Resources required for ships

[Ripper]

I've been thinking about variables that are required for space travel.  For any vehicular travel for that matter.

 

Here's what I currently have:

 

Power

Fuel

Data

Heat

Ammunition

Health

Mass

 

I'm also interested in any other suggestions that I may not have though of.

 

So lets go over each of these.

 

Power - specifically electrical power will need to be provided by a battery, reactor, or generator of some sort.

Fuel - We already know fuel is a thing. Nyzaltar has indicated it would be used when traveling between star systems.

Data -  We know DPUs are in use.  The question here is how are elements connected, and is there a bandwidth cap.

Heat - Heat is a problem in space.  Its not easy to get rid of in a vacuum.  Possibly some sort of radiator or disposable heat sink

Ammunition - A given, whether its a laser pulling electrical power, or a rail gun with physical rounds.

Health - Every item will have some sort of health  whether its something like glass, or heavy armor

Mass - We know that some sort of newtonian physics will be used, but a foundational element of that is Mass.  I would expect a larger ship to be harder to accelerate than a single seated fighter.

 

 

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

 

Nyzaltar, is it too early to get confirmation of these variables?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[DevisDevine]

Armor/shielding. Somewhat health but also will we need protection from harsh environment? I believe it was said that temperature was not planned for now.

 

Oxygen: supply/ generation

 

You said fuel, but I would specify thrust and controls. Will there be gyros or hourly thruster controlled rotation.

 

Navigation. How will you know where you are out there.

[Ripper]

I would be disappointed to find out weapons don't overheat. 

 

Oxygen is interesting.  Some sort of life support.

 

You're right about vectors (thrust and controls)

 

Some sort of nav display would also be needed, but I would think thats an element not a depletable resource or variable.

[DevisDevine]

So are you only concerned with depletable resources that would run out or buildup like heat that would hinder your ability to fly?

 

I would like to see some sort of player made coordinate system, although most won't like it.

The ark ship always give you a beacon home but you have to drop beacons to allow a 3D coordinate system to be determined. In that way it would be a variable, not just data that is there.

[Ripper]

Yeah,

 

At the moment, I'm speculating upon the actual game variables.

 

There are plenty of threads on building different constructs and different elements. 

 

This thread is more about figuring out WHAT we have available at our disposal to script with.

[DevisDevine]

Ok so specifically scriptable objects involved with space flight.

 

Well if we has TX/RX commands and our own nav beacons then navigation would be one regardless it is assumed we will have some sort of coordinate system, with a sensor to detect your current location and an input destination. You can script an auto pilot.

 

Pure elements that should be controlled by a DPU and thus are scriptable include turrets, sensors, thrusters, control console, and generators.these are ones I know will exist in some form.

 

Others I would expect to see are communications, shielding, mechanical components control (or pistons and rotors), camera/displays, fabricators, mining drills, and fixed weaponry.

 

Is that more in line with what you are looking for?

[norab7]

Isn't that two lists merged into one? I'm just looking at the difference of the items you have listed. There are two distinct purposes or reasons for each.

 

Fuel, Ammunitions is like a material or object that you store in a container like stone, iron, water, dirt ect.

Heat, Data, Health are like variables or outputs that can be read or interacted with.

 

Unless I'm misinterpreting it you've got, Materials/Objects and Variables/Output, could probably push for a third list of Actions that can be applied to Objects to get the Output.

 

You would use Materials with an Action to Generate an Output.. (Materials + Action = Output).

 

You put Fuel in a generator(Burn) to get Power (Fuel + Burn = Power)... 

 

Then you have different types of objects, or types of fuel in this case and different types of Actions that can be placed upon them, So you could have Coal + Burn, or Water + Movement (HydroGenerator).

 

Maybe I'm over complicating things here but for the Materials/Objects you could have anything:

 

Materials (Burn, Chop, Slice, Place...)

-Wood

-Iron

-Stone

-Dirt

 

Fuels (Burn, Combine, Split, Store...)

-Petrol 

-Gas

-Solar

-Water

 

Ammunitions (Shoot, Combine, Store, Take Apart...)

-Bullets

-Shots

-Arrows

-Lasers

-Battery Charge (Amount of power stored in a battery)

 

Different Outputs that could be read:

 

Heat

-Value

-Type

-Maximum

-Minimum

 

Friction

-Acting Upon

-Value

-Strength

 

Gravity

-Strength

-Direction

-Range

-Diameter

 

Damage

-Type

-Amount

-Direction

 

Player

-Health

-Shields

-Body Part (For specific location damage, you could Limp maybe if shot in the leg)

 

Power

-Charge

-Capacity

-Flow Rate

-Voltage

-Amps

-Flow Type (Like AC or DC but more Futuristic you could have new types)

 

Shield

-Direction

-Power

-Capacity

-Protection Type (Phasers, Laser or Bullet protective properties)

 

Radio

-Type

-Strength

-Range

-Frequency

 

GPS

-Location

-Velocity

-Distance

-Speed

-Direction

 

 

This kind of the list you were looking for I have plenty more to list if you want them ?

 

nora,

[Ripper]

Does EVERY thread have to be about elements?

 

This thread was SUPPOSED to be about the game logic.

[Ripper]

Thanks Nora. Nice list.

[norab7]

Does EVERY thread have to be about elements?

 

This thread was SUPPOSED to be about the game logic.

 

 

Thanks Nora. Nice list.

 

I'm confused if they are both for me? ... It's like saying "YOU ARE BAD MAN...... Have a lolly"....

[Ripper]

You are a bad man.... 

[KlatuSatori]

It might be useful to look at what subsystems real spacecraft have.

 

Structures and Mechanisms

Obviously needed for building.  Mechanisms aren't essential but useful in some cases, like docking.  NQ have mentioned moving parts, so if they've implemented them then they are surely controllable with a DPU.

 

Thermal Control Subsystem

Ambient temperature of the environment isn't going to be implemented but that doesn't mean there won't be overheating of powered constructs when they're left for too long or stressed.

 

Communication Subsystem

Probably not needed because teamspeak.  On the other hand remote communication with a receiver could be very cool, as DevisDevine points out.  Actually, maybe a comms system could also allow communication with nearby entities who you don't know, but it depends on what the in-game chat system will be like.

 

Propulsion Subsystem

Already confirmed.  Is fuel confirmed? Didn't think it was but I might have missed it.  Definitely lots of scripting potential here for auto-piloting and such.

 

Attitude Control Subsystem

Hopefully this will be included if the spaceflight model is some kind of Newtonian physics.  Lots of scripting potential for performing preset manoeuvres.

 

Power Subsystem

Already confirmed.  Whether diverting power to different systems to give them a boost or priority will be a thing, I don't know, but it would be really cool.  You could have Star Trek style "Red Alert" and "Yellow Alert" modes amongst others.

 

Command and Data Handling Subsystem

As Ripper says, there are DPUs but will it be necessary to have some kind of data storage device for stuff like exploration data?  Also, there might be some interesting architecture options here.  A central DPU that controls everything, or a decentralised system where each subsystem does its own thing, or an event driven architecture, and many more that I need to read up about...

 

Life Support

I don't think this will be implemented as all construct environments will be safe, unless that's changed.

 

 

Other things I can think of:

 

Anti-gravity Device

Depends on whether this will be automatic for construct environments. Might be cool to have the option to not include one, or to be able to turn it off. There's another recent thread that discusses this.  https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/528-zero-g-ship-interior/

 

Weapons

Projectiles, missiles, particle beams, etc, etc.  Same scripting options here as with any weapons, though you might be able to tie it in with manoeuvres mentioned above.  Ultimately though, I think manning guns will be the best option by far.  Scripting might useful for reloading in some instances or at least helping with it.

 

Defences

Shields, armour, cloaking devices, etc, etc.  Hard to say what kind of stuff you could do here as we have virtually zero info.

 

Sensors

I can imagine a whole vast array of sensing equipment.  Planetary mapping, territorial resource scanning, asteroid field composition scans, anti-cloaking scanners, ship scanners, etc.  Again, hard to say what can be done here.

 

Navigation

This was mentioned by DevisDevine and by NQ a while back.  Not really sure what this would be like.

 

FTL Drive

Again, hard to say what kind of stuff can be done here without knowing anything about the mechanics.

 

 

[Ripper]

Maybe this is too complex.

 

What is required to be plugged into a thruster DPU slot for it to function?

 

Does it need power from a battery or reactor?

Does it need fuel?

Does it need to be attached to a control unit?

Does it need to be attached to a cooling unit?

What is its "health" and how does this affect performance (loss of thrust, more fuel, power, or heat)?

[KlatuSatori]

Started that earlier and only just read the other posts... sorry Ripper I may have missed the point too

[Ripper]

No problem.  I'm just trying to see things from a granular level.

 

BTW... Nyzaltar said fuel WOULD be a factor with FTL travel between star systems.

 

Oh, and I appreciate the effort you put into that post.

[Dreamstar]

I've been thinking about variables that are required for space travel.  For any vehicular travel for that matter.

 

...

 

The feeling I have of the developers is such that, many mechanics will be behind the scenes.

 

Heat dispersion will probably just be a soft stat. If a laser weapon worked in such a way that it was hot. I assume they will just make its re-fire time longer. and not make you think about the actual heat it produces.

If you have a way to over-ride and fire faster then instead of a heat stat, you probably will just take component damage would be my guess.

If such a module like a heat sink existed, I assume it would not collect heat per say, but that you need a Heat Sink module to counter act the side effects of rapid fire, or whatever.

 

I don't believe they are trying to implement specific mini games out of us routing power, heat, and other systems ourselves. Only balancing the Pro's and Con's of modules.

 

----

The dev team hasn't yet talked about it, but consider that we have the technology behind the KadPak or whatever they're calling it now days. You know, you can store much larger things into a smaller space.

So in terms of storage, ammo, energy, or otherwise. I believe we can expect the modules to be significantly smaller than we would expect them to be.

So long as, technically speaking, the interface where ammo, energy, or fuel would exit is the proper size in our dimension. I don't think it will be an all inclusive technology, but for storage I assume its the direction they will take.

 

Everything involved with the ship will probably have a mass statistic. I dont know how they will determine the center of mass on the ships, or if they care to do so. I assume everything will contribute to the tonnage of the ship. and From there, a rough calculation on what kind or class of ship it is will be made.

 

---

When I think of fuel in the game, i think of it more for rockets, and for planet based vehichles.

As far as spaceships are concerned. I Believe that various reactor types, maybe they need fuel, or maybe the "fuel" is just apart of the building process and they never run out after that. Not sure how in depth they will make it.

I assume that those reactors will be able to power everything.

 

However I believe its intended for individual modules to be able to be targeted and destroyed. So there may be redundant and backup generators or battery systems.

 

So In regards to object health, I assume that the voxels you build ships out of will have defensive properties. Like Kinetic resistance, and a set amount of HP.

 

Someone said at one point that they wanted to implement realistic pressure, but its Far to complex for an mmo environment. For them to do that, the game would have to revolve around that mechanic essentially. However I believe they said that making a difference between an area with atmosphere and an area without in inside a ship was something they would consider.

[Ripper]

Excellent Post!

[KlatuSatori]

Maybe this is too complex.

 

What is required to be plugged into a thruster DPU slot for it to function?

 

Does it need power from a battery or reactor?

Does it need fuel?

Does it need to be attached to a control unit?

Does it need to be attached to a cooling unit?

What is its "health" and how does this affect performance (loss of thrust, more fuel, power, or heat)?

 

 

At absolute minimum functionality a thruster might not need anything other than an attached power source to work.  But it depends on how power is supplied to units that need power... it might require a control unit.

 

So, more speculation but:

 

If thruster fuel is required, it is supplied by a fuel tank.

If power is required, it is supplied by a power source.

If the power source requires fuel then supplied by the same or a different fuel tank.

If overheating of elements is a thing, a coolant system should be attached to each element that might overheat.

In addition you'll want a sensing device to check the amount of fuel left, unless this functionality is provided by the tank itself.

Sensing devices to check the temperature of the elements.

 

I would guess that everything there is an element and has a DPU, so throw in a Control Unit with some functions that:

 

- listen for fuel below a certain capacity and react - maybe provide visual and/or audio cues to a HUD

- listen for temperature above a certain level and react - provide info as above, or automatically reduce speed in order to allow the elements to cool down, or increase coolant power or coolant levels if available

- listen for damage/health above/below certain levels and provide HUD feedback, or call defense system functions to increase power to shielding in that area

- functions for increasing/decreasing thrust and setting thrust levels

- functions for increasing and decreasing power/fuel supplied to the thruster in order to increase performance or divert power to other systems that need it more

- auto functions that make the above decisions themselves based on simple logic - maybe not the best option but if you're shorthanded or in a tight spot and need to focus attention elsewhere it could be useful.

[KlatuSatori]

Lots of agreement from me on Saffi's post.  That is exactly how I think overheating will be implemented assuming it is.  And the stuff on fuel as well - there might be some types of thruster that require a fuel source, others that only need a power source.  Then there's fuel for power sources - probably the same again here?

 

The atmospheric pressure and temperature thing was something I asked about a long while back.  This was the answer:

 

 

Implementing space void as a mortal environment is something we’re thinking of.

 

But it will remain quite basic at the beginning.

There will be three environment types: Planet Atmosphere, Construct Environment and Space Void.

When your character is in one of the two first environments, he will be safe.

If for some reason he ends up in Space Void, there are two possibilities:

– If he is wearing a space suit, he’ll still be safe.

– If not, this will mean instant death for him.

Physical properties like pressure or atmosphere dilution when a breach is done in a Spaceship Hull won’t be implemented, at least not for now.

We might develop this in the long run if we think it is feasible (remember that we plan to handle large-scale battles. And such mechanics are really resource-greedy in terms of calculation. This could definitely be a feature for a single player game. But we still need to test if that can be done for a MMO at a reasonable cost).

 

[TheRealBeowulf]

Hi!

 

Just to make sure I get that right:

"structure environments are always safe" - does that really mean that a hull breach wouldn't be a serious problem?

 

Maybe it's just me, but in my opinion this could feel real odd, especially on multi-crew ships...

 

I really like how the devs encourage people to build constructs like the enterprise, script them via LUA and even have specialised crew members like weapon officers and engineers - and then such a basic mechanic like oxygen and life support isn't going to be implemented at all? Or just not in the alpha?

 

I understand that there are some difficulties when it comes to code and resources, but for a space game - especially for such an ambitious project - at least some kind of basic life support and oxygen mechanic on the ships should be a thing.

 

Maybe a basic mechanic like the base life support in Subnautica could be used - when there is no power, life support fails and you only have the oxygen stored in your suit...

 

The life support system itself could consist of simple parts, like an oxygen tank, pipes and air vents.

The only things the game would have to check is

- is the system properly connected?

- is there enough oxygen in the tank?

- is there a breach (that's actually the point where I have no idea how difficult this would be as code...)?

If everything is ok, then the room has atmosphere. The amount of oxygen used over time could simply depend on the number of players that are on the ship.

 

Also, in my opinion a hull breach definitely should evacuate the room where the breach is located.

Next thing: airlocks are usually a thing on spaceships...

 

If it uses to much calculation-power, maybe longer update-time intervals could help? Only checking for breaches an valid life support every second or two may be still enough in the heat of the battle.

 

I don't want to complain too much, and I know that at this point the game is still very far from release and a lot might still be changed till then - but I'm really curious about those mechanics, and I bet a lot of space nerds feel the same

 

I would be glad to hear more about this in the future (the sooner, the better )

[DevisDevine]

Hi!

 

Just to make sure I get that right:

"structure environments are always safe" - does that really mean that a hull breach wouldn't be a serious problem?

 

Maybe it's just me, but in my opinion this could feel real odd, especially on multi-crew ships...

 

I really like how the devs encourage people to build constructs like the enterprise, script them via LUA and even have specialised crew members like weapon officers and engineers - and then such a basic mechanic like oxygen and life support isn't going to be implemented at all? Or just not in the alpha?

 

I understand that there are some difficulties when it comes to code and resources, but for a space game - especially for such an ambitious project - at least some kind of basic life support and oxygen mechanic on the ships should be a thing.

 

Maybe a basic mechanic like the base life support in Subnautica could be used - when there is no power, life support fails and you only have the oxygen stored in your suit...

 

The life support system itself could consist of simple parts, like an oxygen tank, pipes and air vents.

The only things the game would have to check is

- is the system properly connected?

- is there enough oxygen in the tank?

- is there a breach (that's actually the point where I have no idea how difficult this would be as code...)?

If everything is ok, then the room has atmosphere. The amount of oxygen used over time could simply depend on the number of players that are on the ship.

 

Also, in my opinion a hull breach definitely should evacuate the room where the breach is located.

Next thing: airlocks are usually a thing on spaceships...

 

If it uses to much calculation-power, maybe longer update-time intervals could help? Only checking for breaches an valid life support every second or two may be still enough in the heat of the battle.

 

I don't want to complain too much, and I know that at this point the game is still very far from release and a lot might still be changed till then - but I'm really curious about those mechanics, and I bet a lot of space nerds feel the same

 

I would be glad to hear more about this in the future (the sooner, the better )

 

There have been a few post specifically on Life support and environmental conditions. The reasoning against it from the Devs is the resource cost to determine an enclosed space for those enviroments. Sure it can be done, but on a game this scale every bit of resource usage matters. 

[TheRealBeowulf]

I am aware of the problem with resources.

 

I'm not saying that it has to be something quite realistic like im Space Engineers, where the amount of oxygen is calculated for every room, and a breach causes some kind of wind that is able to suck objects into Space...

 

What I mean is a very basic system, like having a specific amount of oxygen in a tank, and then calculating how many players are on board and how fast oxygen is depleted.

 

When it comes to coding, I must admit that I have almost no idea of how difficult this would be to handle. But if they really want to implement things like potentially huge LUA-script-constructs and a flight behavior actually depending on the placement of engines, is it really that much more complicated to add a basic oxygen mechanic?

 

Nyzaltar stated in an earlier post on the dev blog (couldn't find the link, but I definitely read something like that) that he likes the idea of having Engineers on multi-crew ships racing to repair hull breaches in battle - so what's the point of doing this, when it's not an issue for life support systems (okay, the breach could also make internal systems like reactors vulnerable to following hits, that would definitely be a good reason to run too )?

 

Maybe someone with a better understanding of coding and voxel-environments could answer this question to me: is it that hard to detect if a room on the ship is completely enclosed, or has a hole/breach?

Maybe "atmosphere" in rooms could consist of invisible, non-solid voxel-cubes, which are deleted if they get in direct contact with the void in space?

 

This is really not meant to be an offense, I'm just wondering if there is really no way to make this possible without using too much resources.

 

If I got the devs right, they want a very high level of immersion. It's just that in my opinion, life support and oxygen management in a game that heavily focuses on spacecraft are something crucial, that shouldn't be put completely aside...

 

I don't know if it's just me thinking like this, but in my opinion, having not even basic oxygen mechanics on a spacecraft could influence the gameplay experience and immersion in a negative way... And that would be a bit sad, because almost everything else about the game sounds really awesome.