SlaySomething
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Posts posted by SlaySomething
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7 hours ago, Jinxed said:
I have a crazy idea.. How about instead of having the ore automatically brought to the container, we have to search for it ourselves... Instead of the ore being generic to an entire hex, NQ could hide the ore deep underground and then players would have to dig and search for it... Then you could use some kind of special tool that transfers the ore to your container.
The ore should be difficult to find so we could use some kind of scanner or radar that tells us the distance... And a skilled miner could then triangulate the location of the ore by moving about and judging the distance.Mining units weren't about changing how mining worked as much as it was to solve a world problem of too many holes. Mining should take effort. It should take time. It should be cumbersome. They could have solved this whole mining situation by just creating instanced mining. For people who didn't like the old way of mining, that would have been perfect for the economy. Don't like it? Don't do it. Leave the market to the people who want to be miners. Don't like to build? Don't do it! Leave industry to those they do. Etc. Making everything easy isn't the answer to long term survival. Most people will get bored.
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45 minutes ago, Haunty said:
People argued against the old way of mining too and suggested ideas like mining units, so who should NQ listen to?
They should be able to best decide if they have long term, big picture expectations and goals for the game. You can't make changes just to keep your beta testers playing. The small group of people who play have almost no power to alter the future of this game's success or failure. NQ needs to ask themselves, how many players do we want actively playing this game? As far as the economy goes, if we want a million active players, which form of mining or industry can the market support that allows for competition through supply and demand and not simply material over saturation?
I feel like some of the long term implications of changes aren't being fully discussed or thought through. This game will die without specialization and a bigger risk vs reward system in my opinion. The everyone can do everything as long as they are around long enough model is lazy. Not everyone deserves a trophy no matter what activity they do in the game.
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1 hour ago, kulkija said:
Free markets don't exist right now, because Market places are run by NPC (Aphelia)
Once the bots go, the market is going to be so saturated with lower tier ore that it won't be worth the cost of fuel to fly to the market and sell it. New players are going to have a terrible first time user experience trying to figure out how to make money.
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I think Dual Universe has made two terrible decisions moving into launch.
First is the mining units. By allowing anyone to simply purchase mining units to gain all tiers of ore passively, they are going to flood the market with raw ore. Mining should be an art, and something that people spend time doing. Mining should be a career! To allow anyone to mine any material (albeit some more skilled than others) you take away from people who want to be miners. Obtaining ore should be a time consuming process that people have to dedicate themselves to. By simply having enough money to set up mining operations anywhere by dropping a few constructs, you take the profitability of mining away from others who want to focus on that career. The mining unit was a terrible choice. I've suggested it before in another thread that if you want to do away with permanent holes in the ground, make mining happen in instances. There are so many ways you can do this, and make materials discoverable based on mining skill. Make mining a real profession!
Secondly, getting rid of schematics is a terrible idea. For those of us that played after schematics came about, it really isn't a big deal. In fact, I love having schematics in the game. It makes zero sense that everyone can create anything without an investment in time. Without having some barriers to industry the market will be flooded with product which is a devastating effect on their value. Industry should be hard. It should take a lot of time, dedication, and investment to be effective at. If anyone can make anything, why even have a market?
If you destroy mining and industry by not making them a focused profession, than what is left for players? Building ships so you can fight over space territories. Well, guess what, not everyone wants to do that! Some people enjoy being a support role. Producing things that an organization needs and providing value for their time. If you make everything stupid easy, the game will fail. I guarantee you.
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If you want Industry to be a path, then it should be something to work towards, either monetarily or through discovery and research. For people who want to make Industry a primary function of gameplay, there needs to be something that requires work to produce. To simply allow and industry unit to make anything of it's level is just silly and will flood the market with unskilled items to sell. The only people I know that got mad with the introduction of schematics are people who built massive industry with little to know true effort. It should be something that requires a ton of work, and yes a ton of grinding to be successful.
Industry will be the heart of the market. and if everyone can do it on a whim, the market will be useless.
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55 minutes ago, Taelessael said:
This seems like an excellent idea for players that enjoyed mining the old way (I am, admittedly, not one of them). It does however have a few potential issues that should probably be addressed.
1) Moving a dynamic construct in and out of an instanced environment is just asking to blow something up when physics tries to load in before the world is finished loading (as it is prone to occasionally do). The solution I would propose for this would be to require the construct moving in and out of the instance be on a static core instead, with the nodes sizes appropriately increased so as to adequately compensate the miner for the cost and time of temporarily claiming the hex.
2) Moving any construct in and out of an instanced environment is asking for someone to find out the hard way how the game handles something parking itself where something will load back in once the instance closes. To solve this I would propose that the construct be cloned in to the instance instead of moved entirely, with the original remaining where it was in a non-useable state (as though it were tokenized). When the instance is closed the original construct's inventory would be updated to match that of the clone that had been in the instance and the original becomes capable of being interacted with again.3) Some people like to mine cooperatively, as such I would propose that the new scanner element that allows detection of the instanced ore also serve as a method for bringing additional players (with rdms permission) in to the instance when it opens.
4) Allowing different players to obtain different results on a single hex in a way that regularly quickly resets itself is just asking for a 200-man org to roll themselves in T5 ore mined repeatedly from only a few hexes. As such I'd propose that any given hex leads to the same instance of that hex for all players. The higher level skills would still allow for the detection of better ores and larger percentages of the ore that are actually there that lower skilled players may not detect, but the total ore available of all types actually present in the instance would be the same for everyone and set when the hex was regularly reset instead of when scanned. Resets would presumably occur on a weekly basis as with asteroids.
5) When atmospheric pvp is implemented, anything causes the mining-construct to become pvp-flagged outside the instance should also immediately close the instance, ejecting all players within and appropriately placing ore mined in to the cargo of the mining construct's cargo as was previously suggested. After the pvp flag expires the construct should be able to open the instance again allowing the miners to pick up where they left off.
6) The use/operation of elements on the mining-construct that are unrelated to mining within the instance should not be possible while inside the instance in order to limit potential errors that could result (you only need the mining-container platform in the instance, factories, mining units, and things with scripts can stay outside). Likewise, the deployment of new constructs should be prevented within the instance for the same reasons.
7) Asteroids were added to be something people can pvp over, however if the same rewards can be reliably found somewhere safe it tends to kill pvp. Because of this, I'd propose that higher-tier ores have an extremely low spawn-rate on planets where atmospheric pvp isn't enabled (well below what they were previously when old-style mining was a thing) so that the potential safe-availability of said high-tier ores does not remove the reason for pvp players to pvp over the high-tier asteroids.
I'm sure I'm missing something else, but I can post it later if I think of it. Any thoughts?
I'm mostly a solo player, but I'll add my 2 cents where I can.
1) I don't know enough about game mechanics to have an opinion on this, so I'll trust your critique. But in the long run, I would hope the game would be stable enough that this wouldn't be an issue.
2) I don't see issue with this
3) Cooperative mining. Perhaps a simple "group" system could be the solve for this, like other MMO's, grouping up before heading into an instanced dungeon or raid.
4) I can see where having large groups of people scanning the same hex could produce better results, but if the hex is randomized, and perhaps doesn't have any T3 or at all in that particular instance, or just a small quantity that doesn't justify a large group effort, I would think it's a waste of time sending many people to one hex than it is to send a large number of people to several hexes at the same time to maximize the chance of finding the biggest node. There is a chance that one hex might be overlooked by many looking for gold, but the same hex might be mined by someone who is fine with it having a large hematite node for a quick sale to keep up with taxes. But I do agree, there is a chance that if too many hexes get constantly overlooked, over time, there might be a problem where a planet gets flush with hexes that don't contain a high amount of desired ore. There may be the need of "refreshing" hexes by going in, mining a bit, and leaving so it will reset again. There has to be some sacrifice to find the big score.
5) I don't know much about the implementation of atmospheric PVP, but it seems to me, it would be better to wait for someone to be flush with ore and leave an instance and have to travel back to safety rather than disrupting an instance and get nothing for your PVP efforts because they haven't even reached a node yet.
6) there should be no deployment of any construct inside the instance besides the construct you enter with. If you go in with a medium container, that is what you have. If you go in with 4 large containers, there you go. I agree that you should not be able to set up an operation inside of an instance.
7) Asteroids being something people can be able to PVP over is only somewhat true. It was a possible solution to making permanent holes in planets causing rendering problems. Asteroids still provide a larger guarantee to find ore that you are searching for and come with a bigger risk. With DU introducing control over space sectors for resources, there will be plenty to fight over in space.
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Level the playing field whether you are a solo player or part of a large corporation. The current problem with mining, even with the small player base we have now, is that mining areas with higher tier nodes are quickly overrun leaving most others out of being able to set up mining units worth anything of consequence. Though I still enjoy setting up mining units, I miss the old days of digging holes and searching for the nodes. I do understand why they had to get rid of it however. Asteroids! Well, that's cool for the people who are here early after reset but diminishes quickly, especially in safe zones.
I propose keeping territory scanners for general area ground content like they are doing right now for the purpose of placing mining units, but add a secondary scanner with a shorter scan duration that is designed to try and find concentrated pockets of minerals. The ability to find mining nodes of tier 1 would be common place, but the higher your scanner skills increases the chances of finding larger nodes. Then for every tier, the chances of finding nodes at all gets harder and harder but the ability to find them and the size of the node would once again be based on your scanning skills.
When nodes are discovered, you can get the option to open an instance, you and your cargo ship enters the instance, and you can mine away. The instance would only be open for a set duration (24 hours?) and once the timer is up, or you leave the instance, it is gone forever. This way there are no permanent holes in the world, the players that invest heavy in scanning skills will have the highest chance of finding valuable ores (as it should be), and mining goes back to being an exploration again.
A system would have to be put in place where the possibilities of finding something vary at each territory (just because one person doesn't find the good stuff, doesn't mean someone else with RNG something great at that location) and once and instance is entered and left, that territory will spawn another random chance of regular to valuable ores.
How DU is going to destroy a free market
in General Discussions
Posted
The problem with our two views is that you are thinking about how a small amount of players will have to start over to rebuild the entire economy, and I'm thinking about 2 years from now, if the game is successful at adding the amount of players required to make this game profitable and retaining them. I've been playing since before and after mining units but started playing shortly after schematics were introduced. Having always played with schematics I'm fine with their existence. They make sense. Whether through market purchases or by adding research and development to the game (which would be cooler) the concept of no schematics at all was just dumb and lazy and the people who complained about adding them seem like people who weren't committed to actually have to work for their goals.
Every aspect of this game should be hard. Should require a focus on training, and investment, and time, and effort. That is the ONLY way this game survives the long term unless they basically do away with everything, make the entire focus about PvP, and people just raid and sell stuff to buy bigger faster ships than everyone else. If you make everything about this game easy and make it all about fighting over sections of territory without non PvP players having a significant role, this game will most certainly die. There are better games out there already within that model. This was sold as something different. They need to keep it that way.