Understanding PVP - basic questions

[Pleione]

Tried a version of this on the PVP subforum and only received one response (although appreciated, it would be nice if it was peer reviewed).  So:

 

Trying to understand the mechanics of PVP as I look to build a M-Core asteroid mining ship with defensive weaponry.  Yes, I know I'll need someone to man the radar.  Yes, I know I shouldn't fly a ship into PVP space I'm not willing to lose.  Yes, I know the best defense is to never put myself in harms way.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  Please help me focus on understanding the mechanics per the questions below.  Note that my current understanding is based upon the charts I've found on the wiki, so if those are incomplete, or wrong, please just say so.  Numbers presented are base, without talents, so please feel free to point out talent impacts (preferably with updated numbers rather than a meaningless "Talents will improve on that" type statement).

 

1)  It looks like a Large Phased-Array Advanced space radar has a scan range of 400,000m (2SU) and an identification range  of 330,000m.  Presumably one needs to identify the target before one can lock on and fire?

 

2)  It looks like a Large Precision Advanced Railgun has an optimal range of 176,000m - by far the longest range of any L weapons (L Precision Advanced Cannon comes in at 44,000m).  How much will skills improve upon that?  

 

3)  I'm under the impression most Pirates use S Precision Cannons, or something similar, with a range of lets say 12,000.  

3a)  If they are doing a flyby attack at 50,000m/s, I'm only going to have 8 seconds, but they would only have 1/2 a second to fire at me.

3b)  Do most Pirates slow down to, say, sub-5,000m/s when attacking in order to lengthen their attack times?

 

4)  Given the above, how many shots would I likely be able to issue before the Pirate closed to within his gun range?

 

5)  What is the likelyhood of a hit, or at least them knowing they are being fire at?

 

6)  I'm presuming Pirates will fall into a couple of classes:  A)  Solo who back off if their target is not easy picking  B ) Solo who relish the challenge  C)  Gangs that will kill me no matter what ship I'm in?

 

7)  I'm aware that tracking speed on large weapons sucks against small fast targets.  Does that hold true at range or only up close (say < 20,000m)?

 

8)  Should my ship have both, say, a L railgun in hopes of getting luck at range, and as many S cannons as it can fit for defensive fire in close?

 

9) What did I forget to ask? <smile>

 

Sorry for all the attitude at the beginning of the post, but really want to stay on topic of how to outfit such a ship.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Kezzle]

7 hours ago, Pleione said:

1)  It looks like a Large Phased-Array Advanced space radar has a scan range of 400,000m (2SU) and an identification range  of 330,000m.  Presumably one needs to identify the target before one can lock on a fire?

 

Bolded bit is the only one I know the answer to without doing research  Yes, you have to "identify" a target before you can open fire on it. Conceptually, you might think of "Identification" as what other games might call a "lock".

 

7 hours ago, Pleione said:

2)  It looks like a Large Precision Advanced Railgun has an optimal range of 176,000m - by far the longest range of any L weapons (L Precision Advanced Cannon comes in at 44,000m).  How much will skills improve upon that?  

 

Can't answer that specifically, just offering the reminder that there are both placement and gunner/ammo skills which affect those numbers, so check 'em both in the Talent trees (and find a good fitter as well as a good gunner  ).

 

Other than that, I'm looking forward to the answers to your questions (from someone else!).

[Novean-61657]

I'm not a PVPer, but looked into it to avoid certain stuff...

I would not depend on the wiki, use the info in game. Best bet that IS accurate. I use the nano backpack and look at the details.

That Large Phased-Array Advanced space radar is listed with a "Core Unit XS/S/M/L Lock Distance" of 330,000m in the game.

 

There is a talent to increase indentifciation range +10%/lvl (+50% max) handling skill (thus when the radar is deployed). Which is weird, because that means you could lock on beyond the max scan range...

There are Ammo Range talents +2%/lvl (+10% max)

There's a Railgun talent for range +5%/lvl (+25% max)

There's a Railgun handling talent for range +5%/lvl (+25% max) (thus when the gun is deployed)

 

So 1.1x1.25x1.25=1.71875 => An additional 71.875% So 176,000 becomes 302,500. But that is optimal range, it also has a falloff range. Don't know for sure, but I would assume that would be way beyond what you can Scan... Which is also weird!

 

Rate of Fire on that big gun is 17s, even with talents, if you only have 8s, that is only one shot at best. If that even hits depends if you can track it and that depends on the angle of the attack. They might also come from a direction your gun can't hit...

 

I have no idea how the tracking mechanic in DU works, but I would suspect that a large weapon against a small target would get worse tracking at close range, unless it's flying directly at you in a straight line... But many DU mechanics work quite differently from what you expect.... So let the experts wow us! 😉

 

But even if you hit with one lucky shot, would that be enough? What if there are multiple PVPers? How long would you last? I think that there's a good reason why pirates use small fast ships...

Edited December 16, 2022 by Cergorach

[Pleione]

6 hours ago, Kezzle said:

Bolded bit is the only one I know the answer to without doing research  Yes, you have to "identify" a target before you can open fire on it. Conceptually, you might think of "Identification" as what other games might call a "lock".

 

Thanks.  That is what made intuitive sense - but this is DU - one needs to reality check intuition <smile>

[Pleione]

1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

But even if you hit with one lucky shot, would that be enough? What if there are multiple PVPers? How long would you last? I think that there's a good reason why pirates use small fast ships...

 

Thanks for running the numbers, that helps.  Your question was the point of 6).  Not going to be able to make a craft maned by 2-3 people that can handle every situation.   Unfortunately.  But if it survives even once, thats a win.

[Zeddrick]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

Tried a version of this on the PVP subforum and only received one response (although appreciated, it would be nice if it was peer reviewed).  So:

 

Trying to understand the mechanics of PVP as I look to build a M-Core asteroid mining ship with defensive weaponry.  Yes, I know I'll need someone to man the radar.  Yes, I know I shouldn't fly a ship into PVP space I'm not willing to lose.  Yes, I know the best defense is to never put myself in harms way.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  Please help me focus on understanding the mechanics per the questions below.  Note that my current understanding is based upon the charts I've found on the wiki, so if those are incomplete, or wrong, please just say so.  Numbers presented are base, without talents, so please feel free to point out talent impacts (preferably with updated numbers rather than a meaningless "Talents will improve on that" type statement).

 

1)  It looks like a Large Phased-Array Advanced space radar has a scan range of 400,000m (2SU) and an identification range  of 330,000m.  Presumably one needs to identify the target before one can lock on and fire?

 

Yes, you need to identify.  Remember the radar handling skills that make the radar better.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

2)  It looks like a Large Precision Advanced Railgun has an optimal range of 176,000m - by far the longest range of any L weapons (L Precision Advanced Cannon comes in at 44,000m).  How much will skills improve upon that?  

 

Weapon skills, handling skills, ammo skills and using long range ammo will help a lot here, as will higher tier weapons.  I'm pretty sure a good L rail setup can hit out near the 2SU radar limit?  Also remember falloff, which lets you hit beyond the optimal range but with a lower hit chance.  I have a ship with rare M rails which can do good damage at 1su for example.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

3)  I'm under the impression most Pirates use S Precision Cannons, or something similar, with a range of lets say 12,000.  

3a)  If they are doing a flyby attack at 50,000m/s, I'm only going to have 8 seconds, but they would only have 1/2 a second to fire at me.

3b)  Do most Pirates slow down to, say, sub-5,000m/s when attacking in order to lengthen their attack times?

 

I think it's a big jump to assume someone will be using something like this.  Some will, some will use different setups completely.  S cores are most common, but an S rail setup can shoot you at over 0.5SU.  A lot of 'pirates' are actually hoping for other pirates to fight so might be set up to beat the S cannon setups.

 

People will typically try to get within their optimal, match your speed and stay there rather than doing a flyby so what matters most is the acceleration and top speed of the ships.  If they have cannons and you have rails and they are a lot faster than you they will come in close and kill you quickly.  So you want to be fast to keep your distance so you can extend the time where you are hitting them but they aren't hitting you.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

4)  Given the above, how many shots would I likely be able to issue before the Pirate closed to within his gun range?

 

Probably not enough to kill someone without having to move.  You might get lucky and someone has an S shield or something.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

5)  What is the likelyhood of a hit, or at least them knowing they are being fire at?

 

They will know you're shooting back.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

6)  I'm presuming Pirates will fall into a couple of classes:  A)  Solo who back off if their target is not easy picking  B ) Solo who relish the challenge  C)  Gangs that will kill me no matter what ship I'm in?

 

Not sure there are so many of A.  At least if you think people will attack you then run just because you fired a gun then that's probably naive.  You'll have to make it look like you can win the fight in order to scare someone off and even then they might try to sit outside your gun range and wait for their friends.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

7)  I'm aware that tracking speed on large weapons sucks against small fast targets.  Does that hold true at range or only up close (say < 20,000m)?

 

IMO L weapons aren't a very good idea unless you know what you're doing.  You will be in an L core (because you need an L core for L guns).  You will be a big shiny target that isn't all that fast.  The attacker will probably know they can try to kill you then disengage if you're winning so you're low risk to attack.  They will have a go and call in friends to hunt you if they can't kill you alone.  You will probably also be bigger and slower than the people you shoot at, giving them something of an advantage when it comes to following you.  Generally you want to decide what your goal/plan is and design the ship around it.  If the goal is to evade then make the ship small and light with high acceleration and a good top speed.  If you want an L weapon ship the goal is probably to beat or chase off attackers, which is quite hard to do IMO.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

😎 Should my ship have both, say, a L railgun in hopes of getting luck at range, and as many S cannons as it can fit for defensive fire in close?

 

The more things you add the heavier you get, meaning you accelerate more slowly and have a lower top speed so build the ship accordingly.  Top speed and acceleration are often more important than tank and DPS.

 

On 12/15/2022 at 2:52 AM, Pleione said:

 

 

[Pleione]

Thanks - I appreciate the feedback with the detail you provided.