MookMcMook

Yuk-yuk... "If they build it, they will come."

I did not notice any "atmosphere" in the other planets in the above type of videos. The only visible effect of atmosphere I've seen is:- Alioth:- 1. In the flight seamless from "moon" to Alioth there's some "atmospheric entry" effects. 2. There's clearly swirling cloud effects* at various angles on the "3 letter acronym for graphics at distance thingy" arrgh "draw distance thing!" Did you see something else? There's chemical suits in the twitter additionally... * JC mentions in one vid that because they simulate things, then those weather effects are not just pictures but would be actual climate/weather across an entire planet (!) so a challenge to consider and add (but exciting too).

Agree, can't add more than this. For example a very large org that "finds" an entire solar system: It will work to ensure it keeps not only "first dibs" but "all dibs" after constructing a Star Gate. That said, the power of encouraging a colonizing players who LOVE building may throw another layer of complexity to that initial simple picture.

This are all good questioning, given we do not know for sure but can try to form general impressions. It should boil down to being out-gunned. 3 solo-crew ships might be restricted in how many weapons they can fire, how effective their shields are, how large they can be without more crew and so on. So against a larger crew ship with say 20 guns (and much bigger guns and different types) the battle will be short. That's my guess: Significant advantage for crew ships. I see this as a consequence of: Voxel building Activity being a collaboration activity to build useful constructs then running these things and using them continuing to be a collaboration activity: Humanity pulling together to achieve great things in space, seems the tag line NQ are aiming for with DU? The most important thing is the Social Interaction between players. So building and using are continuing that it seems is the ethos? @Zamarus provides a realistic perspective I think. These big ships are like the big wandering sharks or orcas... most of the action will involve smaller fish against other small fish. Even avatar pew-pew planetside: Troop carrier ships etc. As above, "grunts are cheap(est)!"

I think solo fighters will be more fun the for the individual - yes. But I think when large orgs are gunning for power then the solution is large crews for larger ships. It means there's a bottleneck or vulnerability: Those orgs have to be organized with larger ships and members working together to keep their dominance. Bear in mind then it won't be the only combat, but the more powerful: Imagine lots of little ships and a huge ship with 50 different large guns or other weapons firing on these little ships. Even if the individual action is not as fun, then collectively I feel it will be immensely satisfying being the larger fish eating the little fish. And the reward for good teamwork. That's just my vision not how it will happen or how that will be better. Also, as a crew member I quite enjoy chilling out. I can do some lua scripting in downtime and be working and playing atst. Some like making houses but I can do that already on this Earth, being a crew in a large ship is something for games and imagination for me. I mean looking at the vids of DU with the full planets and the scale of everything, that will be fun just gawping at and presumably being remunerated by someone for such important duties in quanta! Soldiering: "It's a good life for some." ~ real quote from my own life. People can still have fun pew-pewing Han SOLO style all the same and in large fleets hunting prospectors. Large teams take a lot of social maintenance afterall.

As above I see Food, O2 etc merely as commodities to insert into the DU Economic system, thus providing new "industries" for players such as Agriculture and Air production or some such (!). Also such a system might increase the value of BIOME planets where those are simply kept simple and abstracted as a component in powering/energy provision of ships, spacestations, planet bases adding an extra power/energy component/cost... though that obviously has ripple implications that may become too substantial. I think the granular stuff might become feature bloat too quickly for too little wider gameplay space increase. Not discounting just think it needs adapting to scale as another resource type on the markets that some planets produce and others do not produce. Eg Forests could be encouraged to grow for O2 harvesting?

I don't think Alioth star system is binary: In one of the dev interviews with JC, in god-mode they fly to the sun (it's not scaled corrected for game and other reasons) to demonstrate it's also a 3D object light-source thus leading to actual sunrise/set effects depending on angle of planet and sun with each other. Who knows maybe we'll see a binary star system in another system? But then maybe the orbit effects might be a bit "heavy" to simulate? edit: Here you go: at 10m40s :-

Lol, it's an old joke, I remember Notch making it about Minecraft add an "i" before the "s" (being polite). One of those internet laws of games or something. Emptiness is valid: A lot of MMOs design the world to ensure it does not feel empty! It fits space especially when the planets are truly 3D and so large too and modifiable (oh my!) so maybe less of a problem and in fact will reduce pressure and pvp initially probably (a good thing). Also it's a problem if the playing population is too small and never takes off. Whereas I guess building will be very enticing...

I've tried to record a few major criticism of DU:- 1. Sub 2. PvP 3. Empty 4. Crews 5. Voxel "flying pens" (!) There's been enough discussion on 1 and 2 so no need to cover them again. On 3 not much so far. I think actually the gameplay on offer will entice a larger number of people along with the prospect of constant improvements from the current already decent state (for pre-alpha) to the server performance. Also the seamless world-space transitions and SCALE, it think will make higher immersion, like the cinema big screen feeling. So I'm comfortable on that (add in the minecraft fever of "just one more brick")... Onto Crews, yes constructive criticms: What is "fun"? Single person sitting in a chair every 5sec pressing a red button. THAT is not fun. So how do we have large crews and the crews have fun? 1. Results If the larger ships can transport more stuff or are superior in pvp, then they will be rewarding. 2. Connectivity If the larger ships require interesting team work and communication ; are part of a larger organization coordinating 3. Interactivity If the larger ships have multiple systems and different players coordinate those to out-gun and out-move and out-defend other ships, I think it will be very rewarding being technologically superior and kicking ass in PvP. I listed a lot of potential roles a ship might have with a larger size above... I did some siege gameplay in other mmorpgs, that was ALWAYS FUN! Just not as dynamic as a large ship with lots of crew attacking other such I imagine at the moment! 4. Frequency Plenty of down-time to fly solo ships and mess around or rotate crews. Also large ships, what other things can they do. What other things can players do on large ships? On botting. I do not know. All mmos have botting issues. That's a lot of a/cs to try to fill up with bots... gluck. The question of fun is important but I cannot make head or tail of the above communication attempt: It's not constructing an argument as opposed to saying "I already know it's not fun". I think as a means to scale up PvP with more impressive ships and player numbers it is innovative. I do agree the question of fun remains unknown I would not agree that it is known yet. Is it for everyone? No. But for some it could be brilliant fun.

I think the devs (rightly) have taken the approach that:- 1. They build a solar system of voxels 2. Any of the actual planetary bodies are effectively interchangeable land for players to build their territories over (for game play reasons) 3. The only major difference in these bodies of voxels is the resource types, their sizes and distances from each: It's all very physical for all the subsequent physics: Volume, Mass, Spaceship Thrust, Transportation Time and Capacity which then feeds into: 4. Economy itself very complex as well: Prices, trades, manufacturing and so on... 5. That feeds into the politics and combat eventually. Biological factors; idk...Commodies and/or consumables? Only thing I can think of is that Biome planets look more habitable and probably feel better even if it makes no difference in actual gameplay. Alioth for example clearly is more attractive than other planets to sight-see around for eg. edit: yeah as per the alpha-game-play-ideas link above: Food may be a consumable to h(eat) your body to power your nanoformer (builder/terraformer/punch to the face) tool. So presumably in the future: Alioth might turn into a huge exporter of food consumable types?

Sure boss, I do appreciate your "wider considerations here" at "this early stage" to "set the record straight". I guess my example to replace the OP's theorycrafting with a game space with wide interactivity already set to be in the game, has not been an apt one. Hm disappointing I could not help with a constructive alternative suggestion. But - hehe, only joking ! @Jegleebow20 I know what you mean about sci-fi interest in "The Other". I do like the idea of some AI-sentient like things which seemed at least possible via our own creative work in-game. But the extra dev work would even for this as @Lethys says is too pregnant with high-level game altering implications.

I posed a "?" to elicit a response, so no need to hail me down officer! There will be no "decision trees", "behaviour trees" or "FSM" or other Game AI capacities? I remember watching a video of JC controlling a ship construct... remotely. So I thought there was capacity for some basic commands and from that what limit on other game AI is possible/not possible? So it is possible to:- 1. Animate them 2. Move them. 3. Behaviour = ?being asked here? What can drones be made to do usefully, I am wondering? Could a large drone be a sort of "Donkey/Mule" for extra transport of goods?

Well that's the thing isn't it: BIOTIC/BIOME planets resources might be "BIOLOGICAL VALUE"... So I agree @ShioriStein but I'm stumped as to know how that could be integrated without adding too much to the current design that's outside of it's scope.

If you have basic commands to script, then it does beg the question of more complex commands: Where does one finish and the other end? I'm more focusing on my own interest in spending in-game time LUA scripting than the actual consequences game-wide of drones and AI or bots which I understand may require server-restrictions.

Yes, agree with this. The main enquiry I was making is that Real Value should not be major issue: (Then just compare bank accounts and call it victory or loss), but also the logistics via distance and gates and the organization (crew of larger ships demonstrating greater oganizational ability and hence superiority reflecting this in-game performance). PvP should be "expensive" and that demand fuelling Building et al.

I love sim stuff, but for DU I'd guess most if not all of that will be abstracted out: One of the biggest reason is that people's real lives mean when they are logged in for their game session, that session's quality of fun has to ramp up to make the game successful, so too much minutae or "maintenance" stuff is just not viable as you'd attempt for a survival game. What currently bugs me a little bit atm, is that BIOTIC/BIOME planets don't seem very differentiated from "dead planets" apart from looking prettier and being different resource points. If biome planets are much less costly for avatars to be parked, then suddenly finding "livable planets" changes their value... idk on the sim side of things that feels good to me, even if it's not practical for game play design purposes: Planets = Resources = Territory = Networks of Space Links = Virtual Economy and Spaceship goodness = DU. It's a sound and simple formula to focus on for NQ.

Isn't it a "pet class" as per most mmorpgs? That's what I meant: You could script basic behaviours:- * Attack Target X * Defend ME * Guard Position Y ? That seems reasonable... also I have a LUA AI book I was thinking of using :-(((

Yeah I come to this conclusion to: It's either ECONOMIC DESIGN scale or SURVIVAL and NQ have wisely chosen Economic. DU is already probably shifted off "mainstream" towards "hardcore" though pointing in that direction as opposed to being there, Survival stuff is way too much GRANULAR DESIGN in excess of ECONOMIC DESIGN which itself is very ambitious already considering volumes that can be transported, masses of ships that interact with thrusters and of course the algorithms with which resource frequency and quality and type are created for the economy! ECONOMY is the big one that needs to scale up to make the game successful via these sub-components and the devs obviously know that as per it being on the front page as a core design Virtual Economy. There have been other so-called sandbox mmos but they're in fact survival simulation mmos Xyson being one I vaguely remember: They don't scale easily or indeed look at Life Is Feudal, great designs there, and implementation is impressive: But a lot of players find the grind and survival emphasis too much effort and input for too little reward and output stimulation - as well as that ending making PvP that must more sugary... but then combat system is under pressure to be high quality system too soon. I do like the economic idea of terraforming at large scale and adding some sort of value, but I guess that's future fancies for now.

Yes, remember we'll have Drones which we have immense power to shape via building and scripting their behaviours (in-game AI?) I believe? So ok we won't have the full paraphernalia of alien weirdness that some Sci-Fi explores, but we have to be aware of 2 things:- 1. Our design limitations (scope) and stick to that. 2. What is actually already possible and MORE than compensatory to excluded ideas WITHIN that scope. I'd say we're all in a good place with DU. Though I do find wacky and well-thought out Sci-Fi ideas energizing as much as anyone else does and enjoy reading what others have to say on such subjects. Even though the above applies, people should still feel free to voice their own ideas, albeit sticking to the above 1-2 principles if they can (helps us understand our group input better I'd argue). Perhaps the OP will be mollified with the Drones possibilities? The lua scripting, I just wonder what wizards will be at work in DU...

From the recent AMA:- So the Anchor Point Network (APN) idea is quite interesting, creating INFRASTRUCTURE in space, perhaps Douglas Adams was right, afterall, about the eventual fate of the Earth?! This is probably a lot better than my "Engines over a certain size to house FTL/Hyper-Jump Engines" idea.

Seems to me, an option (the riskiest one) "you can go for the camouflage option and hope none scan your ship successfully" (assuming you're out in deep space flying your own ship). Being small, in large area, hiding under a rock (even), engines and power off, camo-tech up... seems reasonable risk for risk-takers... [RISKIEST] Secondly, if out in deep space, maybe a large spaceship with dozens of crew, then if one crew logs out, others are still attending to the current and future fate of the ship, so no biggie? [NORMAL RISK] Of course safe bases for docking are safe to despawn or park (not sure which it actually is here??) (given it's got a bubble timer). [ZERO RISK] All this seems reasonable?

Hehe, true, a little hyperbole "terror-ific" there. But also a conversation starter as well. Then and again, with resource type and availability, maybe different planets with different resources being the network that counts most to get those resources to markets, as opposed to an entire planet being somewhat surplus to requirement? You're right, the scales are HUGE and won't necessarily make sense to try to contain or control without profit. If there is plenty of resources (due to abundance from such HUGE supply in such a HUGE solar system), and different markets used by different orgs, then conflict might end up being very low key to begin with? Perhaps things will only heat up when rarer types of resources are required thereby increasing competition and value?

You betcha ass Nanodot. This is the focus of focuses. How will it be fun for groups of players vs solo spaceships. I'm hoping Group gameplay in ships can be diverse:- * Gunner: Rail, Lazer, EMP, nuke * Scanner * Engines energy delegation and charging / steering (randomizing flight path to reduce hit chance etc). * Navigation * Marines (boarding/sabotaging): Space flight suits or that fuzzy teleportation trick (away team). * Captain / comms * Repair team * Shields, Incog/reduce detection (non-visual range) * Anti-missile devices Scale up again:- * Deploy drones: Each drone it's own console controller for eg. Range limited perhaps with some basic AI (lua coded!) if the connection is temporarily lost... (Thargoids anyone?) * Deploy smaller ship pilots: Scouts and so on... * Hyper-Jump / Star Gate * Deploy decoys And of course larger ships not only requiring proximate console use to be usable but also a lot more powerful in: Shields, Firepower and Movement power in Gs. Of course why cannot all the above be on a single console in front of the single pilot? Well, scaling up power of spaceships (combat) with player numbers is quite cool potentially pvp dynamic. If you want pvp you have to cooperate and if you cooperate and are valuable you'll be paid to do useful things... (I'm guessing) like blow the ****! out of solo griefers. How fun will it be? I think it will be pivotal to isolating planets which have dug-in opposition, then sending in the atmosphere atttack force eg smaller ships and ground constructs and soldiers (avatars) so maybe it will be very fun but not the only option for people eg several large ships to win the space battle then a single large ship only needed while the rest jump into smaller ships to take the offensive planetside etc, leaving a skeleton crew on board? Maybe a ton of offensive weapons going off in a fleet battle will pretty exciting as well as say 100 crew ship blowing up taking out more or less ~100 different players? I love the vision of a ship on one side of a planet (larger ship) firing off it's payloads at numerous ships ways away on the other side (smaller ships) who are out-ranged for example. Out tech'd. Naturally getting teams together is going to control frequency of these ships, but then if their value might just go way up on that count as well as power count. Perhaps such superior ships won't be messing around with random pvp but much more calculated in-game rational useage consequentially: Power projection and Star Gates are going to be pivotal here at the largest scale. Will that picture be as fun as a solo fighter who can do all the nav of a smaller ship, shoot and shield but be a lot weaker individually and even collectively? Of course planetside, smaller ships in and out of atmosphere that will have the size vs size match ups of swarms of such constructs han solo'ing each other? Some games with a little ship teamwork:- * Artemis Bridge Simulator (video game) * Captain Sonar (boardgame) I think players can look forward to both roles and types of ship, but when PvP starts to count in territory control in space, then teams in bigger ships are going to be out-gunning littler ships and be very valuable. It feels to me like it should be the Swiss-Army Knife Principle: IF you want more things for it to do all on one "knife" (and here atst) then you gotta go BIGGER and BETTER TECH. A little swiss-army knife only has the small blade, little scissors, tweezers and the tooth pic ! It is cheaper though. But at that size it should have weaker tech on most counts. I can imagine a large ship effectively being a spaceship carrier deploying 50+ smaller ships or something. TL;DR: /Whoa spitting out a ton of random ideas here. Scusi a todos!

That's the higher end of positive projections. Lower end: It's too empty, too hardcore etc. Probably somewhere in the middle. As for the last point, the irony of there not being enough space in DU.

Same in terms of specific forums. I just wonder how many of the LM's don't know about DU but would really dig (intentional pun) DU?