BandaTalk

Lol. Pretty much any and all player run commercial banks in these games are scams and even they aren’t intended to be originally, they almost always end up becoming a scam anyways. Anyone who deposits their money in a bank with zero assurance is just dumb.

A million quanta is cool, but you know what’s really cool.......? Scams are great, but if you want to make really moneys. Institutional control kinda moneys, you need to build trust and incentivize rational behavior. Be transparent and put large amounts of your own money into the enterprise. I wouldnt invest in a DU bank that didn’t have any of these in a million years. Commercial, retail and private banking are all unnecessary in DU and are all definitely a scam.

Or have a player run bank underwrite the IPO on their behalf. An org first going public would probably want to minimize their risk as much as possible.

Will there be financial market mechanics with securities like stocks and bonds?

The VoC is also known as the Dutch East India Trading Company, the world first multinational corporation and the world’s first publicly listed company. The pirates are the guys from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Exactly! Imagine the VoC vs Pirates but in space.

The Terran Union folks aren’t gonna be happy with high taxes, bonds could be a more popular means of raising revenues for their activities in game. The Terran Union could issue their version of Treasury Notes and Treasury Bills. Same with BOB and all the other orgs also.

I guess I could create unique certificates just like one would create a unique ship and then sell it.

Organizations. What else?

My idea is for securities such as stocks and bonds to be held as physical items, such as they would’ve been held as physical certificates in times past in the real world. This would allow players to conduct finance is a far more secure manner and also give the holders of these securities incentive to protect and honor them. This would also also allow the set of of trade hubs specifically dedicated to trading securities and would essentially be a DU stock market. I’d think this would be relatively easy to implement, but maybe not. What are everyone’s opinions on this?

I’m referring to just an in game report about the nature of some property being destroyed. Like automatic in game police report. I’m not saying that there should be a central database accessible to all players.

Will there be kill reports provided when a ship is destroyed alá Eve? It would great if kill reports for other, non-movable structures too.

Reserved for stuff

ALIOTH FIRE OFFICE Fidnetia! My name is BandaTalk. I am the general partner of the Alioth Fire Office and the owner of BandaTalk’s Coffeehouse. The ALIOTH FIRE OFFICE is an asset management and financial services firm organized as a private limited partnership. The AFO is primarily devoted to serving the shipping/hauling and commodities/mining industries within the DU. AFO is NOT a bank and will NOT accept deposits and will NOT participate in any form of commercial, retail or private banking. I would ideally like to work with the DU equivalent of “accredited investors”, meaning those of high net worth and institutional investors, meaning other organizations. This would be a means of protecting my reputation, as hopefully I’d be seen as not wanting to prey on new players or quote-un quote “stupid people” and am only interested in managing investments in a safe and complex way, which allows the parties involved to see a return regardless of the overall state of the economy. If this sounds like a hedge fund, that is intentional, I was going for that. Hedge funds are the real world version of an unregulated investment fund, which is perfect for an unregulated world like Dual Universe. The AFO would be set up as a private limited partnership, with me as the general partner, meaning I would assume sole responsibility for the AFO liability in the case of default or other credit event. Limited partners would be able to remain anonymous if they choose. I, as the General partner, would receive 2% of total assets every year and 20% of profits for each successful investment (which would primarily be bond issues). This is identical to a real world hedge fund and is intended to increase trust in the fund’s manager as they have a huge stake in the fund’s success. I’d also, invest large portions of my own private wealth into the fund. Limited partners would receive a monthly dividend TBD also based on the profit of a successful investment. I foresee, it being difficult to attract limited partners as trust is a premium and y’all don’t really know me yet. This is okay, I don’t really trust you guys either yet, but I hope to work and build trust with you over time as we get to know each other. Limited partners would be able to withdraw the principal of their investment at anytime. Some of you may know a little about the MD and the financial industry in Eve Online, particularly the activities of players like Hexxx, Angelica Everstar, Grendell, and Chribba. Hexxx, for example, sought to recreate re world financial institutions with in game analogs, such as EBANK, which utilized a fractional reserve system similar to that of real world banks. The problem with this is that the world of New Eden in Eve Online and by extension the future of world of Dual Universe, are unregulated economies in which scams, market manipulation and money laundering are all common place and accepted. This is offset in several ways by employing trustworthy individuals such as Grendell and Chribba, who hold collateral as a security against default. Again, a problem with this is the nature of collateral, what you can and can’t put up as collateral, what the value of the collateral is and how liquid the collateral is. An example of hedge scam (or strategic default, depending on how you look at it) occurred in Eve, in which a collateralized loan (which was more of a bond issue as it took money from multiple investors and not from a bank) with monthly interest was put up, Grendell verified the collateral and its value (at over 100%) and the loan was deposited in the player who took out the loan’s account. The first round of interest was paid out and everyone was satisfied. The second month deadline passed and people who had put their money up for the loan started to question where their interest payments were. After a while longer, the player who took out the loan informed his investors of his intention to keep the principal of the loan and stop all future interest payments. This left Grendell with the responsibility to pay back the principal of the loan using the collateral. Unfortunately, the collateral put up was overvalued by Grendell due to it being a cheaper commodity, whose price sinks significantly when sold in large quantities. Grendell then asked the investors if they would prefer to receive the collateral itself as payment or who prefer that he liquidate it and pay them in cash. They decided on a half/half solution, in which half would be paid in the collateral itself and half would be cash proceeds from the sale of the collateral. You can find the record of this event here: https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/470872/ My solution to this is bond insurance, which would shift the liability from the bond issuer to the insurer in exchange for a premium, allowing them to issue bonds without any collateral and guarantee that the investors would receive their entire principal in full in the event of default or other credit event. This would involve the insurer either putting up collateral which would be verified by a trustworthy third party or by having a verifiably large cash reserve, either allowing them to pay out the insurance in the event of a default. The insurer would able to hedge their risk by purchasing reinsurance (or a credit default swap, which would be different in that the buyer of the CDS wouldn’t have to disclose all the risks involved, whereas with reinsurance, they would), at a slightly lower premium than what they are receiving from the bond issuer, and the reinsurer would be able to continue the chain by buying their own reinsurance and so on, only stopping when a party decides that the they think the bond issuer won’t default and they can walk away with a profit in premiums. An example of a bond issue would be as follows: Q5,000,000 worth of fixed rate corporate bonds with a nominal 2.8% monthly coupon, actually 1.8% monthly coupon after insurance, at 6 month maturity are purchased. This means Q90,000 is paid in interest monthly. The issuer would charge a 1% monthly premium (premiums would fluctuate and be based on the probability of default as determined by the insurer) taken from nominal 2.8% on the bond. The insurer would also charge a 2% service fee with every premium payment on top of the premium. Each monthly premium payment would be the equivalent of Q50,000 plus Q100,000 as the fee. 1% would paid to the third party service out of the 2% service fee to the insurer. In the event of default, the insurer would be able to do pay the entire principal back to the holders. The Insurer would have to have at least 110% of the value of the bond issue in reserves to pay out principal in the event of default. Collateral from the insurer would be secured by a trustworthy third party if possible. Collateral would have to have high liquidity as confirmed by the third party. Any excess in assets above the collateral requirement would potentially go towards buying bonds issued, though this is capped provisionally at 20% of the value of the bond issue, another means of hedging risk. The Insurer would buy a Q5m or Q4m Credit Default Swap with a monthly premium of 1% from another bank. If the issuer defaults, the insurer pays out the principal on the bond, then receives Q5m from the CDS, making around 1% if the issuer defaults. The users in this system would be as follows: The “Issuer” is the party who is seeking investment and which works with the BIHF insurer to conduct the bond issue. The “Insurer” is the party which assumes the liability for the bond. The “Third party” is a trustworthy individual who secures the collateral during the bond issue. The “Holder” is the party which owns the bonds and which is entitled to the principal being paid back. The “CDS Writer” is the party that sells the CDS to the Insurer, who is hedging their investment. The hedge fund-like part of my business plan would be called the AFO Bond Assurance Master Fund (AFOBAMF). AFOBAMF would have investments in bond insurance, with protections in the form of purchased CDSs and/or reinsurance, commodities, real estate, stocks, bonds and collectibles. The other part of my business would be a Mineral Reserve, which would buy minerals at low prices before the inevitable MMO inflation and collect minerals through direct mining. This mineral reserve would act similarly to how gold reserves backed currencies during the gold standard era. It would the basis of the AFO’s wealth. For example, on day one I’d buy 3000 units of gold ore at Q3000, for a total value of Q9,000,000. As the price rises the result will be completely profit. The AFO’s real estate properties are planned to include AFO headquarters on the Sanctuary Moon and BandaTalk’s Coffeehouse in Tortuga City. You can join by clicking on the links below: https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/alioth-fire-office https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/bandatalks-coffeehouse Discord: https://discord.gg/Tx8RTSY

A sub question: does anyone know of plans to allow for the logos of organizations to be printed to say the side of a ship or a building?

Does anyone know the reasoning for this?

I am enamored with what I’ve seen so far from Dual Universe and am so freekin’ excited to take part in it. The problem is that I don’t have a PC, I am a Mac user. This is not a big problem as I do foresee Mac support coming fairly soon relative. In the further future though, I’d love to have dual universe in my pocket anywhere I go and the Nintendo Switch seems kinda perfect for this, or at least whatever the Switch morphs into in the future. I just want to hear y’all’s opinions on whether this should be a long term development goal or not. It would further separate dual universe from the competition and bring into the mainstream in a big way. Especially if the long-long term goal is virtual reality.

Say I’m a new player who’s just arrived on Alioth, looking to begin a new life among the stars, but I only have a little bit of money, no ship and lack the ability to fly. Are there any plans by any organization to start commercial passenger flights between planets, moons, asteroids, etc. This seems to me to be a decent way to make money and spread the love to new folks looking to move on from Alioth early on. This could also cater to players who are not interested in ship building or flying within the game for whatever reason and don’t want to spend their time in game building and maintaining a ship. Make the the area around the arkship a spaceport and see it become the starting point for a prosperous world.

This would be very cool and go a long way towards the civilization building aspects of the game. I’m hoping for wealth disparity out the wazoo and hopefully some class conflict, revolutions, etc.

Thank for the great response! Subfeudination, meaning that the leaser of the territory unit can alienate (sell to another player) their right to use the land in that territory unit. By public land, I’m referring to land owned by the developers and not by any player. Land, which could go towards some real world educational purpose, for example.

I’m going to invest heavily in insurance. Heavily.

Civ IV Dwarf Fortress Kerbal Space Program Universe Simulator Crusader Kings II Prison Architect Minecraft Harvest Moon Beseige These are the games I enjoy the most that are most similar to Dual Universe. I’m generally a casual gamer though, with a more specific interest in emergent gameplay and arthouse games than in the kinds of games that may appeal more to your average 12 year old boy or gamer gater. I absolutely love playing Mario Kart, Old Pokemon games, GTA San Andreas, card and board game apps on my phone and even candy crush, which is addictive beyond belief for some reason.

I am wondering how land ownership will work within the game. A big part of what has had drawn me to this game is the potential for a full and rich economic system along with a political system. Real estate is the backbone of both of these in the real world. Land ownership and property ownership in general does not work without a government which backs the legality of owns claim to any property. I have ave a laundry list of things which may or may not be part of the game: - Land deeds - leasing and renting - subfeudination - property tax - collective ownership - public land - arbitration of disputes - land registry

What do you guys think are the chances that there are things like banks, stock (and commodities) markets, black markets, insurance, etc. How detailed will the economics simulation be?