The_Lone_Janitor

It's more a matter of "whatever.."

We know well enough by now that feedback is ignored and NQ will just push this through the way they want it to be anyway.
 
No amount of fair and valid arguments will make them change their mind, only once their implementation bombs and starts having a negative effect like we predict will NQ possibly act. Problem here i sthat it will be too late as they will have release the game by then and the damage will be done. ANd the concern is that it appears that the people thinking up this stuff seem blissfully unaware or ignrant of the difference between doing this in a "beta" stage (even when it really is an alpha change) or "release". For NQ it's al lthe same ..
 
The fact we're nearly at 8 pages in this discussion an not a singel response form NQ to any of this kind of tells you they really do not care about the feedback at all.

NQ is basically lifting part of a mechanic from EVE again but fails to understand it and so fails to implement the bigger picture.
 
As this is designed in EVE, players do not produce for a finished construct/ships, they set up industry to specialize in certain elements and bring those to market.
 
Translated to DU, when you bring adjustors to market, the output levels will be significantly higher than when you create expensive containers, and we're talking probably triple digit percentage differences here, so the cost for the schematic is effectively much lower per unit produced. At 5000 quanta, a container schematic should build 10, while an adjustor builds 10,000. In that concept, the changes would make sense, except that in DU, Industry is designed more like Factorio or Satisfactory where one industry chain starts with raw resources and produces all the intermediate items to output and end product/element
 
 
In the end, I really feel NQ does not understand the impact the change will have because they do not actually understand their own design for the mechanic and have not looked into how the actual process plays into the entire gameplay loop. And everything we are seeing tells us that this is already done and scheduled to be patched soon, all the feedback in he world is irrelevant as they are about to repeat the 0.23 mistake again.

Also, by removing schematics from markets, NQ is removing an opportunity for trade as players can no longer go and buy schematics from remote planets and offer them for sale on Alioth. Once again NQ is pulling an activity and turning it into a UI interaction only.
 
It all feels like NQ is really trying to remove any actual activity or interaction with the world itself for some reason and keep it all in the UI.

I get what you're saying and agree we need sinks and for the economy to get some balance. NQ also dropped the ball on countless occasions with many exploits that they blatantly ignored for months letting the economy get this way in the first place. Schematic shenanigans on .23 release and many other factory bugs that made people trillionaires and jacked up the whole thing. They also have the logs and could have squashed it then, but didn't. 
 
Now they're trying to fix issues they created by being lax on punishing exploits. Doing so by stealing every game mechanic they can from eve and calling it some new thing. Where's the creativity? Who in that meeting said yeah cool lets copy everything CCP does and play it off like someone actually thought of it. 
 
Where's the damn integrity?

after listening to the last podcast, i think this is no longer an open sandbox. I also think that a few things are happening here.
1. Someone is trying to force their version of an economy down our throats. which never works (because they are not encomiast) and is not very open sand box.
2. The more likely reason is that they are forcing a need for more alts (income proposes).  
 
in any case, once this is implemented and NQ figures out, they broke the game again and people that do mass industry leave and don't come back just like before, it will be a bit too late for them to figure out that they only make the game they don't run it or pay for it.
 
I am the DeFacto leader of Shadow Templar and after this is implemented, we will no longer provide tokened Caterpillar elevators or ships to the general public. This is due to the fact that this change will not allow us to maintain the ability to produce the parts necessary to maintain token sales. 
 
Just FYI whatever nut said players don't make money outside the market clearly doesn't know what's going on in the game they are attempting to develop. In Shadow Templar's case we have never sold parts as a means of income, yet we are fairly wealthy and self-sufficient.

Here copmes 0.23 part two .. and the proof that NQ simply will not bother to learn from past mistakes.
 
As expected, NQ is totally ignoring the feedback they already have and will just shove this change down everyone's throat untested and shortly before/at release.
 
What could possibly go wrong /s
 
Putting aside that the "refunding" answer is bogus for two reasons:
A wipe will happen, removing schematics in game anyway. Just in case no wipe occurs this pretty much says that those who benefitted from the massive exploit where all schematics were available at a 99% discount for some time will benefit massively as NQ never removed those schematics for the game at the time, so if they were not sold or RMT'd already players will not get the full value back in quanta.  
I agree that the indications of both duration for copying and cost are such that you can't produce enough in a timely fashion and/or market prices will go through the roof as this will force prices to go up.
 
And how does NQ see copied blueprints with a vaariation of runs being sold on markets? that just makes no sense.
 
NQ has every intention to just push this and test this on live servers either at or post release, which is just a terrible, terrible idea. The fact that NQ seems to think they can just keep going in their distorted reality of "it's fine to keep this going, release is just a label". Is appears the attitude and considerations that caused JC to drive the game nearly off a cliff is still very much alive at NQ. You simply CAN'T expect to be able to test potentially damaging changes like this in s LIVE SERVICE port release.
 
Oh and the UI they "created" for this is just.. terrible..
 
This is just an overall bad idea, how can anyone at NQ really think this is a good plan and why is there no one at NQ with any sense of "but wait a moment."
Deeply, deeply concerning...

With all the talk about how we will react to it one would think they might actually change some of this crap. But, knowing NQ for what they are this is coming Tuesday and we can all get bent. Because it's their game and we just pay for the right to be told we're wrong and don't see the game dying around us every day from garbage development.
 
They're trying to balance an economy when the elements and gameplay loops aren't even established.  
 
They can't get away with telling us we didn't say anything either. The whole post they tried to bury when they opened this one says we were loud and clear. but we will be ignored yet again.

COPYING
 
Players will have access to a new interface in which they’ll be able to copy batches of schematic copies from Aphelia’s Master Copies. Players will have access to several copying slots that can run simultaneously and will each be able to create a batch of schematic copies. So nothing changes and we still need master copies from a NPC
 
Copying schematic batches will cost time and a small amount of quanta. For example, a batch for smaller tier-one elements or tier-one honeycomb may only cost a couple of thousand quanta to copy, while the most expensive and larger schematics may cost a couple of million. Different types of batches will also give a different number of schematic copies per batch. For example, copying a schematic batch for a large high-tier element may only give you two or three individual copies, but copying a tier-one honeycomb schematic may give you a batch of 25 or more. So you did not remove a money sink but added another one, and added a time sink to it while you were going?
 
CONSUMING
 
Schematic copies will be consumed by the industry unit when an item is made. You will input schematic copies into the schematic banks in the same way as before. Apart from some interface changes to accommodate the new system, the industry unit’s function remains the same. So beside the money sink, the copies will deteriorate, and in the end everyone will still use the master copies as they do not?
 
However, there are a few important points to note:
 
Not everything will require a schematic  
Parts will no longer require schematics at all. This could be subject to change, but we’re experimenting with it in the first release. Subject to change, with other words, this will be implemented later?
 
Additionally, decorative elements, including doors, will not need schematics, though some exceptions may apply. Some exceptions, just do or don’t, why exceptions?
 
You won’t need a schematic for every individual item  
We have many items in Dual Universe. There are types of elements, with different tiers and variations, and all of our honeycomb, scrap, and materials. We felt it was too frustrating and demanding to need a schematic for each item. So we will get a single schematic for all honeycombs, and something similar for other groups of stuff?
 
We want more flexibility and ease for our players. We’re creating schematic copies for each category of items based on factors such as their tier and size, rather than each item in particular. Is this for the master schematics too and can they be used in industry?
 
For example, you could have a schematic copy that makes large tier-three elements and use it to create all types of corresponding items such as large tier-three weapons, engines, industry units, etc. Similarly, for example, you would only need one schematic for all tier-one pure honeycombs and another for all tier-one product honeycombs. Sounds nice but how is deteriorating with respect to produced items? Specially with honeycombs where I normally produce shiploads at once, is deteriorating per run or per item?
 
Finally, you’ll be able to list your schematic copies for sale on the market, enabling you to manage your stocks by buying and selling schematic copies. Will it be shown how many uses are left?
 
CONCLUSION
 
To summarize, our goals for the new system are:
 
For personal and smaller industries, players can make schematic copies for a relatively minor cost and run a small number of industry units. This brings back small, ‘backyard’ industries of convenience. Note that you can still have a lot of machines, but the number of schematic copies you can copy by yourself will limit the number of machines that can run simultaneously. This goal will not be reached, with the current schematics I am already working on a large industrial complex that just runs fine, the new deteriorating stuff just is tedious and irritating as I now also need to keep that in watch. Also the system will in the end cost more quanta as a schematic now is a one time cost, and with the copy system it’s a recurring cost. New system and old system are both not working, still not going for research or deleting this stuff?  
For larger scales, it will require player cooperation, making larger industrialists purchase schematics from the markets or rely on friends and organizations to generate schematic copies for their factories. No it wont, if time is the issue people will just and only buy masters and use those, there is not a word that those cannot be used in industry, new nerf incoming?  
Schematic copies are more flexible and easier to handle. You don’t need a schematic for every item. You can use the same schematic to make one of many different items. This limits the total number of schematics, making managing them simpler. Nope, people will still need the same production units as they are needed to make the parts and therefore the same number of schematics are needed for every piece of industry that actually needs a new schematic. As long as LUA cannot change the produced product in an industrial unit with a simple click whole industrial setups will remain needed.  
Copying time, batch sizes, number of copying slots, and quanta cost can be more easily adjusted and modified based on feedback and metrics. Uhm, we now have non of this, so why did life get better with this new minigame added?  
 
Conclusion:
Industry will become even more tedious and time and quanta consuming then it already is. NQ has developed a new system and forgot to listen to all the remarks already given. An addition like research that would open a whole area of playing field is neglected again.
Time and quanta sink added and this will not bring cooperation as things can still be done individually with not so much added effort.
Will the goals of NQ be reached with this: No
Will this idea help players having more clean playtime: No
Will it stimulate cooperation more then the current system or the pre 0.23 system: No
Is another mini game added like mining calibration that just costs time: Yes
Will this enhance bot and exploit use: Yes
Will this enhance goldsellers: Yes
Will this help global economy: indecisive
Overall added value to Dual Universe: None

That would imply that NQ has game designers -- I'm honestly not sure they do. 
 
Here, they looked at this as a problem with game balance in an isolated way without remembering they are designing a game. They focused so much on trying to fix their problem, they forgot that they're making a game.
 
It doesn't matter if the solution meets their definition of balance or scale if that "solution" makes the game less fun and engaging. No one is seeing the fun in more micromanagement. 
 
This seems like such a basic design error that I can't believe they have an experienced design lead. The game will never see more feature depth...just endless refactors of failed systems.