Anaximander
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Posts posted by Anaximander
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6 hours ago, 0something0 said:
what do you mean this isn't a shooter when it comes to ship to ship battles
Projectiles are not simulated, aka, you don't hit shoot and a 3D Mesh bullet spawns, which travels and if it collides it causes damage.
That's such a load DU servers would crash given the way they operate.
DU is built on a statistics model that adheres to action-prediction. What does that mean? You have statistical chances of shots causing daamge, which is a thing the Devs liked from EVE's model, which is, incidentally, REALISTIC. The very word "problem" in math, came from the greeks who used math to figure out how to increase a catapult's reach, problem meaning "before the thrown projectile". And ships require firing solutions before any shots, modern day battleships fight at 30Km distance, not 100 meters like in Star Shitizen.[Following Example uses simple nubmers to demonstrate, not to be taken on face value]
So, if your ship orbited my ship at 62.84 Km distance, and I start orbitting you as well at that distance and we both orbit at an angular velocity of 174.5 meters per second, and then we both start shooting at each other, what would go down?
Well, this is where weapon tracking takes place. I would use Radians at this point, but I don't think you guys would understand shit, so let's keep it in degree for simplicitiy's sake. Also, Transversals, we'll get to them later.
Weapons have mass that is emulated via "weapon tracking" the speed at which your turrets turn to face the enemy, which for your ship is 1 degree per second (really big ships, they take forever to turn) and my turrets got 0.5 degrees of turn.
At 62.84 Km range of orbit, the degree of your ship's guns trackign equates to a target moving at 174.5 meters per seconds,. You may think "yey, so i hit you?"
No. We both both move at 174.5 meters per second, yes ,your speed throws off YOUR aim as well. My ship has it worse, it's only 1/4 of the total pssed we boh have, so I have a 25% tracking efficiency on you.
Now, the almighty transversals., What are they? The distance between two points. What does that mean?
Your guns have statistics, like "Optimal Range" (the range in which your guns deal optimal damage, no weaknened stae due to inertia). LEt's say your guns are only 30Km in Optimal Range, with a falloff range of damage (half damage range) of 60 Km. My guns have though 60 km Optimal (slower guns to track, means b igger).
So, in an engagement, your guns, even if they "land" shots on me, you deal Falloff Damage (50% damage at its max reach) and then, due to my speed exceeding your tracking sped by 50%, you deal another 50% less damge that I resist - which damage is then mitigated by armor plating resistances or shield resistances or whatever goes on.
But my guns, deal 100% damage, but at 25% tracking efficiecny, they are on the point of barely scratching you, but when they do land, they do hurt.
What changes the battle? Our ships' tanking capability. You CAN make a ship that goes so fast, no tracking is able to keep up with it ,with any short landign dealing very little damge - if not missing entirely.
That's DU's idea of the hit calculations. They explained that on Project Update #21 on Kickstarter.
Is this system "action packed" ??? Yes it is. It's like actual ship warfare, with he mentality of "Hurry up and Wait". Enemy fleet is focusing your ship? GET AL OT OF SPEED in ON DIRECTION. Screw damage, your job is to survive their next breif seconds of focus fire. Then chill out, absorb the battlefield, adapt to the situation.
As for missiles, EVE's missile combat works by "(your ship's signature / Missile Explosion size) * missile explosion time" to determine damge.
IF your ship's signature is only 100 meters, but the explosion of the missile hitting it is 1000 meters (per second) with an explosino lasting 2 second, it means your ship will take 20% damage from the missile (before mitigations).No, smaller missiles can't cause "more damage" to bigger targets, it's capped to 100% damage for the missiles. so, use the proper missile for the proper ship size.
And that CAN work for DU. Missile "paints" an area, then missile damage is "distributed" more the more voxels it affects on its target paint area.
Which more or less means, you won't be one-shotted by some Cruise Missile fired at your frigate - or you might be, depends on the tanking of your frigate. if it's made out of Plastic, it will shatter under any damage
Will this be the combat model of DU 1:1 ratio? Not neccessarily, but it is something that's lightweight on the server and it reinforces the tactical gameplay ship warfare involves. But NQ has demonstrated so far they do got ship cross-sections (signature radius) in the building mode of a ship and is visible on the Dev Diaries, just saying.
On 28/10/2017 at 3:14 AM, DragonShadow said:True, but that doesn't mean such systems can't exist. They would simply operate in the terms of the combat system.
So at the moment based on what they seem to be planning, having anti-missile turrets would reduce the likelihood of missiles hitting the equipped target and play appropriate animations showing the missiles' destruction.
Point Defenses, can work with the EVE model of missiles. When a missile is fired, it's just a "ticking bomb" on the server side until your ship registers damage. In EVE, you can fire an Anti-Missile...err, Missile, which essentially "dispells" that Time-Bomb effect - and provides a cool explosion on the particle effect as it flies.
Having turrets do that work is... not very possible though. Turrets able to hit missiles, means they can hit ships at 300000 Km range
So, Point Defense missiles - yes, they are indeed a good idea -
3 hours ago, DarkHorizon said:
The Aeonian Federation, yes the name has changed and from what I have heard as an outsider, the goal remains the same, an organization of organizations.
I share similar concerns that outside the safe zone that there will be boogymen just on the other side ready to take my stuff, I also realize that until proper markets exist that I won't be worth stealing much from unless I go outside the safe zone.
The way I see it, I can either choose to stay in prison where everything is black and white, strict, mostly controlled and predictable. On the other hand, I can elect to go out into the free and colorful world where the rules are created and enforced by those around you. Of course, we might be an advanced civilization 10000 years in the future but the player-run police don't dabble in pre-crime so some stranger might shoot you and steal your stuff, maybe they'll get caught, maybe not, sort of like the free world in the real world.
I give, maybe it's a terrible analogy, feel free to come up with a better one. Whether or not you like it, shit will happen, and it will be up to you and whatever community you have around you to pick up the pieces after the last bomb drops. For some people, war is money. Money to be made in destroying something, money being made to rebuild it.
Don't go out with what you can't afford to lose, if that means your ship gets destroyed and you value the time and effort you spent building it, blueprint it. You won't get your time and resources back, but at least you're not starting from scratch and if you get blown up and have to start from scratch, you're doing it wrong.
1) Nobody forces you to haul stuff yourself, hire a spacetrucker, put a collateral on your product with their hauling contract and give them 2 weeks to delvier the cargo to your destination. If they lose it , or break the seal on the package, they immediately pay you the colalteral on the hauler contract. There's risk and there's stupiud risk, hauling your cargo makes ita stupid risk, let the professionals take care of it, it's their job.
2) The NBSI protocol in EVE was born for "crime prevention" purposes. It's as simple as "if you ain't confirmed friendly, you die". Which means, unless you have a "peroper paperwork" in the form of a "Blue-Friendly" tag, you are considered an enemy on default. You don't even have to be part of the alliance itself, just be on good terms with them, like a space trucker that does contracts for them - you do need outside trading to survive as an Empire, and blue-neutral traders are the way to do so.
The real problem is people not wanting to actually communicate with other people in MMOs, unless it's for being apes throwing rocks to one another.
Anyone in this thread who is "concerned about griefers" is just a pretentiuous peacewalker that RUNS to jin a lynchmob. Cause if everyone does it, why nop pile on the action like a hyena on a pinned animal, but when it's a hyena being stalked by other hyenas?"OH NOES,. PROTECT MY PRECIOUS HYENA ASS!"
I find it very amusing though most people have terrifying visions of BOO sacking your cities or some shit. It's adorable, you guys think we play your version of pirate.
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2 hours ago, 0something0 said:
But what if its your base that gets blown up?
Don't build your base where it may be blown up. You can't build in an Empire's turf without paying up. Simple as that.
Solo people won't have a "bsse", they will have a home in another org's established city. NQ was clear that TCUs are not meant for everyone. -
2 minutes ago, 0something0 said:
Haven't really kept up with DU politics. I thought the entity exists but with a different name?
But yes. Any org without hundreds or more members will probably get ganked out of existence unless:
They are the ones who are ganking others
They are spread across all timezones(but that brings a whole new issue in coordination)
They remain independent but have the backing of said large org
They don't have any physical assets(i.e. they are infantry-only mercs. This may change if there are auto turrets)
Which basically means you and your group of friends playing together as if this was Minecraft(2b2t anyone?) probably isn't a viable option.
No, this is what you don't get, an alliance in EVE is not a group of 10000 people ,it's a group of smaller entities. The corp I was part of was a 20 man corporation, we did outr thing, had our small clique going and we would group up with other smaller corporations in the alliance to set up a fleet - or join one someone was organising on the spot.
Your group of bros IS welcome in DU, what is not to be expected is you wanting an equal level of logistics with a 10000 people alliance that has dedicated space truckers, repairmen, gunners and scouts.
And even then, the way DU is designed (combat is about hit chance that's depedent on speed and tranversal lengths) you can have a smaller group of people who go up against a larger number of ships IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE JOB. If the enemy has 100 ships ,but no coordination or they got guns that are meant for short range brawls and you got a fleet of 20 ships but are meant for high speeds (to the point of being impossible to hit) and a lot of tracking speed for your long range guns, you can defeat the enemy. That has been done in EVE, point is, the skillcap for such a job is not low. The way NQ developes DU isn ot "low skillcap", it is about "easy to learn, hard to master" gameplay.
What you are basically asking is "can I have failsafes for not being baited into a battle I will lose" and the answer is "no".
Most people unfamiliar with EVE think the "Null-Sec Empire" means 1 corp controlling vast amounts of space. That's far from the truth. Your 20 people brocorp has a place in EVE and so will in DU. If you want your 20 man corp have a specific role, you can do that as well, you can specialise, the same way some corps in alliances specialise in bomber fleets and tactics, similar to a "spec ops" team of people.
What people seem to want, is being an Empire, without having to work for it, have to fight wars or have to do diplomacy - which is evident in this communtiy, that most of the carebears don't want to do diplomacy, cause they are antisocial AF.
No, you won't be anything important without trying for it. You won't be infamous unless you make that infamy happen. You won't become famous or respected, if you don't make it happen. No NPC will be there to tell you "Welcome Important Hero Person, Leader of the Carebear Army" to tell you how important you are. You'll have to work for it.
Rooks & Kings in EVE Online ,are a group of 20 people, who went up against the biggest coalitions of the game back when everyone was happy with each other. There is a video of them standing their ground protecting Providence for hours, after coalitions (amounting to 20000 people total) would send fleet after fleet to be destroyed by RnK until they overpowered them and then on top of that, RnK GOT AWAY with one of the most epic escapes in space game history.
What's my point? They worked to get where they are now as an organisation, they worked to get to the point of people seeing one of their scouts and going like "... uh./... let's just not go that way guys, that way is probably where RnK will be waiting for us" even if they are a fleet of Battleships. RnK accepted "we have less guns, so we must maximise our total fleet efficiency and coordination to win" and win they have. There are countless videos of theirs where they engage enemy fleets that outnumber them 5 to 1 and 10 to 1.
More or less, anyone who wants to be "the underdog" in DU, should accept some basic Art of War rules : Know yourself and know the enemy, and in a thousand battles, you'll have a thousand victories. And that goes for any game out there. If you don't know for example, that Ceramic Steel is not a good armor against kinetic weapons, that is YOUR FAULT and if a smaller group of ships pelts your ships with railguns fro m100km off, that is you sucking at the game. And that's a part of NQ's design for DU, different materials providing different resistances to damage sources. You may think - like a person who's not familiar with EVE - that this is a 4-way rock-paper-scissors, in reality, EVE's combat system is inspired by games like Might & Magic card games (yeah, look it up, that's their inspiration), in which case, you build a ship smart like you'd build a deck of cards, or you build it stupid, and stupid ships are blown off the sky really fast, but here is the catch - your budies can use theri cards o ntheir ships to assist your card's shortcomings, i.e. "remtoe shield boosters" that restore your shields.
Your 20 man bro-corp, if it has proper intelligence (or pay for it, there's no same in spywork) and you fit your ships to exploit the enemy's wekaness in their armor, then you will win. You attacking first means nothing, if you are not equipped to exploit the eneny's weakness.
Brute force might sound like a good plan, until you see videos like this :
Watch it or not, it's a good video to inspire you to be more tactical.
RnK is borderline philosophy if you watch their videos. -
15 hours ago, 0something0 said:
It seems like banding into groups of a few dozen like kin Minecraft factions wont be enough and only mega-orgs like Cinderfsll will last a long time.
Cinderfall doesn't exist anymore :V
I guess you mean BOO is gonna be the one to rule them all and in the dank memes bind them? -
1 hour ago, Xenoform101 said:
That all may be true, but last i checked a subscription fee plus the potential DACs bought by those user is worth more than some fictional currency to a real business. Not to mention, sure suicide ganking may reduce supply, but if it causes enough people to leave it also reduces demand, which leaves us back to square 1.
That's quite a bit of false assumptions you have there.
i agree. I've seen games dumbed down to oblivion, but at the same time if the learning curve is too steep, it won't bring in more people either.
This may be true, but i bet you that they aren't a group of people with less than a month combat experience in the game while completing these feats. So when you are fighting a force that has at least equal or more often times greater skill, numbers most definitely matter especially if in their favor.
I have no problem with freedom of choice but i think game mechanics should influence that choice else it can be pure anarchy. I think that if you are a villain, there should be a very good reason for another player to be the police, which often times the reward is mediocre at best.
Is it though? You may think it's bullshit but I at least have proof that it is a valid argument in the form of the original post on this thread. Eve has such a negative stigma that some people will completely disregard any differences and key features that separate this game from it, including the non-combat aspects. That is the biggest hurdle i've been trying to get people to overcome when trying to get them to consider this game.
Excuse me but... if more DACs are being bought, DAC's have a sure-shot market, which incentivises people with little time to grind to buy a DAC for IRL money and dump it into the market. If DACs are not sold cause nobody got money, cause nothing happens, then the devs' financial safety is challenged. Like it or not, strife drives economies.
Remember, people who buy PLEX in EVE are people who like doing Wolf-Packs (Interceptor / cheap ship fleets), who like the whole "hunting" experience, and have little to no survival chance if the hunt goes sideways. Nobody buys PLEX in EVE to buy a super-capital, like a Dreadnaught or a Titan - that is the worst myth stupid people ever came up with. The very people who will SELL the DACs in DU, will be the same people increasing the minerals' worth in the market due to scarcity and the same people will be the ones seeing diminishing returns if they keep suicide ganking. That's how it works anywhere, that's how supply and demand works. That's how "game mechanics" prevent suicide gankin, without the devs acting like a babysitter.
What you are asking, is NPC police, NPC farming (no risk fighting a worthy smart opponent - like a human who will not be kited and will get away or outpaly you) and the exact opposite of DU. Which is why I consider you part of the peoplew ho never left Hi-Sec in EVE over however many years you were part of the game. You clearly never seen player ran "polce force" in null-sec whose job is to protect people from ganks by informing them of an approaching roam or people who are docekd on stations waiting for a Home Defense fleet against a roam.
Do people get caught by a roam? Yeah, but that's life. If you don't pay attention to your alliance's chat or their discord pings screaming "HEY< GET THE F OUT OF THE SKY, ENEMY ROAM", you are at fault, not the game. Which brings me back to my original "assumption" - you don't want to play the game with other people or rely to them, the fact you don't know of these mechanics of null-sec and know of "suicide ganking" screams "Hi-Sec Resident". And that's not DU's fault or EVE's fault. Null-Sec is far safer than Hi-Sec, you should have known that by now.
And DU by virtue of being - by the looks of it - WH-Space from EVE, it's the safest enviroment it can be in space. And again, if you are on a planet and you don't pay attention to your scouts' reports of "enemy roam incoming" you are at fault, not the game. -
4 hours ago, Xenoform101 said:
Don't get me wrong i have nothing against pvp in general. I just think there should be more incentives for equal or harder fights. Maybe if a ship is completely out-gunned it has more chance of having its salvageable parts completely destroyed. I understand killing for bounty, loot or territory but acts that exist just for the sake of misery like suicide ganking should be heavily discouraged somehow.
Suicide ganking will only make market prices go up. The people who would do suicide gankings would end up making minerals cost more and more, as resrouces deplete faster, thus making both scarcity AND supply and demand increase. If anything, suicide ganking would make more people buy DACs more easily, mining operations would be a prime-time money-making thing, and mercenaries would have jobs protecting siad miners.
Oh, wait, you are the kind of person who doesn't talk to people in MMOs and wants to "solo that bitch". Yeah, no, that won't work.There is no "Solo miner" in EVCE, those get roflstomped hard.
Also, as Blazemonger and Lethys pointed out, NOBODY limits you from using a warship - like a battleship - then add a lot of containrs in it and use it as a cargo hauler.
But, again, you are the quintessential "MMO-singleplayer" kind of person. Your problem is not ganking, nor griefers, it's the fact you'll have to do that whole "Socialising" thing,
EVE is a great game due to its social aspect. In EVE, you CAN become notorious and infamouis, have legends sprout about you and have people actively talk shit about you cause of your reputation. There is no "reputation bar" to grind in EVE, there is no "Experience bar" to fill - you either learn from being brutally ganked or you don't, there ius no experience points, only raw player intuition.
Your problem lays there, you never learned from ganks.
Also, you mentioned on another post that "numbers matter"... no they don't. They matter when Titans show up, cause Titans are more like mobile objectives than actual muscle, but not in casual PvP that happens 99% of the time.
Rooks & Kings built their infamy on that principle, 20 vs 100, 20 vs 500, and so on. They have totalled fleets 10:1 stacked against them. how? Player Skill > Numbers.
So, again, we come to a conclusion of you not understanding how the PvP in EVE Works, which means, you never been ina bait fleet, or done Tackle, or done Scouting - the small things about them silly "tactics". Catching an enemy off guard as they land from warp or putting a drag buibble down, can TOTALLY throw them off balanc and let them be fish in a barrel.
Also, to top it off, you assume the game's only attraction is "explode or be exploded". That's not the case. Some other people have made claims on "I worry about the game loop, EVE has a clear game loop". EVE's game loop consists of :
1) Buy ship
2) Hunt for other ships.
3) 1. Explode enemy ship, sell loot, get bigger ship.
3) 2. If you get exploded, return to 1), and try until you can get bigger ship.
4) Repeat process.
DU is EXACTLY not that. The game is advertised as SANDBOX game, EVE is "sandboxy", but it's pretty linear on what it is about, it's about space mafia wars. DU has no such thing. There are no faction warfares to sell "warfare", there is no "one thing" that in-game funds funnel to.
Saying "what about the game, if it's easier, it will get more people" is as much a fallacy ,as it is to claim "DU is about PvP" or "DU is about building" or" Du is about X-gameplay".
Most people here who argue for EVE's mechanics, are people who speak of its level of management leisure and market mechanics. MArket drives EVE's "Sandbox", and as far as we EVE players care, we wanna see that kind of meta in DU - cause it's deep.
And EVE suffers from High-Sec people who stay there and do nothing but kill virtual pirates and then whine like babies about "my PVE shi pwas destroyed, boo-hoo, I am not the space commadner I thought I was, boo-hoo".
DEAL with it. Nothing lasts forever.
The very first thing you learn when you move into a proper organisation in EVE is "this is not permanent, we may be evicted one day", or if you have the lucky circumstance of being in an organised alliance where you are part of its military, they will say "don't get attached to this place here, we may relocae" cause oyu know, war fronts relocate, you need to be close to the front line.
You may ask "that's a bit odd, why would an in-game military ask you to not get attached?" Cause most of them pay your ships when destroyed via SRP, you just fly them to battle and show up for fleets.
So, no, the arguement you made "people won't buy into the game if ganking is left free cause those people will get bored of losingtheir ship" is a bullshit arguement, out of aperson who never went to null-sec or even was part of a proper military in EVE Online. We have people who are provided their "footsoldier" ships for free, just cause they showed up, even newbros on Frigates, they are given ECM ships to assist in fleets.
EVE's problem lays onthe fact they have nothing for the person to entice them to invest in the game in an RP way or activities that are not blowing shit up. When not on a ship, you are just an icon on a chatbox. That's the problem EVE has. Mainstream people can't connect with it to appreciate it.
DU has SO MANY THINGS non-combat related - building with voxels being only one part of them. The more new gameplay options NQ adds, the mroe people will paly the game. If someone wants to play DU as farmville in FPS mode, they SHOULD be able to do so. If a person wants to play the game as a lone wolf, they should expect the results of being a one man nation - the fact they MUST become a one man army. And if a person wants to be a villain, then it's up to the players to be the police.
Anyone who has a problem with DU's vision, has a problem with Freedom of Choice. -
23 minutes ago, namco said:
You talk as if ships can't be automated. They have already said LUA scrips can be used pretty much anywhere, there is gonna be that one guy who figured out how to code some ships to fly with him and they will end up fully automated.... Will they have "auto pathing" probably not, can they follow one ship that is piloted? sure. Will they have weapons, most likely, and as such they can also be scripted to auto fire in the LUA.
Since you suffer from split-personality disorder, I'll point you to your earlier quote. I guess now you have to put your money where your mouth is, right?
You expect a fully automated ship with guns - you also sound like the guy who will "figure that out". Nobody can "figure out" how to automate auto-firing turrets, if there is no such command in the library of commands for Lua in the game. Who knew, interpreters need libraries to function.
Cheers. -
You can script something and remote control it, using the scripts to make it follow you as a "maneuver", similarly setting the ship with a similar script to "orbit" another construct.
That's not automation, that's clever remote control. What you want, is having drones doing your bidding, or having a ship that needs no crew. And that's a no-no. Some things are automated, tbut that doesn't mean you'l lget auto-locking, auto-firing turrets on ships. -
Just now, namco said:
If you can write lua scrips, you can automate a ship... sure it may not be something that you can do out of the box, but are they going as far as limiting lua scripts? because I thought they said "you can script anything" in which case you can script a ship to fly on its own.... it may not have pathing or object detection but it could follow you around like a drone and auto fire. Since they already said you can build drones to follow you. FAIL.
No, no you can't if the devs won't allow you for it - and they don't allow for it. You can't fly a 100 guns ship on your own, they don't want you to, and they won't enable it.
You seem to think they will introduce Lua in all its glory - backdoors to other people's PCs included. That won't happen either. They utilise Lua as a high fuinction macrocommand script, not for you to be Captain Solo-Flying-Battleships.
Cheers. -
1 minute ago, namco said:
You talk as if ships can't be automated. They have already said LUA scrips can be used pretty much anywhere, there is gonna be that one guy who figured out how to code some ships to fly with him and they will end up fully automated.... Will they have "auto pathing" probably not, can they follow one ship that is piloted? sure. Will they have weapons, most likely, and as such they can also be scripted to auto fire in the LUA.
A lot of comments are "no because I don't like it" but you are ruining the chance for other players to do it. If I spend the resources to build a trap base to where you breach inside and then 20 turrets come online and kill you making you drop all your gear inside the trap base, than hey, you lose and I should be able to do it. There is no reason to limit players from doing anything as long as it fits with the lore of the game. Same goes for things like ramming ships. I know they claimed already that you wont be able to, but did they say "wont ever be able to" or "we have more important things to develop right now to get the main game going?" Limiting interaction is just as bad as not developing the game in the first place. IF its not possible now, fine, but they need to figured it out at some point and allow for the game to truly come "alive." To me, the biggest issue with MMO's is that they are single player games "with friends". That isn't fun, at all. MMO games should be online worlds that feels like you are living in them. A sort of "escape" from real life as games have always been, just more dynamic. But then again, that's my opinion. I still feel we shouldn't be limited in any aspect.Welcome stranger, ships won't be automated. I have a link to a dev's quote above on the comments (previous page probably by now), check it.
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3 hours ago, NanoDot said:
The RDMS is the logical place to define relationships between you and other players, but I'm not sure that it's the place where the actions of specific elements will be defined.
But it's not clear to me how elements will access the rules defined in the RDMS.
For instance:
- Turret detects player X.
- Turret queries RDMS to determine player X status.
- RDMS returns that player X is "red".
- Turret script says "fire at red players"
- Turret fires.
Will the RDMS have a specific section dealing with "Base turret actions" ?
And where exactly will the RDMS rules be defined ?
Can a single player define RDMS rules for themselves and their bases/constructs ?
Or is the RDMS system an attribute of orgs only ?
Does a turret have the ability to acquire it's own targets ?
Or does it have to be linked to a scanner of some type ?
Or can you link a scanner and a turret to a processing board and do some fancy Lua scripting for "fire control" ?
So many questions...
I see your arguement.
Yeah, turrets would need to operate on default statistics (non-modified by the player) to kee pthe system fair. so if turrets fddo work by a "random spawn of damage bubbles", which is essentialy :
1) Turret paints a construct
2) Damage bubble is raycast-spawned on the painted area (giant red circle)
Said "possible area of damage bubble spawn" would need to be kept on default size, i.e. no player training involved in its size reduction (less diamter o nthe damage area circle, more possible groupings).
Which can be the benefit of "active" vs "passive defenses". Trained gunners actively o nguard duty on turrets == more precise guns. -
6 minutes ago, NanoDot said:
At no point did I imply that NQ can't do automated defences or that it's "too difficult", and I certainly did not venture into the specifics of what server processors can or cannot handle (the latter was entirely your diversion).
I was only referring to the implications of the apparent contradiction implied by the idea that "scripts only run when the owner is near them". Exactly what that means will become clear once NQ defines the scope in detail and/or we can test the mechanics ingame.
The default functions of a base turret will in all likelihood be things like Set_Target(), Fire_at_Target(), etc. But the rules for defining valid targets will be defined by the owner, either via RDMS or scripts on some element or "target lists" defined on the turret itself or some other mechanism. Hence exactly how scripts are handled may be important.
Most likely, the RDMS. I mean, EVE does it to cut down on operational difficulty, sort ofl ike Player Owned Starbases I'd recokn.
You got settings like "is the enemy a known aggressor? (security status low) then shoot", or "is enemy at War with us? Then fire". I see it in DU workiung like " Is enemy "RGB Color" ? Then shoot" with an arbitrary RGB color denoting "target is Red-Hostile to us".
Would be very very light for operational uses like "Stargate Defenses" or "Starbase/Base Defenses".
As long as those guns are not on ships, it's gonna be fine. If they are on ships, then it's gonna be real poop. -
On 25/10/2017 at 2:58 PM, NanoDot said:
As always the devil is in the details...
Nyz's post simply says that NQ will be:
but then we also heard elsewhere that:
This introduces an element of uncertainty regarding just how effective those base defences will be.
We'll only know the full extent of the implementation once NQ reveals its final scope.
You are still confusing scripts with rudimentary linear logic systems that take like 4Hz out of a processor on a server.
Step a ) Player sets up a list of "blue-friendly" and "red-hostile" allainces, and validates if "grey-neutral" is meant to be shot.
Step b ) Turrets access a three step logic of checking a palyer's status, then if the owner set up fire on sight the turrets fire on sight.
That kind of thing does not require tremendous amounts of computation on NQ's part, they only check the owner's list of "valid targets" and then the turret fires accordingls.
Scripts and rudimentary operator-like logic is not the same thing. NPC scripts require - usually - their own server to run on, cause NPCs have scripts for pathfinding. which are a whole lot of complicated and do require a lot of computation.
So yeah, I can see why NQ would want stationary things, like bases having autoamted defenses. You can have like 4000 Guns, they'd take no more than 4 KHz out of the server node - which is nothing. Likewiwse, NQ can LIMIT the time of those automated defenses by linking it with an in-game mechgnaic - like degrading logic chips or something, there excuse is in the tech of it - so those automated defenses need in-game money to be sustaiend or i-game resources, or, hey, FUEL might be a good balance for their uptime.
Point is, we should not linger on semantics like this. Point is they CAN do automated defenses for bases, they are not that difficult. They said "we may allow simple scripts to run on the server" on many occassions, this is what they meant, systems like 3 step logic. -
Minor corrections :
1) You don't need to be an Amarrian zealot in Providence to run Rentals, the Russians do that just fine in EVE and with great success, most of them don't even care about - or not even know - what the Lore is. I mean, to be honest, isn't EVE about space humans who were trapped after the EVE Wormhole collapsed or some sizzle like that? Then they went to the stone age or something? I don't know, and probably, 90% of the EVE playerbase doesn't know either. As Lord Mandalore said : "EVE's lore is not important".
2) Carebear is an exclusive title for anyone who does only PVE in an MMO for the "lore", like it's a singleplayer game, usually in an Open-World PvP game. I know many traders in EVE who avoid direct PvP for "pretend" reasons, but they have no moral quams ordering a grief-streak from mercs on a person's corp. Thus, I don't think "Carebear" applies in DU, we'll have to come up with another title to "mock" such people, like "Tourists", or "owls" (as they are looking at people like O,O who do PvP and stuff) or "civilians". I mean, hey, if people establish some semblance of "laws of war" (if even possible) "civilians" (AKA people who only do RP stuff and provide into an economy without pvping) can be excluded from being targeted individually - unless they take up guns.
Let's be honest, DU is heavily reliant on the RPer population, we might as well treat them as rare resources - you know, the human kind.
Not that GOONs will care, but some of us space bandits only care to stick it to the "man", not neccessarily the Average Joe. -
PErsonally, I hope NQ does not add any PVE, other than hunting animals for food or for cosmetic items or trophies.
PVE is like uncontrolable diarrhea in such games, people whine about "my PVE gear is worthless in PvP", like stupid people do in EVE Online do.
Or, Albion, the so called "Medievai EVE Online", is so full of PVE, it's insulting, most people even having "taboo" rules on "D o not PvP here, it's PVE zone". Like... whaT? Yo usee my having "Band of Outlaws" over my head and yo utell me that thing, really? CHOP CHOP.
PVE in DU will only make things bad for everyone ,cause people - like with EVE - expect something "carebear friendly" and the only thing they end up getting is the shaft.
If there is no PVE, people will hae to do this thing called "socialising" with other huma nbeings, instead of "chasing the princess on another castle".
I also find it hilarious that many on this forum want PVE so they can be "smugglers" that "smugggle" thigns into a PVE faction, more or less, they want "smuggler" fetch quests, cause that's what makes you Han Solo, fetch quests, right?
No, if people want an "Adventure" they might as well grow a spine and become adventurers - AKA, fortune seekers. Go ut there, find a space priate, have a nice duel, ask them if they recruit scause you look for an org anyway, join them, go smash other people's sand castles together.
I personally had mroe fun in EVE during the Wea-War (a war between people who like anime and people who do not like Anime - yes, that's an actual war that went down in EVE Online) than I had in WoW killing the Lich King. There's a certain level of funny ,when your side is trapped and the enemy bombers coming in to bomb you, while writing in Local Chat "CHIBI KAWAII mofakerz".Yes, EVE Online, war about anime. Oh how terrible people we are for not giving much of a turd for people without guts, who want all the glory for risking nothing.
-
NQ's stance on the subject, link directs to Nyzaltar's quote. -
1 minute ago, NanoDot said:
How ?
A script is just an arbitrary block of text until it is associated with a specific element. You can't just email somebody a script and expect it to work, the receiver will need to link that email text to a specific element.
Perhaps there could be a list of "operators" defined for each element, which will automatically copy the relevant scripts to their clients, without allowing them to actually program the element ?
Who will be the lucky players that have to spend an hour of their daily play time sitting in the base to keep the defences functioning ?
Frankly, I cannot see how this can be avoided.
Otherwise, automated base defences will only be practical for large orgs that can maintain an online presence 24/7...
You seem to think a simple AI takes a lot of processing power... The Devs have said they may add base defenses (base defenses != ship weapons), that can be automaed, i.e. not nmeeding palyers to manually target them. That kind of A.I. does not have to rely on things like pathfinding (it's immobile), itonly has to lock onto a tagrget and try to destroy its Core Unit. Nothing more, than less. Thus, this kind of "turret construct" if you will, can have a very simple logic assocaitd with it for actions.
"Is the target Red? Yes? Shoot it"
Or :
"Is the target Neutral? Yes? Does their ship got Guns? =Scanning Action= No? Don't shoot" (if that's your thing).
That's a very minor thing that can run o nthe servers. You set the parameters, the server simply follwos a very rudimentary logic flowchart. The "crazy" AI you may think of, works by path-finding and checkpoints and has a lot of processing pwoer tied to it - which is why NQ d oesn't want their game to have PVE, too many compelx AIs ( for challenge and other Carebear crap) take away from processing power that could go towards serving actual players.
Also, scripts, like anything, can be easily stored server-side along with a construct's blueprint and be distributed when accessing the Control Units - PRocedural Generation works on many things, not just 3D enviroments. The scripts RUN on your machine, they do not actually need to be stored on it, same way you can stream videos on yotube without having to save them on your machine. -
I personally feel that "other species" should still be kept in the context of humanity.
Laws an morality does not work anymore, we rebuild civilisation. Some people might want to go full cybrog - and it has a catch if yo uthink about it,- while other people go for mutagenics, but paying a price in the process.
but for this to work, the game needs a food system.
Cyborgs get amplified ,but at the cost of requirng a lot more energy to function, tuhs the player that goes cyborg has a far more dire need of energy than a non-cyborg player. They also suffer from E-War that would not affect other players that much. The average human in DU is partially cyborg, so any E-war would affect them partially - a little losss of accuracy, a little motorfunction loss in the form of movement speed impairment. But a Cyborg? good luck with that, E-War would be a tremendous hiderance to Cyborgs, with only their enhancements provbiding partial defeense to E-War. And of coruse, let's keep it traditiona - cyborgs drop all of their augmentantions on death, like they would drop equipment and inventory as loot.
On the other hand, Mutagenics would give birth to mutants. Their schtick would be that they HAVE to eat certain exotic food to keep up tiher metabolsim, food that is normally poisonous to normal humans. So in exchange for XYZ mutation (like more spsed, endurance or agility) the mutants get a very narrowed diet for their choice.
That could create certain spots in the game world for people of each "sub-race" to congregate, creeating a form of "cultural center" for the different races.
But that's just me, I want such chocies to go beyond "cool cyborg eyes". -
12 minutes ago, MasteredRed said:
We aren't that bad... most of the time.
Like seriously though. Metric is so easy to learn! It's just my childhood had this bs system engraved into it so my metric sense of distance needs to have a conversion before I can understand it.
Just way too sad.
It's just as arbitrary as UK cars having the driver seat on the right, cause once upon a time carriage drivers would from time to time whip the people on the sidewalk while whiping their horses.
It's just as much silly as the mile.
The matric system is only good cause it's in increments of ten. A kilometer is 1000 meters.
Now the empyrical system... 12 inches is 1 foot, 3 feet is 1 yard, 1760 yards it's a mile - but a mile is not a Nautical Mile. Like... where is the logic in that? O.o -
The best part is, like people using miles and pounds, the "Imperial" system is not actually an "Imperial" system, it's an EMPYRICAL system which means "a measurement built upon a person's everyday observations". Just look up how the Yard came to be a measurement. It was King Henry the First's arm length.
Yeah, you might as well change the phrase "the whole nine yards" to "the whole nine arms". The "imperial" systme is THAT stupid.
While the emyprical way of measurement helps at times at expressing VAST numerical values ( like an Astronomical Unit, which is 8 minutes at lightspeed or the dsitance betwene the Earth and the Sun), using such a system to express measurements that are not scientifically accurate, is just a pointless thing.
Just watch any documentary made for 'Murricans. Every time they want to express dsitance, they say "that's about 5 football fields!"
yeah, welcome to 'Murica, they invented a new measurement, Football Fields. Next step, measuring jet speeds not in Mach, but NASCAR tracks. -
2 hours ago, Armedwithwings said:
Sometimes i really wonder how will the whole economic structure evolve in Dual Universe.
I'm of the mind that the game shouldn't provide a form of pre established currency and drive people create the economic network from scratch.
Having player driven Faction States powerful enough to found their very own personal currency is the pinnacle of emergant gameplay.
Nobody hinders you from using minerals as a tradeable commodity. You got a lot of something, you can exchange it with another person who has a lot of that somethign you want, but they don't got that something you have.
Quanta (the game's currency) is not a "must have". I bet some people will out right denoucne it, as Quanta is easilly infalted, while resoruces are finite in the game and much of those resources is destroyed in combat. So, if you stock up on a resource, you could make a LOTS of Quanta if you dump the product o nthe market at an opportune moment if Quanta is what you are after. -
Just now, NanoDot said:
Let's keep it real, shall we ?
To the average gamer, "PVP" means pew-pew, i.e. killing other players and/or being killed by them.
Most online games involve various forms of competition, but not all of them will be classed as "PVP" games. The "PVP" label is commonly used to describe a very specific form of competition.
If you start messing around with the commonly accepted definitions of terms, then you end up in NMS territory... (e.g. NMS is a multiplayer game, because everyone plays in the same shared universe, etc.).
Thing is, Economic Warfare is still warfare. Violence is not the only kind of fighting. PEople compete in the market, traders outdo one another, people lose ,oney, other people get richer.
That's PvP. Some people get-off on it in EVE Online. -
People should stop bitching about NQ's stance on "scammers won't be penalised for tricking you".
People should stop whining about "no, griefers won't be penalised (IRL harrassment is the place where NQ steps in, that's a no-no on so many non-game related reasons)".
People should also stop whining about "no safe-space". There is one, it's the Safezone on the Arkship. If you want to live in a sterilised world, be my guest, live in the safezone. If anything, Safezones will be the best prisons, with every single griefer around it waiting like a shark.
PvP extends to markets, it extends to inlfuence, it extends to making deals - which is what politics is for - it extends to competition of any kind in the game. Most of those people, will NOT play fair, on any level.
If you want a fair play MMO, where everyone is honorable and just and a total BORE of a game, DU won't be the game for you.
If you want an MMO where you are " Leader of the Galactic Snowflake Empire's Army and the Most Important Person in the Lore" this is NOT the game for you. This game is about experiencing an in-game world through the eyes of an everyday person, that COULD amount to something epic. You know, adventure? It involves risks. If you run no risks, the game is not fun.
If you want to play a game that's an MMO, that is sandbox, but not really an MMO, where everything is tailored towards a single-player experience, this game is NOT for you, this game is not one you should venture alone, it will be boring if you do so. Get into an organisation , find the one you find most comfortable hanging out with. If this is not your thing, go play Black Desert Online, I'll bet you love being one of the 1000000 other chosen ones.
My biggest worry about this game
in General Discussions
Posted
And you have every right to not see the game as the space wild west.
Not everyone in EVE sees it as "space wars the MMO", others see it as a market simulator - or as it's humourously referred to, an Excel Feature Pack. Poinmt is, those people who don't do PvP? They get into corporations who compliment their non-PvPiness with their own PvP oriented gameplay and each one plays off of the pros and cons to the corporation.
Same thing for DU. You can't do anything on your own, that's pretty much impossible, so you can join an org to have logistical support as an active PvP player who protects OR be a logistics person (industry, hauling) who looks for people who they can TRUST to help with delviering cargo - cause organisation is where the trust is, isntead of randos who will most likely shank you for your cargo or lead you to a trap.
But no, you can't expect to be "solo" and be also able to experience the frontier. That's not how c ivilisation works. Civilisation includes borders and culture. Some people wil lbe psychos, others will be lax, others will be RP, some will be small, some will be big, others running industrial empires with private armies of mercenaries onn their payroll.
Who plays the game right? All of them. All of the worked to get where they are.
Point is, we seen this kind of behavior of people who are "oh, I hates PvP, mimimi" in EVE, when Circle of Two were under fire last November, all fo those "no PvP peopeplke" flooded in favor off the siege fleet agaisnt CO2. All those carebears showed how much of hyenas they are when lynching is involved.
Did CO2 deserve what went down? That's subjective of an opinion, what's objective as an opinion, is I don't trust any risk averse people who only know zerging as a tactic. Cause all those people share the same exact vision.
There are people in these forums wanting to be "smugglers" but NOT smugglers who will have to deal with actual people and actual economy, more like having a glorified Fetch Quest for an NPC. You know, smugglers need connections, need people to look the other way, need someone who wil lbuy the cargo they bring as a smuggler is there to circumvent a cartel's hold on a monopoly - yes, Big Farma has a hold on opioids, that's why drug dealers import herpoine, what's in heroine is inside your paionkillers as well, only one is taxed and the other is not and the taxed product is also regulated and needs a doctor's perscription, woohooo "smugglers bring drugs", no they don't, peopel smuggle wine into muslim countries cause it's illegal, shit, my uncle is working delivery for vinyards, I guess if he puts on a Jacket and makes Harrison F ord smirks he's a smuggler as well, right? LOL.
Point is, anything peoiple may want to play they are free to play as, but they'll have to accept some facts. Respecting the culture of each region of space is one of them. You are meant to respect any country's laws in the real world, so will you in DU. If their law is "do not start a fight here you can't finish on your own" you have to accept that. If you bring buddies in a 1vs1, you'll be brutalised and nobody will feel sorry.
If their law is "no outsiders, tresspassers will be brutalised" you went looking for trouble if you ventured near them regardless.
You can stay in Safezones to be "in peace with everyone" or whatever, but you can't expect to see the depth of palyer civilsiation - or get normal prices - in a safezone Safezones will have high prices on markets (cause imports cost), market scams like inside trading, artificial scarcity to drive up prices and profiteering.
Safezones won't be a thing for long, they are just a "secure spawn". You can stay in a safezone and be forever solo, be a netural party anbd be in good terms with other people by COMMUNICATING WITH THEM and asking for a "blue status" on other people and make moeny by trading i-0between larger empires...
Or Join BOO Today! We respect no in-game country's laws, and we only have one code - be polite to your fellow Boobians under our Lord, The Honeybadger. Join BOO today, and be one of the first to try out being pod-dropped into an enemy battleship!