Underhook
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Posts posted by Underhook
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I thought I'd better warn people that the adjacency bonus is only profitable it certain circumstances and one of those circumstances is high ore price.
My experience is limited but what I have been able to do so far:
The total amount of ore in a hex seems to depend on the tier of the ore, so on a planet like Maddis we might have total ore of around 500 to 550 mostly T1
On Ion and Symeon where I have done about 130 scans the total ore count is more like 270. For example my best hex are Ion coal 4lph, limestone 3lph, acanthite 262 lph. and on Symeon cery similar with Garnerite 262.
My skills: Mining unit manager: All level 4 except for cal charge vol which is level 3
Improved mining unit manager: Extraction eff level 3, cal charge opt level 2, cal charge eff level 4
Test case 1:
So, my site on Symeon has 2 mining units mining garnerite T3. and I have one adjacent hex for testing.
Each unit has 100 % calibration
Base rate is 106 but the are each producing 112lph. This leaves the hex with a pool of 38 remaining (not worth another unit cal charge?)
so 2 units at 112 = 224 ,so, adjacency bonus of 10% = 22.4 lph
so 22.4 lph x 24 hours = 537.6 x 7 days = 3,763 litres per week
Yester day I put 20K of garnerite on the market for 391 close to the bottom price. However right now the price at market 6 is 271 (yes its big litres)
So 3,763 litres x 271 quanta = 1,019,773
which gives a profit of 20,000 quanta
if the price drops any more it will be a loss.
Test case 2:
I dont have T1 mining so I have based this on scans from Maddis.
The actual scan is Coal 57, Hema 158, Quartz 36 and Baux 280. Now most people would not mine this so lets get rid of quartz (lowest price) and maybe put the coal and quartz numbers into Baux.
So our pretend test hex is Hema 158 and Baux 373 ....... fair?
Ok in this scenario 3 units on Baux and maybe 2 on Hema
3 on Baux thats 106 x 3 = 318 leaving 55in the pool. Due to my skills though I'm getting 112 per unit = 336
1 on Hema thats 106 x 1 = 106 leaving 53 in the pool. Due to my skills though I'm getting 112 per unit = 112
So 336 + 112 = 448 lph
10% adjacency bonus will provide 44.8 lph x 24 hours = 1075.2 x 7 days = 7,526 bonus litres
Current market 6 prices Baux = 55 and Hema = 51
Baux 5,645 x 55 = 310,475 Hema 1,882 x 51 = 95,982
Adjacency bonus on T1 for 7 days nets total 406,457
tax 1,000,000 - 406,457 = loss of 593,543
Conclusion:
If you have low mining skills, in most cases avoid adjacency as it will almost certainly be a loss. If you are mining T1 even with maxed mining skills adjacency will still probably be a loss but might work out OK for very large well managed operations. If T1 ore prices triple from current value then a small profit would be possible.
Now of course if you are running a big operation on T2 or above where the adjacent hex also have mining units the loss may be less or could even turn a profit. Just do the math 1st. I would hate to see players doing all the work just to go bust.
For my purposes I have chosen to have solo sites mining different ores to try and protect myself from market fluctuations.
Please feel free to correct any mistakes I may have made and please add any useful information. Good luck space peoples.
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Yes, somebody else also suggested a royalty tax. A common method used in the real world for mining and logging
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3 minutes ago, Thunderblaze said:
I have something like over 135 tiles for just myself now. Demeter caused me to go into a land grab mode.
Wow. I guess that makes sense if you have a lot of quanta and I might have done the same. It would seem this update really favours people who have amassed fortunes. At the start of demeter I had 52 million quanta. Now I have around 15 ( spent a lot on MU etc) and ore prices are dropping.
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12 hours ago, Warlander said:
I really dont know at this point if NQ is stupid, sadistic, or if they just have lemming yes men & women who are all collectively dumb,
Honestly they could have just gone with the old system that made sense that compounded as you bought more talents and just charged people like 150k tax per week per tile and it essentially would have done the same thing. Since its 150k NQ didnt need HQ tiles if you simply logged in 7 days a week you get 7 free tiles unless you want more then you pay escalting drop costs and a modest upkeep to prevent land grabbing rather than "you get more ore then you pay in taxes".
Then just add a sink for miners to trade the taxes with a resource sink like a drill bit that keeps the ore market moving with tiers that focus or balance liters per hour, -time, or duration of drill bits that use a combination of ore per tier so we can buff the units or use bits slower or faster.
This would have done the same thing and got quanta out of the game and instead of just flooding the market with ore nobody needs and instead keeps the market moving since charges are pretty much drill bits only they use some artifical action time unit rather than a drill bit.
And you dont need charges or mini games if you just make all the ore it generates on the ground since the actual output is garbage vs the mini gam and eventually you have to pick it up on the ground so just put it on the ground without the BS.
They should have treated mining units like industry units instead of treating MUs like some kind of carnival novelty game. Imagine if Industry had this type of red tape in the sense that you had to drop a TU, put down a static core, and you could only put down like 7-12 industry units, you could only make 4-6 products per tile, you could only craft 500 times per hour max, you had to play a mini game to spawn parts around your tile, and pay 1 mil for industry on top of mining units?
Its stupid for sure but you could apply the MU logic to any part of the game. Why not make piltoing part of the charge system so you take a breathalizer test to start the ship and it spawns gas in your tile, Play some kind of reloading mini game every time you want to launch a missle, fire a chain gun, shoot a lazer, etc. Why not add some kind of crane mini game any time you want to transfer inventory from one container to another. Its stupid and nobody would want to do this crap on any other playstyle experience so why even bring the system into the game?
Then why need 100 tiles per person anyways? NQ didnt think to go one step further in mining units to adapt the old mining system into the new one. Before this we had finite ore pools and all they needed to do was have ore respawn randomly to simulate the old tile structure and instead of voxels they just needed ore stacks in an inventory that are essentially nodes. Had they put the inventory in the first screen on the MUs you could of clicked on coal or whatever and had like 50 stack nodes of coal you could put a miner on, or multiple miners on 1 tile and not need 100 tiles with 700 miners if you just needed a handful of tiles with hundreds of miners each like industry.
If NQ would have stuck with a finite pool then just randomly generated different ores or ore amounts via stacks of ore you can put miners on its better than sub prime mortgage tiles that should be different as time goes on. Had they had finite ore pools, hundreds of node stacks and miners you had to watch as a 4kl stack of ore wouldnt take long to mine vs a 1mil ore stack you need more units on like the old system without voxels. You could litterally just spawn all the ore on the tile on the surface and with needing drill bits it justifys the ore spawn with a sink.
Its infintely better then whatever demeter was designed to do by doing the same thing but better.
YES people are not dumb. They are smart people who want to keep their job. Management that encourages and fosters yes people is dumb.
I was a fairly new arival at a company and I was in a state sales meeting. The general manager expressed his dismay that people were not speaking up in meetings and that we needed more input from the "team". So, the next meeting when he asked for feedback, I gave some. He tore strips off me and told me I was an idiot. He started giving me a funny look because ....... I was laughing uncontrollably.
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I (1 account) had 16 territories (not including Sanct) before Demeter and now I have 11 but may need to reduce that to 10 (5 are currently HQ). I dont use adjacency currently as ore prices dont cover the cost. I might get more territory if ore prices go up. I was essentially holding a territory in many planets so I could move depending on wars etc. I didnt realise how far off territory war was.
With that said, if ore prices keep dropping I may have to remove them all. I put 20K of garnerite on the market last night at 391 (just a bit higher than the lowest price, this morning the price is 271 (large amount)
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I feel this is a good new player experience. It leads us to learning about moving between markets and Sanctuary and Alioth without a ship. It also leads us to realise just how good being able to compact a small ship/racer is.
Also I feel you missed learning about some of this stuff because you had friends giving you a ride etc. When we are on our own, with no ship we tend to learn these things before we end up in a bad location.
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2 hours ago, Anopheles said:
Game will stabilize, (as it always does), after a patch.
The problem is that everyone will try to sell ore because it's the simplest way to earn. That and missions. Every other means of making cash requires an investment into industry which for the new player or the casual builder is going to be an issue.
I suppose it will hit the "I just wanted to build" element of the player base hard who have now been told to grind before that can happen.
Yes it will be interesting. Those of us who were building or providing services now have tax to pay and ore to sell. Not sure how many players who never used to sell ore will now be selling ore. The changes in the economy be fun to watch.
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13 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:
For my part, I like and welcome the mining units. Just the territory tax is way too high, especially for territories that do not have much ore value. Tax should be based on ore value.
Known as a royalty tax which is what many countries charge mining and logging companies
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Been doing some scanning and the issue you have raised here is major but I would really like confirmation of the problem from a few players.
So, is it definitely the case that if our mining rate exceeds the amount of ore in the pool we can not mine?
If thats the case it is definitely broken. Why?
1) lets say I find (and I just have) a hex with 105 limestone and 104 acanthine. I am incapable of mining this because my base rate is 106.
2) This means that upgrading our skills to increase our mining rate actually excludes us from mining many sites?
So, can anybody else confirm this?
Ok, I'm editing this post because I got it wrong. We can still use a mining unit that has more rate than pool available.
As far as I can tell the only fault is that the yellow tag is displayed on a working unit. The yellow tag is a good idea on a unit that is not currently turned on as it warns us that the unit is capable of mining more ore than is in the pool but it should not appear on a unit that is already turned on and drawing its maximum.
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1 hour ago, joaocordeiro said:
Just showing 2 questions already asked that don't need elaboration.
Who are you asking then?
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20 minutes ago, Creator said:
The yellow box, is the warning that I hovered over to see the info box that is frustrating me.... miner was freshly dropped post any skill improvements.OK, maybe I'm wrong then. The reason I thought that was. I looked at my unit. Then I upgraded a skill then I looked at my unit again to see what changes each skill was making to rate etc. After doing that a bit I upgraded most skills to level 4. I looked at my unit again and that yellow tag appeared. Also I noticed that my efficiency had dropped from 100% to 95%. I assume the efficiency would go up with next calibration. Anyway back to the yellow tag. I assumed (maybe wrongly) that the yellow tag was indicating that my rate would go up either upon calibration or upon lifting and replacing the unit (yes I was reapplying my skills to the construct). Have you been able to get rid of the yellow tag yet?
EDIT
Sorry, didnt read your post carefully enough. So you placed it post skill upgrade. Hmmm, I got the yellow box but (im far away now) from memory I had way more in the ore pool that I could possibly draw. Anyway, its for sure an issue that need fixing.
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1 hour ago, joaocordeiro said:
Do you belive fast travel is not needed for the game to be successful?
Do you belive that crafting anything, no matter how basic it is, should require a schematic
After you answer this, I will ask more.Thats not elaborating
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An extremely talented youtuber has created a video to help fellow space peoples who may be having difficulties understanding how the new Demeter mining system works. I think his name is Underhook
Anyway, so this post is not just a video promotion a couple of important details regarding the new system have become apparent.
1) Calibration skills are extremely important.
2) Adjacency bonus is probably not worth it unless: 2a )you have mining units on every one of those tiles 2b) your calibration skills are very good (since the bonus is applied to the final ore pulled and not the rate) 2c) Ore prices are good.
3) Multiple units do not compensate for poor calibration skills. Lets say our pull rate is 105lph and our ore pool is 220. After calibration with low skills we might actually be extracting 50Lph. However our mining unit is still drawing the full 105 and we still only have 115 remaining to be drawn upon. So the maximum units we can have for that ore is 2. The only way to increase our yield is through calibration and other skills.
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15 minutes ago, Creator said:
So 2 mining units, one for Baux and the other for Iron, both have a reduction penalty saying production is diminished due to lack of material left in the pool for this ore type. Yet as you can see both have 46L and 118L left for their respective minerals to pull from. Even if it was a calibration issue, the additional 29% missing from calibration does not get the MU to cap on that mineral.
Need to delay taxes until basic things like this are fixed that impact players, your quality assurance is terrible, this should have never made it into Dementor.
I think I know whats happening here.
So as I'm sure you know by now your mining unit pulls its full rate from the ore pool even though the actual ore extracted is usually wat less. Your probably saying to yourself I know that but I'm pulling 112 and bauxite has 118 remaining in the ore pool. BUT .... see that little yellow symbol next to your 112L I'm pretty sure that indicates that you have upgraded you skills since you last calibrated this unit. I would not mind betting that your new skills will have you pulling more than 118. Thats why its saying you dont have enough. It is a bumer though that a skill we have to invest in actually ends up reducing the amount of ore we can mine. This does need to be fixed. A unit should be able to operate even if its maximum possible draw is above the available pool.
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2 hours ago, Cergorach said:
How familiar are you with EU consumer laws and regulations?
Not very, you? I live in Australia a country with perhaps some of the strictest consumer law in the world. The Australian ACCC is the only reason STEAM offer a refund for games.
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33 minutes ago, Creator said:
Haven't checked in a long time, but you should be able to check on the territory unit itself. That said, the other indicator would be how long until taxes are due, which is currently 3 days unless a change was snuck in during a small patch. So that + 4 days.Thanks, I tried looking at the unit and right clicking various options but could not see the cooldown. I am not the most observant person in the world so I probably just missed it. Funny thing with the taxes. If we just put the territory down it seems to give us a week but as soon as we put anything on it it changes to 3 days. So, maybe they did actually think about this and I got heated over nothing.
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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:
So in other words NQ learned nothing from 0.23?
You cannot release a feature on a live MMO server just because it is done, when it is balanced for and dependents on other unfinished features that are going to be added later at some stage.
You can if its alpha
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6 hours ago, Creator said:
I will be taking an extended and potentially permanent break from DU.
If you see me log in, it will be to kick (calibrate) mining units, post a haul mission, and sell things so I don't lose tiles.
It is clear the developers don't respect the players or their time, and if the tax situation doesn't get fixed with the falling ore prices, no point in owning tiles to earn a little more than break even.
Also Sanctuary sucks...
( will be placing everything of value on HQ tiles to ensure no one scalps my stuff.)I do not blame you. I came back a couple of weeks ago after a 9 month break and I'm still trying to decide whether or not I wasted my money. I'm treating the current situation as a challenge and see where that takes me. When you say that the developers dont respect our time I agree. I dont think its personal. They have a job to do, which is implement their vision of the game. The big problem they made for them selves (that really causes all the problems) was declaring beta. They should have just launched but left it as alpha, because, well it is plainly alpha, I'm pretty sure the devs know its alpha and they are just treating us players the same way they would normally treat alpha players. Its just that our expectations are that the game is beta, because, they told us it was beta.
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I kinda see where your coming from, it seems you thinking about the game in its current state which is very, very far from completition. I suppose the intention (probably the original intention) is that one day orgs will fight for ownership of planets and so, the only players able to live their will be players from the controlling org. When you think about it what did players with bases on Jago think was going to happen to them when territory warfare began and the planet was no longer a safe zone. Now for somebody like Markee Dragon well he might have had a chance with one of the biggest orgs in the game but lone players?
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Could you please tell us with some explanation, what you believe is the biggest success of the Demeter patch and what you think is the biggest failure of the Demeter patch.
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4 hours ago, Creator said:
7 days
Thank you
Additional question
Is there any way to tell how long we have left on cool down?
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1 statement and 1question
Statement: Its a bit rich charging me 500,000 to put down a TU, then 3 days later charging me 1,000,000 tax when all I want to do is remove the TU I placed in the wrong location but I cant due to cooling off. I guess I'll just abandon the units but it sucks.
Question: How long is the current cooling off period for a TU. I think its a week but not sure?
DEVBLOG: TERRITORY UPKEEP - Discussion Thread
in General Discussions
Posted
Yeah, I did a video on Mu and calibration etc and my conclusion on calibration is that it is a slot machine (pokies). It gives the illusion of skill and choice but really its mostly luck. Slot machines (I believe) return about 75% of the money you put in. Thats enough for most people to feel like they are winning and their choices matter. I would not be at all surprised if 100% calibration is achieved in about 75% of cases. Its clever, if it were skill based we would simply do the same thing every time for the 100% guaranteed skill calibration. The system they came up with helps keep players engaged. Which is what gambling is all about. That said, I'm not saying its good game play at all.