (even the winner has all his parts screwed up, no spoils as everything on the loser ship destroyed completely) is PVP you get PVP completely wrong.
There should be something (atm T4/T5 ore) that is ONLY accessible in PVP areas. Something that gives you a REASON to go there and fight. There are none atm. You don't want PVP ? Stick to safe zone mine t3 buy t4/t5. What's the problem ?
Current Warp drives + safezones make PVP completely irrelevant and meaningless.
This.
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Warp is frikking stupid.
Warping should be the quick but risky way to get somewhere.
Slow boating at wide angles should be the slow but low risk method.
Put the warp exit point 2su out in pvp space, with maybe a handful of exits points so PVPers can’t camp it too easily. People can warp at their own risk. Or use scouts. Or build ships with enough tank and accesleration to get them through the 2su of pvp space.
This happened back in 2004 with eve online. They started the game allowing people to warp to within 0km of a jump gate. There was very little risk and it was boring, people insta travelled everywhere. They then (eventually after removing bookmarks) forced people to warp to 15km at the closest, thereby introducing some element of risk, and forcing people to think more tactically. Scouting and ship builds became more important.
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5 minutes ago, DuskLight said:
pvp is good, but is it enough?
It seems that DU is headed towards an endgame model that is entirely predicated on pvp which makes it feel like a giant battle royal with extra steps. Very grindy steps. is that sustainable?
Mining and industry are means to an end, which begs the question, to what end?
Can an MMO be sustainable without any exploration or pve? is pvp enough of a reason to keep you paying your sub?
Let's discuss this.
Yes, I just want pvp.
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Agreed.
Why NQ are so against NPCs I don’t understand.
gives people hat are against pvp something to shoot at, introduces more loss which is needed for markets to function, and gives us something else to do.
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10 minutes ago, Fra119 said:
Ok but that's the price of 1 gun, the full ship might cost between 5 and 10millions, which is not that much IF you include current bot prices into the equation, and they are slowly disappearing.
But also mind that those 5 to 10 millions are per-life, every time you die you need to pay them again.
In the long run it's cheaper to set up a factory for most of said ship's part btw.
It’s the risk of loss that makes pvp enjoyable in these types of games. I have no idea how people are spending 5-10 mil on a medium pvp ship. 3 mil max gets you 10g acceleration and breaking and as much tank as you want from uber cheap voxels. 4 medium guns will be 400k total soon enough, throw in a handful of large space Engines and some voxels and you’re mostly
there.
but again, it’s the fear of loss that makes it worthwhile.
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26 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:
Well, nice points.
Asteroids obvious tied to PvP situation and right now meaningful entry costs fortune -- very little of players (for newbies -- not a chance) can actualy compete for resources here with established powers (who, at least, can use their old stockpiles to some extent). PvP was expensive before, now its kinda ridiculous.
This may (and probably will) ruin whole thing for many if they in PvP zone.
Yet, if they not in PvP zone (so disparity of player "resources" not put in action in full force), it will ruin game even futher economicly, making all what happening even more meaningless. And here even "regenerating space" T1s are not that harmless.
Why do people think pvp is expensive? Medium guns are like 500k, you can mine t1 ore and sell i for 500k in like a couple of hours, that’s cheap? And medium guns will cost more like 100k within a few weeks once prices come down. Compared to time sinks in most mmos that’s peanuts...
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36 minutes ago, Xennial said:
This is exactly the imbalance that exists with PvP. I'm not going to volunteer to put my ship at risk to fight some gunboat just sitting in space waiting for a hapless victim. There is no way I can defend such a ship because the gun boat doesn't have to bother allocating resources to entering the atmo , cargo hauling and just packs it with weapons and armor. Now I will grant you that the warp past PvP mechanic is stupidly carebear and prevents any sort of emergent PvP like me needing to bring combat escorts to prevent my armored hauler from being destroyed before it reaches safe harbor.
Right now I hear the "make them come out of warp in unsafe space". Maybe this helps, but what reason do I have to put in that risk? Just to go get some higher tier ore? I dont' 'need' those high tier weapons / engines , they are just a convenience. PvP needs to have a purpose and right now really there is not much is the realm of purpose other then to gank someones ship parts whoopidy do. The flip side is also true that higher tier ores are woefully underutilized in crafting.
Fair post.
Re warping, it can be balanced by putting you near safe zone, making it difficult for someone to do sufficient damage before you get to safe space. They can also put in multiple exit points. Frankly, if this mechanic was in place then people can simply add tank to their haulage ships, a very simple counter.
If you don’t want to risk it then don’t go to the outer planets, buy the ore instead. Higher end ores would increase in price to match the additional risk. That’s the risk/reward trade off that would both give a purpose to the outer planets and introduce loss to help the markets (as well as cause pvp to naturally occur).
As you point out, higher end ores are under utilised in lower tier items. That should also be balanced.
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43 minutes ago, Xennial said:
They can't even realize that the market can't work with bots. You want them to grok the idea that PvP and forcing everyone into PvP situations to advance is a pillar to a healthy economy? Nevermind that PvP would have to work completely differently then their server/client tech seems to allow for PvP to even be engaging.
I’ve been ‘pvping’ (camping waiting by for something to happen) most days since beta started, I disagree with the assertion that pvp in its current form is boring, it’s very basic, but rarely boring. What’s boring is to at it never happens, there’s virtually no situations when people have to take risks.
But I agree, they just don’t seem to understand that pvp and significant loss is required for a market to function. But I’m convinced they will understand eventually, because until they do, the market will fail. They’ll have to try it eventually.
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9 minutes ago, Xennial said:
You guys seem so hopeful. Lets be real here given recent events. Asteroids will end up either some stupid GM event spawn in nonsense , or they will exist in the safe zone because we can't ever have a game that is 'hard'. I expect the same level of cringe when automated mining and TW comes. It will be infinite resources for everyone! Even in the safe zone! It honestly wouldn't surprise me if TW included a voluntary "pvp flag" at this point.
I especially like that they have had bots deleting all this ore all this time. Wait they can skip all that dev time on asteroids and automated mining !!! They can just have their favorite pets the BOTS sell ore to us on the market forever right now! Thats sure to get the player driven market going!
I share your concerns, however no matter how carebearish NQ are, they have to eventually realise that a market doesn’t work without pvp.
They could’ve got it to work with npcs to fight, but that’s not going to happen, so they have little choice but to allow pvp.... I just hope it doesn’t take to long to understand this basic concept.
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2 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:
There should be some T1 or maybe even T2 asteroids in the safe zone to practice asteroid mining. But large amounts and higher tier ores should be limited to PvP zone.
This.
They should also reduce the amount of t3/4/5 ore on the outer planets and only have it in substantial quantities in the pvp zone.
There has to be risk and reward for obtaining high end ore. The risk means losses will occur which is vital for markets to function, and will give reason for PVP to happen.Whilst NQ are at it they should change the mechanics of warping, so that instead of dropping out in the safe zone, players should drop out in pvp space 2 SU from the planet (maybe at one of several drop out points). Warping should be the quick travel route which carries risk, whereas slow boating (at odd angles) should be the v low risk approach that takes time. Again adding reason for PvP to occur.
Warp removing any risk from pvp needs to end.
in General Discussions
Posted
I never said alioth should be stripped of pvp protection. The inner three planets should always have pvp protection. That’s where people can live if they don’t like pvp.
It’s the outer planets that should have pvp protection greatly reduced. If people don’t want to pvp, then don’t go to the outer planets. The risk reward should then be increased by increasing the amount of higher tier ores that’s needed to make stuff. If people don’t want to risk the pvp zone then they can just buy it off the market.