Rimezx

So the problem is about the abandonment and decay system after subscription ends. As the system stands now when a player's subscription ends a 90 day timer starts and after this timer ends this player loses ownership over any construct they own, making that construct available for claiming by others and if not claimed it just dissapears from the game after one more month. This applies for every place and tile in the universe including haven. I don't know which monkey thought that this is a good idea. I understand that leaving constructs on alioth forever can cause stability issues and lag and they need to be recycled somehow, also the planet will be filled with inactive tiles from inactive players that could be reused by new players. All that is understandable BUT a player should be able to keep their stuff if they want to take a break from the game. As this system stands now whats gonna happen is players will eventually stop playing for a while, because thats what people do they don't play games forever, they quit they come back, they have lives and work. They are going to figure out they lost of their constructs and effort and what are they gonna do then? You guessed it right, leave the game and never look back. Dual universe is a big time investment. It is not a game like rust where you play for a week build stuff and then hop on a new server. This effort cannot just be deleted like this because of optimization issues. If i know that all of my effort is going to be deleted eventually then i should just quit outright, is the though proccess most people are gonna have when they figure this out. Have you seen another online game of the mmo genre do this? This seems like an intentional extortion of a sort .. "buy game time or you lose your constructs". I know that this is most likely not intented (really hope not). Since i don't like talking out of my a@@ and i like providing suggestions rather that randomly criticizing someone, i am going to propose all of the solutions i can think of for this issue with prio from top to bottom in which i think would be the best. Possible solutions: 1. Make game simply not load costructs of accounts with inactive game time. The tile will be taken but people will not load or see anything on it until the player buys game time again. 2. Create an istance somewhere in the persistent universe where a player can go and store everything they own when they quit. Only visible to said player and anyone they have given rights to and not loadable by the rest, so its just data and doesnt impact the game stability. 3. Reduce number of HQ tiles to one per player but make this one tile be untoutched forever. Or give a main HQ or something for this reason. 4. Create a new dump planet/moon where players dump their stuff when they quit. 5. This one is the worst idea but is acceptable. Increase inactive time from 3 months to 2 years and not less. And no 6 months is not enough. People quit for 6 months and come back. My conclusion is that this change cannot wait. People are going to quit over this and never come back. if u wait for 3 months before implementing this and ppl lose their constructs they are gone. After one year at most the game will be dead. I was one of the first people to warn you about patch 0.23 back in the beta and guess what exactly what i said happened. This time around there won't be a "release" to save your asses if you botch this again. Consider yourselves warned.

I agree with most of your last post @Penwith. Regarding this, The game gives you the means to achieve this result. Every ship built with this logic would achieve fairly similar results. If for whatever reason a player builds a badly engineered ship then goes ahead claiming warping is not worthwile because of it, then it's not the game's fault. You reap what you sow. I am not going to calculate with how the average ship is built or how the average person flies it. It wouldn't make sense to do so. People can always buy such a ship and learn to fly it. Some people just put 50 vertical engines or a million brakes on a ship because they fail to land otherwise and then they go and start complaining about the fuel cost, which is hillarious. Fuel is very cheap in this game. For me to consider not warping over the pvp zone the cost would have to be x3-4 times the current cost. Otherwise it saves me time and trouble. I've warped many times. Never was in any danger of hitting something. Chances are very slim in space anyway and i don't know if you even get damaged if you collide with something during warp. Denying the pirate their loot even at the current pvp conditions is not the solution tho in my opinion. Having a safe warp option is already a blow to pirates. Are you trying to get all the pirates to quit the game? Because if i was a pirate and i saw a change like that i would unistall.

As usual missinterpreting every possible sentence that can be missinterpreted without reading thinking.. anyway. A starter has no business flying into the pvp zone before they have warp and understand how it works. If they do then it is their choice. You can start with a less expensive smaller ship. Anyone with an IQ greater than 50 can understand how to make the no warp trip safer. Chances are overwhelmingly higher to just pass undetected that to get into trouble. So we do not have to account for that one unlucky person that gets ganked their first time trying. Farming a scanner takes a few hours. Farming a warp capable ship after finding a mega with the scanner takes about 4 hours. It is just as worthwile carying t1 ore. Simple you load light ore like bauxite or coal put more containers on a ship until you fill it and same profit. Even you don't fill the ship its still worthwile to do. Doesn't have to be t3 that was a simple example. Carying any quantity of t4 makes it even more worthwile. 100% valid data. If you wanna see the said ship you can come take a look at it anytime. Rest of that paragraph is off the topic. Repair costs from crashing have nothing to do with our point about warping and pvp. I have been flying back and forth from virtually everywhere multiple times. Never happened to crash due to lag. Yes i got lag spikes here and there, even some game crashes very rarely, but not enough to bring me down. If it happens its gonna be like 1/200 flights. Out of maybe 200 trips i crashed one time because i was being overconfident and reckless. And another time that i managed to hit a space elevator with a speed of 3900 at alioth low orbit. Again this has nothing to do with it. It is apparent to me that you do not want to do the math not that you cannot do it. Because the numbers simply prove you wrong. This generally never happens unless you are the luckiest guy in du. Warp is 100% gurantee. Not warping is a choice. Also stop looking at this a single instance of losing everything. You have to calculate this as cost in the long run over multiple attemps, while assesing the chances of success and loss. Do you understand how propabilities work in math? Go play some black desert and you'll figure it out. This is precicely what should happen if you get caught and killed. What could happen instead is if there was a form of communication between pirate and prey, so the prey could voluntarily hand their cargo to the pirate so that they dont harm the ship if loss unavoidable. Deleting your loot is just a micro penis move. Like a crybaby. I know NQ won't listen to bs like this anyway, but i feel like answering you. P.S. I am on the prey side not a pirate and saying this. When and if pvp works fine i'd love to be a "bounty hunter".

You are making it sound a lot harder than it actually is. Reality: One successful trip with t3+ cargo is enough to make ~4 warp capable ships. Since you are propably going to try countering this argument without presenting any valid data: one of my cargo haulers is a warp capable ship without AGG. Weight empty 520 tons. Total weight full 2500+ tons. Cost to make about 8mil including warp drive at current market prices. Cargo volume 450KL. Lets say im hauling a cargo of 300KL acanthite from ion to alioth (not accounting for container mass reduction talent). Let's assume acanthite price 100 per 1L and warp cell price 10k per cell. Warp empty trip cost ~75 cells. Warp back full ~313 cells. Total 388 cells or 3.9 million at market price (making your own cells or getting from your org at mats price is a lot cheaper). That would be 30mil worth of cargo at 3.9 mil total warp cost, about 13% cost. If i decided to go without warp i would gain a 13% extra in exchange for ~4 hours of traveling to get back. Whole ship costs a measly 20% of one cargo haul. AGG ships make the cost even less as they can carry much more cargo compared to their own weight. My AGG M core weights 1100 tons empty and can carry up to 14kt of cargo with an S AGG. Warping any material other than hematite is very worthwile. Losing a ship along with the cargo after multiple successful runs would be a meh. Instead of 5% total loss as i stated above it would get to like 6%. So do the math stop beeing a whinny carebear and accept that the game has PvP in it and the players who spend the time required to do it should earn something for it. If you can't handle it don't be a transporter.

You do not like piracy i get it. PvP does not work well right now i agree. What people like you tend to ignore is that piracy requires time and effort too and is also risky for the pirate. What you are suggesting is the equivalent to removing pvp all together. You want the game to be like that? Say it out right and be done with it. This is not a solution. If you want to avoid it right now the game gives you the option to warp. This is what i am saying. You have to also think from the mindset of the opossing side to reach a valid conclusion of how a mechanic should work. I am not a pirate in-game but i understand how it should work. You should look at this as a matter of propabilities not as a single hauling instance. How many times will this happen to you out of every time you haul cargo through the pvp zone? Lets say 1/20? Losing everything that one instance would mean a total loss of 5% for you. As the game is right now i do not see a reason not to warp. First of all it saves you the time of traveling at sublight speeds. Time you could use farming the warp cost. Depending on the cargo you carry the cost is a small percentage of the cargo value something like 5-10%. If your ship is engineered correctly and is not some overweight overkill machine that weights 3 times more than it has to, then warping should not be a problem. Most ships tend to be lacking in that department, especially those ships from creators that emphasize on looks. You could also make a ship capable of defending itself and not go alone.

This is stupid. A pirate destroys a ship in order to get the cargo. Not only this shouldn't exist but players should be unable to delete their cargo after combat starts. If a pirate kills you they deserve your cargo. Wanting to deny the pirate their loot just because you lost, is beyond butthurt.

I've played wow for many years too. I started back in tbc and went through every expansion up to bfa. I didn't buy shadowlands because i'm tired of expecting a game that will never exist again from blizzard and i'm not willing to pay them ever again. So i understand exactly what you mean, but wow is a themepark mmorpg. DU being a sandbox single shard world is completely different. Sandbox games usually require long term investment, but also give you high reward in time for that effort. You cannot start wiping this effort whenever new content arrives, doesn't work that way. What sandbox games do is introduce some new shiny item/content that is slightly better than whatever you had before so that the players start grinding for it again. Your old items never lose their value though. Look at a sandbox game like black desert for example. Also note that this game has many similarities with eve online. I never played eve but i've been checking out how it works.

The biggest issue is not the subscription cost. It was said there will not be a wipe in this beta so people invested time and effort in the game, treating it as a release. The amount of effort many people put into this game far outweights the subscription cost. People felt like all of their effort had been wasted. This is why the backlash is so intense.

You just liquidate enough to do whatever you need to do but you keep your capital in something other than money. Welp it benefits me if you don't do it anyway.

This is what will happen. This is how the game injected quantas into the economy when the beta started. This is how it works on any mmo game. Money is just a number that has some value calculated in effort time. It does not really matter what that number is, only the required effort to build a product counts. Yes if you change the said price on the bots it causes an inflation and changes the value of the currency, but that has nothing to do with the market not moving. If you want my advice dont keep quantas in this game.

The only way this can happen is if players can also buy these tokens with irl money and sell them for in game currency, otherwise they just lose profit from people never paying which will never happen. It is a terrible idea in my opinion p2w is not something i want in this game. Anyone willing to spend irl money on the game would have an even more unfair advantage like this. Let's not follow in the footsteps of blizzard.

Not really. The reason the market is frozen right now is because the economy is not moving in general. There is very low demand on elements, since most ships were grounded, so the factories do not produce and everyone is spending their money on schematics instead of production. With time the market will stabilize and people will start buying ore at higher prices than bots. All market products will be according to those prices. The only thing bots change is the value of the money/quantas. If they did not exist then how do we generate the required quantas to buy the schematics we need for the economy to start moving again? Since this a common missconception they should just move bots from the player market into a vendor like market like any other game, to avoid confusion. Just create a new tab on the market or something.

You need to account for crafting talents. They make a huge difference. If you calculate raw as a starter you won't see the real price picture. To have any chance to compete in prices with established industrialists you need at least lvl 4 crafting talents in refining/product refining/intermediate parts. What you say in your last paragraph is very true. I've said this before this patch, but it cannot work any other way right now until ships stop exploding for no reason.

You shouldn't worry about this right now. I completely agree but not only physics bugs but also performance has to be worked out before this change can become viable. Also if PvP gets to it's anticipated size in the near future it will be enough for a while.

Adressing this to NQ, This is a step in the right direction indeed. I cannot speak for everyone, but note that this whole fiasco has caused irreparable damage to players trust. We need an one month subscription option. I for example cannot trust you again with 3 months of sub after this. The same can be said for my friends and many other people i have discussed this with. Not having this option doesn't do anyone any good. If you are confident about your work there shouldn't be an issue with this. It is sending away possible starters who stop and reconsider when they see they have to buy a 3 month sub instead of one. Everyone i ever tried to recruit did not like this. Almost every subscription modeled game has one. Not having one at least gives the wrong impression to people if not anything else. I have about 3 weeks of time left, if there is no such option when it ends i am not planning to renew my accounts. Before this my friends and me were looking at this game very positively. Even with all it's bugs, issues and missing content we were finding ways to have fun. Now our will to play has been shattered and we went from positive to less than neutral. Now we need some stability and time if we are going to stay anyway that is. About the changes: Instead of going through the logs painstaikingly trying to refund everyone for their schematics, you could simply mark the old schematics and add bots to all markets buying them at their old price. Also note that many of these schematics ended in shared factories, bought by many different people. Just compensating the account that bought them with quanta might create chaos to their arrangements. I think game performance has to become a temporal priority to you. A big reason changes like element destruction from crashes cannot work right now is due to this. I don't expect the game to be optimized at this stage, but at least get it to a playable level. Alioth at a radius of 50km around the markets is unplayable with any graphics card that has under 8 gb of vram. Entry level card for 2k resolution on alioth for this game is the 1080 Ti. My 8gb 1070 Ti almost maxes out on memory at 1080p at my base. I have to restart the game each time i return to my base even from a little 15 km flight. The average gamer does not have a gpu capable of handling alioth rnow. People were flying their friends to start alone at remote places because they couldnt play and now they have to use the markets ... Almost everyone finds the idea of having the schematics scattered across different planets tedious rather than an "entairtaining new business capability". I would rather have all schematics available on a static npc like unit at all markets with fixed price. ATV players opinion should not have any greater weight, than that of any other player. There shouldn't be any special treatment to them concerning game changes and they shouldn't be recieving information earlier. They are still players they will obviously leak this info to their friends. The test server is a great idea that should have been so from the start. It could also serve as a training ground for starters.

It cannot work any other way right now. Think about it. The pvp system in this game is not ready for this change. If it happened now it would be an even grater disaster than 0.23. Welp i think the game is dead already so i don't even know why I am even considering its future.

Well i agree with you that in the current state of the game pvp cannot really function as it should. The game is nowhere near completion. What i would like to note by quoting that part is that it's not only about enjoyment. What you are referring to is piracy, which is one kind of pvp. Yes i know its pretty much the only pvp activity right now. Since piracy is also about profit, logic dictates that you go for an engagement that minimizes risk and maximizes the reward. Yes you can go fight against an equally powerful opponent that can fight back but what will that earn you right now?

Since when are the fighers the ones with the micro penis? ? Everyone will contribute into building the civilization including the pvpers. Where will the pvpers get the resources they need to fight ? In a healthy community you will need them and they will need you.

I've discussed with multiple people and gathered my thoughts before wring this post. I will list all possible ways i could think of to improve or resolve the current situation. First and foremost, before going into further detail i want to point out some stuff. This patch has caused the absolute pandemonium within the community. If it isn't the greatest disaster of a patch I've ever seen from a game company it is definitely in the top five. When you have multiple controversial and hard to implement changes the obvious move is to release them one by one, watch how your players digest each one, adjust it and only then attempt to release the next one. You do not just dump everything on the playerbase and expect it to somehow work out. Whoever made this decision probably needs to stop making decisions. Besides that there was no given time to even discuss the changes. The patch preview with the industry changes was posted just one day before the patch was dropped on our heads like 25 kilotons of concrete. The community had almost no chance to react in time. There should have been a survey just to see what the players think beforehand, but not only that did not happen but some people got tipped off from the inside about this change beforehand and made preparations for it, profiting greatly in expense of everyone else. If this isn't low i do not know how else to describe it. Adding bots to the economy is one thing. Changing the price these bots buy items is another. It completely changes the value of money in the economy. The economy has been totally unstable since the start of the beta. Quantas value was shifting constantly making investing into anything a risk. Whoever decided to keep quantas instead of ore pretty much lost half their buying power. NQ you should seriously consider hiring an economist to design and manage your economy instead of just making changes yolo. After the roast this is what i propose as solutions/improvements. Add bots also buying the schematics at the same prices. If someone made a mistake and bought schematics they do not need they could sell them back right away at the same price. Considering some schematic titles are misleading like steel schematic/steel product schematic. This could also work if a decision to remove schematics again is made. Everyone sells them to these bots problem solved. Instead of schematic per unit the schematic bank could be put on the core and a limit on how many units can operate the same schematic before a second one needs to be added. This would remove the need of the tedious task of having to put the schematics on all units and then having to change and maintain them. Also the old factory configurations could still work without having to rip all units and connections and start from scratch. If there were no number limits it would temporarily be much better. The average player would still use the market and the industrialist will get a way to make their initial investment faster. A limit to this could be added later with the tile energy management update, limiting how many units the core can operate at the same time. Schematics prices need to be adjusted if schematics are to stay. MAGG schematic cost is 2.6 billion and right now it seels for 23 million. Considering it takes 12 days to craft one (not accounting for talents), if the profit is something like 10 million per AGG (probably is less) someone would need to craft and sell AGGs for 3120 days or 8.5 years to make the initial investment. Not accounting the rest of the schematics needed to create the components. It is obvious that noone tried to calculate these things and a random price a formula generated was dumped. Good job! Instead of adjusting schematic prices what could be done is to change the price bots buy ores at, effectively changing the value of quantas making these schematics prices reachable. Like buying hematite for 2500 quantas each. Cancel all market orders from players before reopening the server and multiply everyones quanta by 100. Players would have to get rid of their shematics beforehand and buy them again after the change. Add an option to not use schematics on industry units (again if schematics are to stay) at least up to T1 recipes. These units will be able to craft recipes but at increased materials cost (around 50%). This would help the starters to start and get into industry. If someone is willing to be self sufficient by knowingly crafting everything at a higher price let them. Most people that care about prices will just use the market. Give players time to return to command seat after loading back from a disconnect before the momentum returns. Also make the ship remeber its old engine thrust setting on command seat initiation. Having to start engine warmup again at a stage like reentry is lethal. Give core units 1 extra life instead of zero. Why make everyone carry a second core unit on their ship. It makes no sense. Give the ship 1 chance to repair and fly back with scraps. Implement anchoring for AGG ships with or without a time limit. This is needed immediately now that the patch is out. Otherwise AGG ships can only be operated by multiple people.

Can't include all possible combinations in a single poll.

It has been like this from the start. That is how they injected quantas into the economy in the first days of the beta. With their new schematics prices this is required if enough money is to somehow get generated in order to buy expensive schematics (which are sold by bots meaning the quantas disappear from the economy). It could work without bot orders if they only relied on the daily 100/150k from the start and let the players trade with those. Market prices would be according to that, money would have different value and problem solved. But now that people already posses large capitals there is nothing to be done. The problem with this approach is that mining (world resources) vanish from the universe and they do not respawn. At start they had bots buying all elements which is like a country printing money out of thin air and paying everyone. If they add those again money value slowly changes and money becomes worthless. That is why everyone was keeping ore instead of money. What can be done is to remove those orders from the player market and add them to a separate npc market. Doesn't really make any difference. These are equivalent to vendors in other games. They just dictate the value of the currency. Although changing their price immediately alters the value of held capitals from all players, that is why they need to be careful. As i said in another post they need to hire a real economist. Seriously. This game's economy is obviously too complex for the devs to handle correctly. The economy is totally unstable. Worst kind of conditions for someone to make an investment.

The bot orders are the equivalent to vendors in rpg games. They are just confusing because they are in the same market players use to trade with each other. Even if they didnt inject any money into the economy and only gave the 150k per day the economy would work just fine. Quantas would have different value and all items prices would adjust to that. Large engines for example would sell for something like 1k quantas. Numbers do not make any difference. But now the deed is done. Removing them at this point would benefit only the ones already possesing large capitals. Increasing bot buy order prices for ore, like they did, screws over anyone keeping capitals by dropping money value in general. I think NQ should really hire someone with a degree in economics if they wanna go hard into economy and let them fix their economy for them. Each small change can have serious consequences in an economy and changes are flying in like crazy lately.

Let's see what the community thinks of these patch changes in general.

Im sick of seeing posts about eve actually. I dont give an f about how eve works. Ive been seeing eve mentioned everywhere in the forums. If you wanna play eve go play eve, it already exists we dont need a second one. Clear your mind from set ideas from eve and start thinking anew for this game. Otherwise you get an eve 2, which might be what you want, but you get the point. We should learn from eve's mistakes and carve a new way, not copy what we have already seen.

They will propably have to reduce schematic prices greatly or watch their subs disappear. They will be forced to sooner or later. The longer they take the higher the chances people are gonna get fed up and start searching for other games. And they call this a beta test. Please. This is pre alpha paid with a sub and a 3 month one at that haha. Half of the freaking game is missing. Back to waiting for ashes of creation i guess. 66% of forum users want to quit xd. Percentage will be higher out there from people that do not bother reading forums. GG. Definition of game beta test: Beta testing usually depends on volunteers rather than on paid play testers. By the beta-testing stage, all major bugs should have been worked out in earlier, in-house testing. By the time the beta-testing stage is reached, it is usually too late to make any major changes to the game mechanics, level designs and so on, so any fixes usually take the form of a patch. This definition was written in the context of Gaming