Toecutter
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Posts posted by Toecutter
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On 14/07/2017 at 2:44 AM, Lord_Void said:
Oh my ... the assumptions ....
First off, there are almost 8,000 star systems in EVE, so that 30,000 rapidly turns into 3-4 people per system, often less. Compare that to DU where everyone will be in the same system for a while after launch. Even after a year or two, the DU game world will probably only have a dozen or so systems connected due to the expense and difficulty of building gates, so even 1600 ships would be 133ish ships per system assuming 12 systems.
Why is that a problem? If everyone wants to be a pilot then they could all fly single person ships and all be the pilots. Not every ship needs to be a six person cruiser, in fact having a variety of ship sizes in a fleet will probably be the norm.
Remember that there is a lot more to do in the game rather than fly around looking for fights, so if being on a ship isn't your thing there is lots of other stuff to do. That being said, I don't know where you keep getting the "sitting around for four hours waiting to push a button" thing ... see my previous posts for why that isn't relevant.
I think Pang_Dread summed it up well.
And this is how we pretend to refute an argument while ignoring every point made
>Maths is an assumption
opinion discarded
On 14/07/2017 at 1:41 AM, Pang_Dread said:LOTS of assumptions based on little to no information we have. In a sandbox game people create their own content and go to where others have created content. You keep using the "4 hours flying doing nothing" what? How does that even make sense. If you're looking for content for gameplay you're going to go where the action is not fly around at random doing nothing. Sandbox games are about creating content and meeting up to participate in that content. If you're just flying around for hours not finding anything, then yeah sorry you're not doing it right.
There will be all kinds of ships of different sizes and capabilities as there are different types of players and playstyles. Having played many MMOs over the years I can say with 100% accuracy that your "low percentage wants to play support secondary roles" is bs. or rather it wont be so low as you think it will be. I highly doubt support and crew roles will come down to "waiting 4 hours to click a button". Have only known about NQ for a short time but they don't at all appear to be as stupid as to think that is fun gameplay either, perhaps give then more credit and benefit of the doubt until at least we get more info on all how these systems will work.
Maths are not assumptions, neither is history nor judging the market demographic of a game versus its acknowledged competitors, good luck running a business if you dont judge your playerbase as compared to your competition
On 14/07/2017 at 9:08 AM, DarkHorizon said:I don't get where some people think that not everyone likes playing a support role.
If there's say a huge ground battle going on. I'm not going to be at the front lines, I'm going to be back at some base directing artillery fire from an orbital gun.
Exactly: Directing
You arent going to be carting ammo around, you arent going to be waiting on someone to shoot you to press R, you expect to be directing, for that to happen, someone has to *Want* to cart ammo around, they have to want, to do what you say, does anyone here have any business sense at all?
I want this game to last longer than a month
On 14/07/2017 at 6:14 AM, Thokan said:Why should every single player have access to big ships? What use would a bigger warship even be for a single player or small group? Not for trading, prospecting, mining, exploring, transporting or other tasks/playstyles I would think individuals would dabble with.
As I see it, bigger ships are the mark of big organizations. Depending on how easy or hard they are crewed, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see the big ships but in Org vs Org battles/sieges/skirmishes - if not for the roaming hardcore 24/7 Pirate crews in their ganking barges
The assumption of standing fleets is also something I wouldn't really get behind before launch, by the way.
Because small organizations need to exist, rather than say, 3-4 big ones because no one can organize 100 people to fly ten ships
GAH this is making me mad, you guys have literally no idea how business works, if NQ releases crews like you guys seem to want, the game will be dead within the year, no new players will come to it, it will die, this isnt an assumption, this is fact, anyone with any experience in marketing will know that marketing yourself to an incredibly niche market, for example people willing to spend all day every day trying to work with people just to do one thing, while dismembering your ability to market towards the average consumer, especially when said consumer wants your product and especially when you need these people around for content in the first place is a terrible idea, its corporate suicide
And for anyone who doubts this, just look at the competition, in EvE there's mining, no one does it but a few exceptionally dedicated people who spend all day doing it, lets like at RR, the support role, that almost no one wants to play because it means not being able to shoot at things, everyone wants to be able to shoot at things, and when your game revolves around 90% of people not being able to shoot at things, why would anyone at all want to be that 90%, wheres the motivation, this is a really really stupid idea
and if crews are necessary, people will quit, that 10,000 becomes a smaller number, because its too intimidating for newbies to even consider joining in on, it will fail in a matter of months not years and god damn I dont want that, this could be amazing, I've been looking forward to this game since its inception, complicated and in depth is a good thing, but inaccessible is never a good thing, no matter what the game is
90% of the game wont be guys flying remote reps or mining, they'll be people wanting to fight, a lot of people will want to explore or do other things that arent combat related as well, but they'll want to be the ones doing that, not helping someone else do that, from what I've seen so far, the forums here make up a vocal minority of the people who in EvE would be the roleplay crowd, and this can be a great game for that, but in order to do that, the game has to actually have people playing it -
Just now, Lethys said:
That's the problem there with crews - Timezones, availability and interest of players in commiting to a crew - which is what I always said (I know from eve that you can calculate with only 10% of all people online at any given moment when there is no op running). So it IS a problem if you think that players HAVE TO fly big ships with multicrew.
But let's face it: if nothing happens at all for 4h, it doesn't really matter if you're cruising in your single seater alongside your fleet or running around with many others within some battleship. Especially since we don't know what else you can do while on that ship (market orders, industry, creating constructs, ....).
And IF a fight breaks lose, I'm sure there's more to do than just pressing a button. You'd possibly have to find and repair armor blocks, repair cables/engines/turrets, bring ammo to turrets, fight off a boarding party,...
I don't think that large ships are feasible at all in the beginning and since we don't know if they implement any minor automation for guns for example (with a drawback ofc) it's only guessing and drama on the forum until NQ explicitly states what they plan.
I'm against NPCs though (although i could live with them if they are much weaker than a player run ship) and I'm definitely against player created NPCs (stats-wise)
I just mean player created NPC's with backstories, interactions and voices etc, stats could be from say a preset list or somesuch, but thats getting off topic
we also know from EvE that if people are at least partially engaged, they'll be willing to spend those 4 hours looking for content, and much longer if they have an attention span (W-space stories man) and like I said, marines are more than feasible because lots of people want to shoot randoms, in fact having that as an option will likely bring more players to the table, but really, just repairing armor blocks? carting ammo around? its just not feasible in my honest opinion, these aren't fun things to do, everyone is going to want to be the pilot or the marine, its always a very low percentage of people that want to support someone else, its just not going to happen
And while people could fly small ships, are they really going to want to, when all the cool kids have their amazing custom battleships with people who never sleep, and all they can use is some 1 seater fighter that looks like an x-wing
the whole idea of crews in an MMO just stands on shaky ground imo -
I personally think it would be much better for NQ to get rid of their "No NPCs" choice and add NPCs as in game hire-able characters, that add particular bonuses to the ship, and can be interacted with using an inbuilt system or by walking around your ship, that way it will be in depth and accessible at the same time, and adds some potential for character development that mass effect shows us everyone loves
Hell, they could even add player created NPC's for it, and suddenly the universe is a lot more rich and engaging -
On 12/07/2017 at 5:07 AM, yamamushi said:
Sorry if it's not the kind of game you're looking for, but the multi-crew ship mechanics are a big part of why many of us backed the game.
I don't think anyone who pledged is sitting around here hoping that ships don't need crews.
Can you imagine, 4-5 hours roaming through space, doing almost nothing, SUDDENLY PIRATES, now you have the amazing task of pressing some buttons to repair an engine
and now you're expecting the vast majority of the player-base to enjoy doing this
While *you* might not mind that, the vast majority of people who play video games have a shorter attention span than this, and while you might have pledged hoping for crews, lets consider that there are less than 10,000 pledges at the moment, and lets assume they're all like you and they want crews to be a thing, and that the (low) estimate of 6 people can fly a ship, that means, assuming all of these people were online at the same time, in this single shard universe, a grand total of 1600 ships could be active at one time, and while that may seem like a lot, I'm sure there are people here who play EvE and know how dead the game can feel with even 30,000 people online
then there's the fact that most of these people are going to be offline at any one time, lets go with one quarter being active at once, even though people don't always play during their timezone, and people have lives, that's 400 moderately large ships online at once, and this isn't even taking into consideration gigantic monstrosities people can build, this is just what I perceive as the average ship
now lets consider that these ships cant function properly missing even one crew member, so most of those are going to be inactive, and lets realize that the average person isn't going to play a game to sit around for 4 hours to click a button (this is why people mock miners in EvE) and this game wont even get past launch day, and I'm sure you'll say "We dont need idiots to play this game" and true, regardless of them or not, I'll still play Dual Universe, but to make the game utterly devoid of content like that, since NPCs wont be in the game, and just how fun do you think it will be
This game has massive potential, I want it to be awesome because I absolutely love the premise, but from a business standpoint, if they make crews something a ship must have to be competetive, then no one will play Dual Universe but hardcore, avid fans
And just imagine trying to direct PvP like that, not only do you have to control a fleet of say, 10 ships, but then you also have to deal with your own ships, and so does everyone else, it would be an absolute cluster of a cluck and no fun for anyone other than the people who do nothing but play the game, which is nice, but just because you want the game to be indepth and difficult, doesnt mean you should make it absolutely inaccessible to newcomers -
On 08/07/2017 at 7:39 AM, Lord_Void said:
Yes, sitting around waiting to press a button all day would be very boring, but I doubt there will be many or any instances like that. You are assuming that everyone is assigned a position and must stay there all the time. Not so. If the ship is not under attack you could be manning the sensor arrays or working on something in the hangar. If you are in warp you don't need people manning the guns but you do need people making sure the reactor doesn't overheat. In this way people will not be stuck waiting around for their position to be needed; rather, they will be rotating around to where the "action" is. Secondly, you are assuming that all the activities are going to simple. "Press R to repair ship". Nope. If you are trying to repair the ship you need to find what's broken (either with some sort of diagnostic or by manually checking), then once you find what's broken you need to fix it. Maybe you need to replace it with a spare part. It becomes a sort of minigame rather than a single button press.
On 08/07/2017 at 7:15 AM, yamamushi said:Except that there are multiple instances where they've been quoted as saying that large ships will need specialized crews, one of which is the Dev Blog on the topic: https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/01/30/multiplayer-ship-crew/
Of course, the goal isn't to just have people sitting around pressing the same button over and over, and the difficulty of solving the problem was addressed in the Q&A:
And to answer your last point, not everyone wants to be a pilot or a captain. I'd be more content sitting in an engine room than in the captain's seat telling everyone what to do with everyone's lives in in my care.
If you want to fly a giant ship around by yourself, more power to you, but you're probably going to end up having a really bad time when other people show up to ruin your day.
It's literally corporate suicide if they do this
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What im going to say is going to sound harsh but honestly
If you go this far in depth, no one is going to play the game
Everyone loves flying big ships, but if it requires momentous teamwork, and 90% of the people involved are just checking the engines or shields, no one will play the game because they'll all be too bored, this might be good for an immersion point of view in say, a single player game, but you're all imagining being the pilots
imagine spending all day, waiting to press the button R because the engine needs to be repaired, it might sound fun, but it would be the single most dull experience I can imagine, so big ships may have crews (specifically marines) but I highly, highly doubt they will need them, because if they do the game will never get off the ground
this isn't like EvE, where you spend the day waiting for something to happen, even mining has the potential for fun things to happen there, this is sitting at an engine console, waiting to press a button, and doing literally nothing else -
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It's not a coincidence leader rhymes with liquor.
It's like a magical golden liquid that inspires true genious, like forgetting you have a capfleet, or that you're in a HG slaves pod
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I learned FCing in eve while being drunk, fun times.
Great concept, looking forward to hear more from you
cheers mate
send me a mail or something if you're interesteddrunk fc is the correct way to fc
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The real way to play a game. Get pissed, yell "Leeroy Jenkins", and somehow beat everyone else.
Precisely
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Straya, knut~
You missed us
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The Cydonian Empire is looking for people who can take a joke in places other than their rectum~
can you:
Lock a target and hit F1?
Drink your own bodyweight?
Jump when the fc says don't jump?
If so, you're just what we're looking for~
lets drink our way to the top and wonder how we got there
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GloriousCydonia/
And don't worry, I don't sound so plastic in actual conversations send me a message or a mail to learn more about our plans
on the other hand, if you're from tumblr and everything makes you upset, I'm afraid this is not your safe space, find another place to complain about your victimhood
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hmm, I think this is a good idea, but rather, have weapons give off a signature that your scanners can pick up, the larger the weapon, the more potent the signature, this gives all kinds of options for trickery, such as phony sig generators, "silenced" weapons that produce no or lower signature, and the opposite for scaring the locals
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Skill trees have been used successfully in many games for a reason: They make sense and are effective. Plus, they mirror how we learn in real life.
@Toecutter, I wouldn't want to have everything available at the beginning. It doesn't make logical sense, although I can see an arguement for it all being downloaded into our heads by out computer caretaker.
well I mean, you can go to the store and buy a guitar, strum on it and make sounds without any training, but you actually need to learn the chords to find it useful, is my point
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I steal a ship and keep adding things to it until it is 8 times the original size
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Why not have everything usable from the start, but with the ability to increase its effectiveness by a fairly large amount with training, rather than saying that something cant be done, it could be done but badly, preventing new players from seeing the time between now and what they want to do and giving up
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Implants. People can make them illegal because RP reasons
Also, you missed the memo on there will be no NPCs in the world aside from some starting NPCs to provide an optional tutorial.
A part of the reason they can achieve a 10,000+++ players at the same point at the same time, is that they won't have to hog server space with NPCs This is not star citizen, where NPCs are needed because of the crappy CryEngine netcode. DUAL is all about having players doing everything That includes, having player crew
Good luck with the whole "honor among thieves" thing
(unless your crew are IRL friends, then it's cool).there is also information stating there will be npcs for animals etc, so like I said, conflicting information, players should do everything I agree, but player crew seems like an incredible hassle from a gameplay perspective, so really it's fairly confusing
maybe they want people to create and code their own npcs for the game using an in game mechanic, but I'm generally uncertain what the deal is in that area
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well drugs could provide buffs like in EvE online, but could be banned in certain areas, and forcing a player into slavery seems a bit much, because it would really suck for that guy, but npcs from other ships (I'm unsure as to how npcs will work in DU since there are multiple conflicting things I've read) might be captured, indoctrinated and used to crew your ships, it would be cheaper, but again likely illegal in most places, so trading in slaves would likely be difficult, but lucrative, thats my general idea of it
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So I was thinking, wouldnt it be cool if we could make a space mexico, with a massive drug industry etc
or better yet, live out your fantasies as an interstellar slave trader, roaming the galaxy looking for ships and planets to pillage
so what do you think, should we have space naer-do-wells with unique risks and rewards, and if so, how do you think it should play out, mechanics wise -
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humm, I was kinda looking forward to npc's of some kind, oh well, maybe in the far flung future
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bars could be a place missions of a certain kind pop up in, assuming missions are a thing in DU, and minigames, if we want to take it further, I'm imagining like in red dead redemption, little gambling minigames etc that provide monetary rewards, or maybe other things, and generally increase immersion
also having the ability to designate an area as a bar in the editor should cause those varieties of npc to congregate, though I'm getting ahead of myself here
its a really good idea mate -
So a couple of questions, I personally am a big fan of spinal guns, basically the turretless assault guns of spaceships, big clumsy weapons systems mounted without a turret which the ship is more or less built around, will these exist in dual universe?
and will I be able to take models I have created elsewhere and voxelfy them, allowing them to be used in the game, or will I have to remake my creations inside the game?
can't wait until release by the way, don't think I've ever been this excited for a game before, the hype is real
oh, one more thing, can I make railways for planetary defense? long story short I had the idea of using armoured trains armed with anti-siege weaponry as a planetary defense mechanism >~>
Ships and the crew required
in Builder Forum
Posted
Sounds well balanced and very inviting
Welp, there goes my hope in this