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Antioch

Shields

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Shields are a given.  There will need to be two types of shielding - physical and E/M.  The physical shielding will be the physical hit points of the craft, and the E/M shielding will be created by a shield generator.  Different types of weapons will affect shields differently - that's where the devs need to make some sort of semi-future realistic sci-fi decisions on how they work.  

 

Here's a quick example of how this could be accomplished:

Particle accelerators (guns)                 Low Tech                Cheap           Short Range          Good against E/M shields bad against physical shielding

Missiles                                                Medium Tech          Expensive     Long Range           Average against both physical and E/M shielding

Laser                                                    High Tech               Cheap           Short Range          Good against Physical shields, bad against E/M shielding

Plasma weapons                                  High tech                Expensive     Long Range           Good against both E/M and Physical shielding

 

The short range weapons could act as point defense against long range weapons as well.  Again the guns could be good against missiles and lasers good against plasma weapons.

 

Additionally Ion weapons can be used to take out E/m shields for a period of time as well.

 

I like the sound of that Jett  :D the different shield types would allow for a nice variety of weapons, as you've highlighted, and give people the option on which shield to use since both would have their pros and cons. 

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Refer to good sir Archer's post on why these shields can't work. He's a rocket scientist and showed me the error of my ways through unmitigated facts on many occasions. The devs aim for a realistic type of shields (if any), that would be raw force fields, which would only scale by power cores given the LUA script DPUs will need to be wired in a proper fashion for the scripts to work and shields, would not be an exception.

I've read Archers comments and nothing of what he says contradicts my suggestions on how the game mechanics could work except to say that in the real world E/M shields can't be used to stop physical weapons.  Extrapolating the development of E/M shielding and weapons into an futuristic (sci-fi) universe, what I'm suggesting is in general is that physical weapons easily penetrate E/M shielding to do physical damage, and E/M weapons are stopped by E/M shielding but those shields are weakened by absorbing the energy and also do heat damage to physical shields.

 

There's nothing there that's inconsistent with what one might expect from future (sci-fi) weaponry and shields.  Furthermore, it's a standard that is used in lots of 4x games so it's a game mechanic that will be familiar and logical to many players.

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@Jett_Quasar

There's a difference in my opinion between having counterplay and having clanky counterplay. Having a multitude of shields will send a message to everyone that a particular ship has an exact type of defense, therefore creating so much of a clustertruck of mechanics, taactics and gameplays, that the game will become EVE 2.0 as of the difficulty of skill entry. I can't see anyone here that would like to opt for such a complicated method of dealing with shields.


On a side-note, the only reasonable defense against lasers is a reflective surface for deflection, against particle/plsma is an ElecrtoMAgnetic shield, while ballistics would still need to be met with armor. And last I've checked, the more reflective a surface is (and I do mean reflective, not some crhome paintjob that can be scrapped off with sand, let alone a laser) is easily shattered. Not to mention nobody wants to look like how Deadpool called Colossus in the Deadpool movie.

A force-field would negate all that, possibly by having a certain depletion ratio against two different types of damage, with Plasma acting as a combination, since it would need metallic carriers to transport the plasma in their own electromagnetic bubble, therefore keeping the defense up to the good ol' saying " the best defense is a good offense " , and making ships have to sacrifice their power supply on shields or go all in for an offense, set weapons to maximum to deliver a crippling blow. Combat is all about making your enemy do the wrong move, and this system is all about tactics and foresight.


But that's my opinion. I do like mental challenge in combat and not arbitrary rules. My enemy can play chicken, having less power than me and call a bluff I might fall for. That's a gameplay aspect your shields can't emulate, If they have only an EM field I'll go in and shatter them with turrets, while their own guns won't even phase me.

 

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@Jett_Quasar

 

There's a difference in my opinion between having counterplay and having clanky counterplay. Having a multitude of shields will send a message to everyone that a particular ship has an exact type of defense, therefore creating so much of a clustertruck of mechanics, taactics and gameplays, that the game will become EVE 2.0 as of the difficulty of skill entry. I can't see anyone here that would like to opt for such a complicated method of dealing with shields.

 

 

On a side-note, the only reasonable defense against lasers is a reflective surface for deflection, against particle/plsma is an ElecrtoMAgnetic shield, while ballistics would still need to be met with armor. And last I've checked, the more reflective a surface is (and I do mean reflective, not some crhome paintjob that can be scrapped off with sand, let alone a laser) is easily shattered. Not to mention nobody wants to look like how Deadpool called Colossus in the Deadpool movie.

 

A force-field would negate all that, possibly by having a certain depletion ratio against two different types of damage, with Plasma acting as a combination, since it would need metallic carriers to transport the plasma in their own electromagnetic bubble, therefore keeping the defense up to the good ol' saying " the best defense is a good offense " , and making ships have to sacrifice their power supply on shields or go all in for an offense, set weapons to maximum to deliver a crippling blow. Combat is all about making your enemy do the wrong move, and this system is all about tactics and foresight.

 

 

But that's my opinion. I do like mental challenge in combat and not arbitrary rules. My enemy can play chicken, having less power than me and call a bluff I might fall for. That's a gameplay aspect your shields can't emulate, If they have only an EM field I'll go in and shatter them with turrets, while their own guns won't even phase me.

 

While I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion, I mus respectfully disagree with yours.  Here's why:

 

This is an MMO game.  That means you want fleets of craft piloted by large numbers of players going at it mostly in space combat.  In order for there to be some semblance of strategy there needs to be complexity in how offensive and defensive systems work.  Otherwise the game will be populated with one ship design covered with huge shields and bristling with the heaviest weapons.  This is not conducive to long-term gameplay - the community will quickly tire of repetitive battles and people will simply stop engaging.

 

In fact this is why most sci-fi are set up with this sort of offensive/counteroffensive strategy.  Take a look at Fractured Space for example: there are 5 different classes of ship, each with a different strategy for winning and each having a distinct area of weakness that can be exploited by the opposing team.  And that game is entirely composed of space battles. 

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While I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion, I mus respectfully disagree with yours.  Here's why:

 

This is an MMO game.  That means you want fleets of craft piloted by large numbers of players going at it mostly in space combat.  In order for there to be some semblance of strategy there needs to be complexity in how offensive and defensive systems work.  Otherwise the game will be populated with one ship design covered with huge shields and bristling with the heaviest weapons.  This is not conducive to long-term gameplay - the community will quickly tire of repetitive battles and people will simply stop engaging.

 

In fact this is why most sci-fi are set up with this sort of offensive/counteroffensive strategy.  Take a look at Fractured Space for example: there are 5 different classes of ship, each with a different strategy for winning and each having a distinct area of weakness that can be exploited by the opposing team.  And that game is entirely composed of space battles. 

THere is. The target and lock-on system is enabling a firing-run combat to take place between fleets. That means people will have to organise their target groups down to squadrons, with different ship classes operating different weaponries accordingly.

 

A battlecruiser class ship is meant for mobility and offense, being the "berserker" of the ship classes. But a battleship is much larger and is meant to be the "vanguard" of a fleet. Ships head of a firing run will be the guys to take the hard brand of any long range lock-on, while the guys tailing them taking lesser damage. That requires pre-planning the attack, working with people in training to organise a sweet, samurai-like, firing run, crippling your enemies, or even better, creating an infamous "pincer" formation, where the faster ships occupy the extendions of a formation in a line, then slowly closing, encyrcling a formation of enemy ships from all sides and pummeling them to dust.

 

Those tactics require tactical thinking, require pre-planning, something the devs sell the PvP onto. Having differnt shields won't make such gameplay viable for large scale combats or even small ones, as each ship would have to optimise and be made easy targets.

 

Batttleships go down as paper if they are left to poor shield choice, while in my example, the battleships can excel at their task of taking the pummeling for their comrades in action. Possibly adding a skill from the skill trees that can enable a battleship to attract missiles meant for another, wounded ship, with a smaller reactors and thus, weaker shields. The game is an MMORPG after all, let the tanks be better at their jobs :) . I for once, want a system like that. It creates situations were strangers have to learn to operate in fine tuning with each other and as we all know, teamwork builds friendships.

 

 

You could have your small time destroyer class ship, being a dagger to a battleship's side, taking the hits for you, while you reach around and deliver a gutting blow on the enemy with your weapon of choice. You couldn't do that if the enemy is simply, arbitrarily even, got a shield that negates your small destoyers weaponry. You got to think of the ffact that new players might not have your level of access, or in-game economic wealth, thus, weaker weaponry. You need to think in a long-term scale on that, which force-fields enable, as a battleship dead-set on destroying an enemy battleship would go full on attack, leaving them for a stab from your destroyer class ship.

 

 

And for the record, I am the kind of guy going for tanks on any MMO. I like to be a meatbag taking the punches. I'm a masochist like that, and last I've checked, when you make tanking a chore and complex to the point of "who cares", people don't opt for the job as a choice, but as a forced duty from a guild/organisation/alliance.

 

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Refer to good sir Archer's post on why these shields can't work. He's a rocket scientist and showed me the error of my ways through unmitigated facts on many occasions. The devs aim for a realistic type of shields (if any), that would be raw force fields, which would only scale by power cores given the LUA script DPUs will need to be wired in a proper fashion for the scripts to work and shields, would not be an exception.

 

I'm not sure where the "realistic" tech focus is coming from, a lot of things I've seen in gameplay videos and dev blogs seem to contradict that.  Artificial gravity is pretty much confirmed, the deck orientation of the large spacecraft we've seen indicates that the crew can ignore inertial effects and the sample small craft they show in videos behaves nothing like a plausible aircraft or spacecraft.  It can take off vertically with no appropriately oriented propulsion system, it maneuvers almost like an aircraft once in space and it completely disregards orbital mechanics.  They do have some elements of hard scifi in general (I was particularly impressed by their reason for abandoning Earth; other stories like to use asteroids or climate change, problems with much easier solutions than an interstellar evacuation, but there isn't much you can do about an incoming neutron star and it is indeed something you could see coming centuries in advance) but overall the devs do not seem to be particularly focused on sticking to plausible technology.  My version of shields is no more or less plausible than Star Trek shields. I might have defined the shield's behavior and properties more clearly than Star Trek but the actual mechanism for producing the shield is still entirely fictional.

 

Another thing, this version doesn't have a specific flicker rate or "frequency" for a saboteur to identify and steal.  The shield only flickers on in response to an incoming projectile, not at some fixed rate.  If you throw a single shot at it then it will flicker on once, if you throw 20 rounds per second it will flicker at 20 Hz and if you fire a three second laser burst at it then it will turn on and stay on continuously for three seconds (all assuming it has enough energy of course).

 

 

Weapons vs Shields Breakdown

 

This sort of system could be interesting, though personally I would rank particle beams well above lasers in terms of tech level and potential effects while placing kinetic weapons in their place.  I would also suggest using plasma as a short range weapon, kinetic weapons ranging across the scale depending on their muzzle velocity and laser range scaling based on their primary mirror diameter.  Of course the last point assumes that this game's laser design is remotely plausible.

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The game is an MMORPG after all, let the tanks be better at their jobs :) .

 

Um where did you see that? Everything I have read so far has said MMO. This will not be WoW 2.0! And I can Guarantee you that the game is going to be everyone build the biggest ship with the most guns. There is not going to be any thing past that.

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Um where did you see that? Everything I have read so far has said MMO. This will not be WoW 2.0! And I can Guarantee you that the game is going to be everyone build the biggest ship with the most guns. There is not going to be any thing past that.

Indeed, their main page is misleading then.

http://www.dualthegame.com/

 

You heard that crack? It was a fact, hitting you right on the face.

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Indeed, their main page is misleading then.

http://www.dualthegame.com/

 

You heard that crack? It was a fact, hitting you right on the face.

 

Wow i need to learn to read my bad lol, but the rest is still true. As much as we all do not want this to happen it will.

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Wow i need to learn to read my bad lol, but the rest is still true. As much as we all do not want this to happen it will.

Yes, I see your valid arguement there. But you got to consider that an organisation with access to resources would not hand out large battleships like that to all players. Think of it as the navy in real life, you don't give a fresh graduate of the naval academy a position to drive a frigate. They start from smaller ships and as their ranks rises, so do their responsibilities. You've seen that in WoW as well, new recruits in a guild being given the On-Farm bosses to fight, but when progression comes in, the real veterans step in. It's a principle many people follow for MMO organisations and while it's unfair for the recruit, it creates loyalties where they need to be. Hard work earns you respect after all. 

 

 

Plus, organisations will use a kill-switch for ships that go rogue in combat. I can make sure of that in LUA scripts. And we all know paranoia in EVE is real, let alone in Dual Universe organisations.

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Yes, I see your valid arguement there. But you got to consider that an organisation with access to resources would not hand out large battleships like that to all players. Think of it as the navy in real life, you don't give a fresh graduate of the naval academy a position to drive a frigate. They start from smaller ships and as their ranks rises, so do their responsibilities. You've seen that in WoW as well, new recruits in a guild being given the On-Farm bosses to fight, but when progression comes in, the real veterans step in. It's a principle many people follow for MMO organisations and while it's unfair for the recruit, it creates loyalties where they need to be. Hard work earns you respect after all. 

 

 

Plus, organisations will use a kill-switch for ships that go rogue in combat. I can make sure of that in LUA scripts. And we all know paranoia in EVE is real, let alone in Dual Universe organisations.

 

Trust me i know the paranoia in eve is beyond real. ever heard of Boob heads? the corp in test that had around 50-60 billion isk stolen by one of the most trusted directors?

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Trust me i know the paranoia in eve is beyond real. ever heard of Boob heads? the corp in test that had around 50-60 billion isk stolen by one of the most trusted directors?

Yes. I also heard of the Fountain War and how the N3 lost 200 systems from a traitor disbanding the org. I was also watching live the butcher fiest that was B-R5RB from one of my friends piloting a dreadnought. That colossal misclick was met with not so much happy erm... verbal exchanges in their teamspeak. Was the guy actually a traitor anyway? Cause the curses went flying on that front for 5 hours into the bloodbath.

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I quit eve just before test collapsed. But yes i know the extream paranoia that is eve (after Isa took everything everyone had there rights revoked unless you lived down the road from ken) and in that regards this will become Eve 2.0, but from the sounds of it their rights system will be much more elegant then eve's (i hope).

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I'm not sure there is a way to stop people from within an organization from stabbing you in the back when you've put your trust in them.  The only recourse I think is within the game - that's where the politics comes in...

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I'm not sure there is a way to stop people from within an organization from stabbing you in the back when you've put your trust in them.  The only recourse I think is within the game - that's where the politics comes in...

 

There will always be spy and as we said in eve "Everyone is a spy" and if you deny being a spy then you are a spy.

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I'm not sure there is a way to stop people from within an organization from stabbing you in the back when you've put your trust in them.  The only recourse I think is within the game - that's where the politics comes in...

It's called an HQ override. Trust me, it can be a part of a fleet's capital ship. A guy goes rogue? Shut his ship down. A spy is in your midst? Freeze his bank account and seize all his/her assets in the game, as your organisation is the one he saves his money into to gain your trust.

 

 

Gotta start thinking like a pro(grammer) :P

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