The only thing that can save the game now is PvE

[Dupont]

PvP:  desert,  PvE: Meat and Potatoes

 

"How can you have any pudding if you didn't eat your meat?"
- Pink Floyd

 

Seriously though, the game needs cooperative battles on a regular basis - PvE against swarms of NPC invaders is the only thing that will keep people engaged and get the economy back up with this new hardcore industry concept.

[LarryThorne]

This. I wonder why there is nothing at planets to worry.. only colliding. 

 

[Dupont]

To clarify my earlier post:

PvP is inherently a zero-sum game or less.  It is a net loss due to fuel consumption and repairs, even if you win the battles some of the time.

PvE on the other hand can be a net gain because enemy space bots won't get burned out on losing big or rage quitting.  PvP is best used to control who gets the best hunting grounds for PvE, and defending lucrative turf. As it stands, there is nothing worth defending in the game as almost everything is available elsewhere. Because mines are single use and don't refresh, even the best meganode has a limited lifespan and the costs of defending it or attacking it could reduce its value quite a bit.

 

I don't think that bragging rights of winning a PvP battle is a sustainable reason to spend the huge gobs of time and money that it takes to win it on a large scale.

 

In EVE online, there was lots of PvP, but there was also PvE to practice on, hone your skills, and walk away with more cash than you came in with. At the moment, there is no point to DU outside of crafting pretty stuff.  Even when the PvP gets revamped with new mechanics,  it may still be missing the most important ingredient - a purpose.  Control of generic territory is not a purpose.

 

Since renewable mining nodes are not available, then control over great (and renewable) hunting spots is something worth engaging group vs. group PvP.  Individual PvP for stealing other people's cargo just isn't sustainable. Because mining nodes wear out, everyone is basically nomadic at the moment. Renewables make a specific geographic location valuable and worth defending.

 

Only when humans stopped being nomadic did civilization truly begin.

 

I'm mining and staying active with the hope that someday there will be more adrenalin-inducing content, comradery in battle,  and a purpose to this grind. 

 

[Dupont]

Another important factor related to this is the lack of economic growth. PvP is the icing on the cake, but cannot be the sole core of the economy for the following reason:

 

The difference between a PUSH economy and a PULL economy.

 

In a PUSH economy:   When overall wealth comes from the lowest/first activity of the value chain, anything that follows it  along the creation chain is a luxury (meaning not a necessity)

                                        Thus, demand for complex goods happens only where there is excess capital and can be afforded.

 

In a PULL economy: The last link in the production chain is vital to the survival and profit of the main activities. In this case, there is a much larger demand pool because the entire                                                         production chain is needed to create the income and vital to providing the defense of income-creation equipment.

 

 

This is why making money from PvE rewards is much, much healthier for the economy than mining.  When overall demand is low as in the PUSH economy, all prices will eventually drop to the level of barely above the cost of input raw materials. This is due to an overabundance of supply competition.

 

The price premiums injected by the high cost of schematics will eventually fade away as it is only a fixed cost, and once people have recovered their initial investment, then excessive supply competition will force it down. The only long term fix is to increase demand.

 

 

[NQ-Naunet]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:40 PM, Dupont said:

PvP:  desert,  PvE: Meat and Potatoes

 

"How can you have any pudding if you didn't eat your meat?"
- Pink Floyd

 

Seriously though, the game needs cooperative battles on a regular basis - PvE against swarms of NPC invaders is the only thing that will keep people engaged and get the economy back up with this new hardcore industry concept.

"YOU!!!! YES YOU! YOU BEHIND THE BENCHES. STAAAAAND STILL, LADDIE."

I love Pink Floyd so much.

[Dupont]

Another thing to consider is exactly what is PvE.  (Player vs. Environment)

 

For DU,  having a pre-scripted safe environment to grind AI goes against the grain of the spirit of the game. The kind of PvE that I am talking about is simply PvP against AI bots. I mean real AI, not a simpleton version that spawns different flavors of enemies in pre-set locations.

 

No, not a simple grind.

 

A worthwhile implementation of PvE would be to create the seeds of a nest of enemies (perhaps garbage scavenging bots gone wild) in various parts of asteroids that have the best minerals.

 

1. Once the seed is created in a semi-random location, push out a handful of the enemy into the surrounding area.

2. Continue to pump out new enemies at a slow but steady rate, creating a defense of the nest.

3. When the number gets to be a certain size, part of the swarm goes on offensive patrols to the clear the surrounding areas of humans.

4. If the nest is ignored then it will keep growing into a true menace and start invading other parts of the solar system.

 

5. Note that the AI should implement tactics. Tactics are important because it will require human people to work together and actually think to defeat them.

6. The AI enemy also does mining, thus creating another vector of strategic attack - disrupt their supply lines.

7. Nests grow slowly, perhaps several weeks to get to a serious size

8. Enemy AI bots should have different types for different roles.

 

Eliminating full-grown nests will take the cooperation of many people and organizations. Once a nest is wiped out, wait a few days before starting a new one somewhere else. (can't be in same spot)

[Demlock]

As an avid PVPer of DU... I actually agree with him
pushing the 0.23 patch and launching beta faaaaar too soon pretty much put NQ in the same path of No Mans Sky where they have nothing but a struggle and an uphill battle in order to return to some sort of operational status.

 

Because of how they executed things, and the slowly dying lack of communication a LOT of people feel lied to and betrayed. Those who were on the hype train of NMS jumped off, never to return to the game again. Mainly because they don't trust the company that will lie or withhold the truth from them (which is a lie by omission).

 

The PVPers may be around but I don't know if there will be as many as JC or NQ would like for there to be. There's just very little fullfillment in DU's PVP now and especially if they push Lock-n-Fire AvA

 

You'll be seeing nearly all of BOO head straight to Starbase or StarCitizen if they take that route and don't at least TRY to put in an actual first person shooter.

 

NPCs randomly spawning may just be what DU needs to help revive it and lure people back into the game.

 

Asteroids will be a good start too but that's only going to last for so long... maybe like... 5 - 6 months with NQ driven events

[Dupont]

Predictability is the bane of traditional PvE.

 

That is the root cause of the feeling of "grind" and general disdain of lack of challenge. When you know how the enemy is going to behave, then you know the future. If you know the future, you can plan for it in ways that are not natural - it is cheating in a way. Winning by cheating is not satisfying to most people.

 

So, how to avoid predictability?    Easy - do mix and match with various stages of the battle.

 

If we split a battle into three stages, and have five different options in each stage, then we have 5*5*5 = 125 different tactical battle plans.

 

- Vary location and ship types

- Vary roles   [tanks to take damage, short range, long range, healers (repair crews), shield reinforcers (buffs), stealth, recon, supply line attackers]

- Vary tactical plans (as below)

 

For example:

 

Initial Contact Stage:

A1.  Few scouts, followed by larger patrols, followed by larger force

A2. Trap: one scout that acts as bait which retreats a much larger force hidden in the asteroids

A3. Pincer with two medium size groups from opposite directions

A4. Mines to take out navies of lots of small ships

A5. Electronic warfare that sends out false signals

 

Main Battle Stage:

B1. Long range out front, which retreats behind tanks

B2. Short range fighters that blitz the attackers/defenders

B3. Calvary attacks that try to split a large group into smaller groups

B4. Siege weapons - throw/accelerate asteroids as kinetic weapons at capital ships

B5. Interlaced shields supported my many ships as a force wall . Weak if attacked from the side or back.

 

End Stage:

C1. Suicide collisions runs

C2. Self destruct detonations on static constructs

C3. Distractions to lead the attacking force somewhere else

C4. Hide inside asteroids in stealth mode to restart the nest

C5. Board / Virus attacks to take over ship computers and turn them against their friends

 

... I'm sure folks can come up with more options in each. There can be hundreds of different combinations of battle plans for the AI bots.

 

The big benefit of this kind of PvE is that it is always available - you don't have to wait for the weekend to organize two groups to stage a battle.