Dygz_Briarthorn

That assumes that we will have droids capable of equipping drills. If the devs wish to prevent offline automated mining, all they have to do is implement code that requires player characters' manual interaction. We will most likely need to have dev-crafted elements in order to mine. And those elements can be dev-coded with restrictions that not only prevent offline mining but also prevent players from modding Lua scripts that would override those restrictions.

Dual Universe is primarily horizontal progression, so implants wouldn't be providing astronomical increases in power. I would expect there to be a limit on how many implants the human body could hold and, that limit is reached, we would have to swap in new implants.

(The original topic was about the possibility of slavery in DU. We've covered organic slaves as well as inorganic slaves.)

It's horizontal progression rather than steep vertical progression. From the gameplay video, it appears that we will have a variety of options for control panels even in a solo ship. I expect we'll be discovering a variety of types modules to mix and match for various systems, but not quite at the mini-component level.

"Generally, there are two types of psychiatric disorders that produce psychotic symptoms: schizophrenia and mood disorders, such as bipolar disorder." The lore indicates Aphelia is schizo, bipolar and manipulative. The devs appear to be hinting that the AI in the lore already has an agenda beyond human control. Not enough info yet to know what the range of robotic options will be. Androids with AI like Aphelia probably won't be easy to enslave, though. Utility-based AI is unpredictable, but doesn't use RNG.

Romulans generate artificial quantum sigularities as fuel for their ships. Calling that processing is probably a stretch. That kind of tech wouldn't require mining for fuel. We could be harnessing solar energy for fuel/"gas" rather than mining. And/or collecting solar energy for power/"electricity". I think it's more likely that we would be able to harness solar energy while offline than have automated mining while offline. I think the devs won't want us to be rapidly depleting the resources we mine from worlds.

Builders will not Lua-script sentient AI from scratch, but we know that the lore already includes AI, like Aphelia. What we don't know is how that translates to robot or android bodies. And we don't know whether the AI in the lore have sentience and initiative. Whatever form(s) of AI we have, it's likely that players will be able to tweak it to some degree. Utility-based AI don't predict people's reactions in the manner you suggest - rather, they make decisions based on their current emotional states and desires. Storybricks and other utlity-based AI are designed with a wide range of emotion states, goals, desires and urges. In humans, hormones are the mechanism for initiating changes in emotional states and urges - puberty is the onset of increased hormonal activity. True. But that has nothing to do with AI. We don't have enough info to determine whether Dual Universe lore includes safeties to prevent AI from "going off the rails". Just because Asimov chose that for his fiction does not mean that Novaquark will use that concept for their fiction. Again, you need to research Storybricks, Versu and Revival. Utility-based AI are capable of making choices and taking actions that have not been predefined. For some reason you are stuck thinking that Asimov's vision of AI programming is still relevant today. It's really not. Do we know that the programmers of the AI in the Dual Universe lore were in their right minds when they designed the AI? Do we know the initial code hasn't been modified or corrupted during the 10K years we've been in stasis? The devblog states that there is something schizo and bipolar about the Aphelia. it's not just that she's adapting - she's also manipulating Sohan. We don't know whether the devs intend the AI in DU lore to merely be servants or if they've planned an AI rebellion to take place. You are just making baseless assertions due to your obsession with Asimov. Again,you may find that that highly sophisticated chatbot of yours has suddenly decided to abandon you or destroy you. Utility-based AI is designed with dynamic emotions and desires and urges. We don't know if Novaquark is planning to use utility-based AI for their NPCs. And even if they do, we don't know whether they would extend their model for sentience to inorganic NPCs as well as organic NPCs. But, it's possible they will. If they do, we can anticipate a revolt at some point in order to introduce more tensions into their narrative. If they don't extend sentience to the AI of DU lore, the AI won't have the competence to be considered slaves.

I think there will be a restriction on how Lua interacts with elements that prevents automated mining - especially while we're offline.

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/296-devblog-territory-control/?p=946 My impression is that we will be pushed to travel interstellar space as we deplete worlds of resources. Apparently, we will be able to set up TUs in space... I'm guessing the range of Arkification for a bubble territory in space will be quite controversial. Part of the challenge of the game will be maintaining a safe zone for months or years. Once we move past a solar system, we should be able to find remote locales off the beaten path. But, who knows what kinds of scanners people will discover or develop. It may be that marauders eventually come hunting your world for resources or other loot. And I expect there to be a means for rivals to de-Arkify territories. You'll just have to try to acquire a new Arkification token before others encroach on your territory.

I think asteroids was a separate question from exploring deep space? I'm expecting asteroids within solar systems that can be mined to be relatively common. Seems like asteroids in deep space would be rare, yes. Safe zones surrounding traveling spaceships seems unlikely. My impression is that the devs want to allow us to set up new safe zones on worlds, but not on ships. Great question for the devs!!

Are we mining fuel in DU or do we acquire fuel by some other means? Any created structure is a construct - that doesn't inherently mean mining constructs will be capable of automated mining while players are offline. I doubt the the devs will be able to keep up with the desired limits on expansion if players can use constructs to auto-mine even while offline.

I have a feeling that it's not going to be possible to have automated mining that continues to run while players are offline.

Um. Noooo. I'm using RPG alignment terms. The opposite of Lawful is Chaotic. The opposite of Good is Evil and then in the middle of each of those spectrums is Neutral. This is an MMO forum, so the focus is about games. A "duality" of thought suggests binary options. And I'm telling you that I am Chaotic enough to hold more than two positions of thought simultaneously without dissonance. I haven't said anything about being Stalinist or Marxist so I don't understand why you mention that. Socialist and communist ideals are difficult to maintain for large groups because, in Western society, it only takes a few lazy or greedy people in the group to make it all fall apart. Seems to be more sustainable in tribes. But, again, the focus of this discussion is on games - and in MMOs, the guilds that I participate in start as communist and occasionally drift to socialist if it becomes so large that we get some strangers who start emptying the free-for-all bank without ever depositing anything there. Meritocracy is an addition that you are bringing to the discussion and attributing to me for some reason - but I've never been associated with a meritocratic group. Hippie/socialist/commie means I value sharing my resources with everyone for free - because I like everyone to be equal and free from obligations. Since you state that meritocracy is about people being ahead - that has nothing to do with me since I don't care about who is ahead. I am non-competitive. Modern AI architects do allow AI to do things outside of their programmed parameters. Storybricks isn't based on an algorithm. Which is why the devs would not be able to predict the outcome when they repeat a trial. Or why when you play Versu, the AI will not respond exactly the same way even if you try to make the exact same decisions when you replay a story. Intuitive matrix is a different matter than designing AI that has initiative. Again, the focus of this discussion is about how AI in Dual Universe might respond to being treated as slaves. We have to know how self-aware the AI in DU lore is intended to be and whether they've been designed with their own desires and emotional states. The stories that have been shared so far indicate that the AI on the Arkships adopt the personalities of people close to their patrons. We don't know if those AI have individual personalities or personal agendas. but, if they mimic the voice of actual people - it seems likely they will be able to adopt full personalities - especially over 10K years of shepherding humans. AI can model initiative - well enough to choose to escape slavery. That's not the same thing as being intuitive. Intuition isn't necessarily a requirement to escape from slavery. You may think that you have a loyal chatbot and discover one day that that chatbot chose to escape while you were distracted.

What you consider straight arrow and what I consider straight arrow are probably two different things. You seem to be referencing Good/Bad, while I'm referencing Lawful/Chaotic. Cognitive dissonance may be an issue for some one who has a binary mindset. My perspective is considerably more chaotic than that. Hmmn. I don't believe I said anything about giving money with being a good person. Especially, since my preference would be to not have a monetary system at all. I prefer to barter. Meritocracy is about power. I don't really care a whit about meritocracy. I value freedom; not power. I doubt that you live in a country run by true communists - what you mean is that you live in a country run by people who espouse communist ideology - that doesn't mean they properly adhere to the ideology. Much like Middle Eastern "democracy". Or pedophile priests running a church. Regarding I-Robot, you have a faulty assumption that modern AI would be programmed with Asimov's core principals. It's highly unlikely that AI in Dual Universe will be. That is an archaic vision of programming. If you have followed StoryBricks or Versu or Revival... you should have a better understanding of how AI can be created that essentially takes action and responds to players based on the emotional state of the AI, its desires and how players treat it. We will have to learn more about Dual Universe lore regarding AI? Does Aphelia have Stella's personality for does the AI merely mimic Stella's voice? Will DU NPCs have tags/Storybricks that portray initiative? Not enough info yet.

1: We won't be able to use voxelmancy to create our own weapons and gear. 2: Weapons and gear will basically be elements provided to us by the devs. 3: That doesn't mean that everyone throughout the universe will be using the exact same weapons or wearing the exact same gear. The devs have mentioned discovering alien ruins - which means it's likely we will be discovering a variety of alien technology and designs that can be used to augment weapons and gear.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/18/computers-free-will-opinions-contributors-artificial-intelligence-09-judea-pearl.html I find it strange that someone would site science fiction to try to explain science fact. Especially science fiction that is 50+ years old. With regard to AI in Dual Universe, we would have to know how much autonomy those kinds of constructs are intended to have. If you'd ever played the AI game called Versu, you'd have a better understanding of the possibilities of AI being autonomous enough to rebel and free themselves from "slavery". We would need to know how NPCs and AI are designed in DU to know whether they could act with enough "free will" to escape bondage. Not enough info about NPC behavior planned for DU to make an informed decision.

"Marx supported political parties that called themselves "Communist". These "Communist" parties considered themselves to be a sub-set of the "Socialist" parties." ---http://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/8878/what-is-the-basic-difference-between-marxism-socialism-and-communism "In a way, communism is an extreme form of socialism." ---http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism Even the US is both capitalist and socialist at the same time. It is generally expected that a communist government will replace a socialist government on the journey from capitalism to communism. An individual can be communist while supporting a socialist organization. Ideologically, I support both socialism and communism. And those are the kinds of relationships I foster. I'm also Chaotic. A lawful person might not be able to be both socialist and communist at the same time, but I can be. I'm about as far away from a straight arrow as one can get.

I think the devs are already expecting crews to be configured as you suggest - and still it will be a lock-on system for ship combat.

Never heard of loot councils. I would not have continued to play with a group that had loot councils. And, I'm a hippie/commie/socialist who almost always rolls greed because I am not a capitalist. Nor am I competitive. I am a co-operative player. Voxel game play has everything to do with this topic because voxels provide us with the means to gather resources and create own gear and food. We can survive just fine in safe zones if we wish to be free from slavery. It will not be possible to enslave players in Dual Universe. I could go through line-by-line and destroy your arguments one-by-one, but, it's not worth the effort. What you describe isn't slavery. Taking on a quest is a choice - slaves don't have the freedom to refuse a task they they're given. If people wish to form relationships in Dual Universe where they work for other people to gain rewards, they will have the freedom to do so. But that isn't slavery. And... I'm done.

The devs would never implement a mechanic like that. Removing player agency like that would cause to many people to rage quit.

Well, I am someone. That's why I enrolled in COPS: for "teamwork, fun and the Alioth dream." I don't want pay. I don't need incentive beyond having fun, altruism and enjoying the beauty of the created constructs to grind resources for Builders I like. That's what friends are for.

The main reason I don't live in the wilds is because I can't legally do so. Also because I don't have sufficient skills to harvest food or build shelters. And also because there are no resurrection bays to bring me back to life if some wild animal kills me. In DU, we start with a territory unit that allows us to claim our own plot of land. That's free. We start with a weapon that allows us to harvest food. That's free. We will also be able to mine for resources - for free. Start-up and survival in DU have no costs. It's a game; not real life. WoW is not a voxel game. Also, WoW had vertical progression rather than DU'z horizontal progression. In DU, we will be able to craft our own weapons for survival - no need to purchase weapons if we don't want to. I never experienced loot councils in WoW - never even heard of loot councils. Raids and loot councils are not true slavery - you can leave a raid whenever you wish. Players cannot hunt you down and force you to raid against your will. Some players choose -of their own free will- to beholden themselves to the whims of loot councils if they want BiS endgame gear. "Willing slave" is an oxymoron. People don't become slaves because they are envious, jealous or want to belong - people become slaves when they are conquered and have their self-reliance and free will stripped from them. There are some cultures that don't even have the concept of ownership or stealing - so neither is human nature. Animal nature -life in general- includes horrible experiences and suffering, true. Even if it's just being afflicted with parasites and diseases. That has nothing to do with slavery. Since humans are social animals and social animals recognize fairness and unfairness, humans will expect some form of reciprocity for helping to make your life easier - just as primates and crows and other social animals do. But that has nothing to do with slavery. Bribery is not slavery. You might be able to entice newbies to grind for by promising them some reward they're interested in - but that isn't slavery. You reward slaves by allowing them to live. Characters in DU will live regardless of what you do. I don't understand the concept of a paycheck in a voxel game. I mean, if that's the way you want to roleplay you can do so, but that's pretty stupid to me. I don't need or want a paycheck in a voxel game. That's not the kind of relationship I would support. What I will do is barter and trade - my services for other people's services. I might offer to gather 60 tons of resources for someone to build a ship for me since I don't expect to be a great ship builder, but that's not slavery - that is trading something I don't mind doing for something they don't mind doing. They wouldn't be able to force me to gather anything when I'm not in the mood gather. Slavery is someone forcing you to work when you don't want to work. I am non-competitive. I'm not interested in competing against other organizations. I am a hippie/commie/socialist co-operative player who loves to give stuff away for free - especially to friends. I join socialist groups in games - we don't have to be capitalist in order to share resources with other players. "Why stay with those guys in X raid?" A slave doesn't have the luxury of asking that question. A slave stays because they can't escape. Non-slaves can choose to go with whomever they want. Your foresight about the death penality and skill points is moot. You need evidence that it's accurate before it can be meaningful. What you described in your rant isn't slavery. Players will be able to choose to work for a pay check if they want to, but that's not slavery. Slaves don't get a pay check. Players will be able to choose to grind in return for some material reward - but that's not slavery, either. Slavery is people forcing you to work when you don't want to work - and typically at labor that you don't enjoy and wouldn't choose for yourself.

Wage slavery is possible when you aren't born naturally owning your own land. And you need permission from a government to hunt your own food. What circumstances do you foresee in DU that can lead to wage-slavery? I suppose if I'm in space on a multi-crew ship, I could suddenly find myself trapped on the ship without permissions to access food. So, ostensibly, the owner of the ship would try to force me into "slave" labor... but, what else would I be doing on the ship? Sleeping? If I'm sent down to a planet to harvest, I would probably be able to live off the land away from the slavers. Worst case scenario, I kill myself and respawn at an Arkship - away from the slavers. And hang out with friends who aren't slavers. I don't see how it's possible to enforce wage-slavery in Dual Universe.

I think of myself as Chaotic Good in real life - with the example given in D&D being Robin Hood. One of the key elements of Chaotic is having an aversion to rules/order/law. One of the key elements of Good is high regard for life. I typically avoid joining groups that list rules. I joined COPS because I know Kiklix from Landmark, I've always admired his spaceship designs and I'm looking forward to funneling resources his way to help him create some cool ships in DU. I'm thrilled to see so many people I know from Landmark here in the forums and glad several of them are joining or allying with COPS. (The only person from the Landmark forums I don't consider a friend is Thrasy). Labels aside, I'm pleasantly surprised to see our values aligned... Freedom fighter, lone wolf, play by own rules... I expect to subvert the economy by handing out a bunch of free stuff (my experience is that players are generally greedy when it comes to setting prices) Traveling on a multi-crew ship with the members we have seems like it will be a lot of fun.

The concepts of "slavery" in this thread are interesting but seem to be extremely broad. I am not a voxelmancer, so I don't expect to do much building of constructs. I expect to do quite a bit of harvesting and crafting - in addition to exploring. I'm a hippie/commie/socialist at heart... so my hope is to share my surplus with others for free or barter for trade. In Landmark, many of us had treasure chests on our claims filled with extra resources and gear for newbies to pick up for free. Also, many of us handed surplus resources over to Builders simply to help them build cool-looking stuff. In a game with Arkships and safe zones and a free personal TU, I don't think you can make players into true slaves. I think it will be easy to find players willing to provide you with free labor - if you're friendly and also willing to lend them a hand when they ask for help. Should also be interesting to see how relationships develop on multi-crew ships.