Dygz_Briarthorn
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Posts posted by Dygz_Briarthorn
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Dual Universe is primarily horizontal progression, so implants wouldn't be providing astronomical increases in power.
I would expect there to be a limit on how many implants the human body could hold and, that limit is reached, we would have to swap in new implants.
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(The original topic was about the possibility of slavery in DU. We've covered organic slaves as well as inorganic slaves.)
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It's horizontal progression rather than steep vertical progression.
From the gameplay video, it appears that we will have a variety of options for control panels even in a solo ship.
I expect we'll be discovering a variety of types modules to mix and match for various systems, but not quite at the mini-component level.
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"Generally, there are two types of psychiatric disorders that produce psychotic symptoms: schizophrenia and mood disorders, such as bipolar disorder."
The lore indicates Aphelia is schizo, bipolar and manipulative. The devs appear to be hinting that the AI in the lore already has an agenda beyond human control. Not enough info yet to know what the range of robotic options will be. Androids with AI like Aphelia probably won't be easy to enslave, though.
Utility-based AI is unpredictable, but doesn't use RNG.
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Romulans generate artificial quantum sigularities as fuel for their ships. Calling that processing is probably a stretch. That kind of tech wouldn't require mining for fuel.
We could be harnessing solar energy for fuel/"gas" rather than mining. And/or collecting solar energy for power/"electricity".
I think it's more likely that we would be able to harness solar energy while offline than have automated mining while offline.
I think the devs won't want us to be rapidly depleting the resources we mine from worlds.
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Builders will not Lua-script sentient AI from scratch, but we know that the lore already includes AI, like Aphelia.
What we don't know is how that translates to robot or android bodies. And we don't know whether the AI in the lore have sentience and initiative.
Whatever form(s) of AI we have, it's likely that players will be able to tweak it to some degree.
Utility-based AI don't predict people's reactions in the manner you suggest - rather, they make decisions based on their current emotional states and desires.
Storybricks and other utlity-based AI are designed with a wide range of emotion states, goals, desires and urges. In humans, hormones are the mechanism for initiating changes in emotional states and urges - puberty is the onset of increased hormonal activity. True. But that has nothing to do with AI.
We don't have enough info to determine whether Dual Universe lore includes safeties to prevent AI from "going off the rails". Just because Asimov chose that for his fiction does not mean that Novaquark will use that concept for their fiction.
Again, you need to research Storybricks, Versu and Revival. Utility-based AI are capable of making choices and taking actions that have not been predefined.
For some reason you are stuck thinking that Asimov's vision of AI programming is still relevant today. It's really not.
Do we know that the programmers of the AI in the Dual Universe lore were in their right minds when they designed the AI?
Do we know the initial code hasn't been modified or corrupted during the 10K years we've been in stasis?
The devblog states that there is something schizo and bipolar about the Aphelia. it's not just that she's adapting - she's also manipulating Sohan.
We don't know whether the devs intend the AI in DU lore to merely be servants or if they've planned an AI rebellion to take place.
You are just making baseless assertions due to your obsession with Asimov.
Again,you may find that that highly sophisticated chatbot of yours has suddenly decided to abandon you or destroy you.
Utility-based AI is designed with dynamic emotions and desires and urges. We don't know if Novaquark is planning to use utility-based AI for their NPCs.
And even if they do, we don't know whether they would extend their model for sentience to inorganic NPCs as well as organic NPCs.
But, it's possible they will. If they do, we can anticipate a revolt at some point in order to introduce more tensions into their narrative.
If they don't extend sentience to the AI of DU lore, the AI won't have the competence to be considered slaves.
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I think there will be a restriction on how Lua interacts with elements that prevents automated mining - especially while we're offline.
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https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/296-devblog-territory-control/?p=946
My impression is that we will be pushed to travel interstellar space as we deplete worlds of resources.
Apparently, we will be able to set up TUs in space... I'm guessing the range of Arkification for a bubble territory in space will be quite controversial.
Part of the challenge of the game will be maintaining a safe zone for months or years.
Once we move past a solar system, we should be able to find remote locales off the beaten path.
But, who knows what kinds of scanners people will discover or develop.
It may be that marauders eventually come hunting your world for resources or other loot. And I expect there to be a means for rivals to de-Arkify territories.
You'll just have to try to acquire a new Arkification token before others encroach on your territory.
- Halo381 and guttertrash
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I think asteroids was a separate question from exploring deep space?
I'm expecting asteroids within solar systems that can be mined to be relatively common. Seems like asteroids in deep space would be rare, yes.
Safe zones surrounding traveling spaceships seems unlikely.
My impression is that the devs want to allow us to set up new safe zones on worlds, but not on ships.
Great question for the devs!!
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Are we mining fuel in DU or do we acquire fuel by some other means?
Any created structure is a construct - that doesn't inherently mean mining constructs will be capable of automated mining while players are offline.
I doubt the the devs will be able to keep up with the desired limits on expansion if players can use constructs to auto-mine even while offline.
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Pushed; not forced.
I didn't say anything about fault - I said what I prefer.
Since I'm sharing my preference, there is really nothing for you to argue.
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I didn't say anything about "being forced".
Rather I said "too much pressure pushing people to spend"...
I've told you several times that I'm not competitive - I am a cooperative player... so what entices you to spend and what entices me to spend will likely be very different things.
Landmark pissed a bunch of people off by implementing an outfit for free in a couple of basic colors and then putting favored colors, like black, up for sale for like $10 in the cash shop.
I have spent real money in cash shops to help guildies acquire gear before - and I see possibilities for that in DU as well.
Or especially to help acquire rare textures for spaceships.
My experience is that cash shops have me spending more per month than I would on a monthly sub.
Hence, I prefer monthly sub rather than cash shop.
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Not necceserily. The Cash Shop should sell only cosmetic items or funky chroma packs - or as I suggested as an addition, voice pakcs. You do not need voice-packs or chroma packs, they offer no advantage over you in PvP or PvE. They are simply pretty things that people may want, and as the devs seem to explain it, if you pay with money to extend your playtime, you get the same money as Cash Shop coins. It's a good concept good sir.
I am fashion over function, so my statement still stands.
I dunno why you try to refute my statements as if I have no experience playing MMOs.
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I have a feeling that it's not going to be possible to have automated mining that continues to run while players are offline.
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The opposite of Lawful is Lawless. The opposite of chaotic, is conservative ( by the definition of the greek word that is). Cognitive dissonance is not a subject of binary thinking, or more accurately, duality of opinions. It's stemming from holding contradicting beliefs.
I never claimed you consider giving money makes you a good person, I only quoted you on "giving things to people I like because that's what friends are for". I pointed to the fact you consider the U.S. being socialist because they have welfare and healthcare, which if that was true, it makes you sound less Stallin and more McCarthy.
Meritocracy is about the worthy being ahead, not the ones who have the most money. Spartans had meritocracy, the best and bravest soldiers made up to be "the warrior king" while the one who could run the state better, as by the facts, was deemed "the political king" and even he was callled before a senate to be reigned so he wouldn't turn into a dictator. That last part, that is meritocracy good sir. It's the only redeemable aspect of the presidential democratic system that plagues most western nations. If a president snorted cocaine off his/herr dashboard a parliamentary/senate committee would have him/her impeached and replaced. Merit SHOULD be power. Unless you consider the worth of a person to lead resides in how much money said person can spend on a political demagoging campaign to get voted and then do nothing other than serve the corporate overlords that funded that candidate.
And there's a sort of black humor joke where I'm from.
"What does a commie and a christian have in common?"
"Both support something that both wouldn't apply if it came to them."
For most people of such ideologies/beliefs at least, it's a charade. I've never seen God-loving christians turn the other cheek, nor I've ever met a commie who viewed anyone else outside the party as nothing more than "lesser". My experiences though.
Oh, the lore A.I. is named the greek word for "Naivety". Boy, I love them englsh speaking authors that go for the greek-word juggular to make a foreshadow in the size of an eighteen-wheeler freight train in the middle of the suburbs.
I claimed the exact opposite of what you said on Asimov's idea of A.I. . I did say that no modern A.I. architect would allow for the A.I. to do anything outside its parameters.
And please, don't mention StoryBricks, Everquest Next is still a fresh wound :'( .
And storybricks is based on an algorithm, the A.I. responds depening on external factors and mathematical boundaries. It's at best, a Virtual Intelligence, notice the word Virtual, it's a fake.
Sure, the behavior can be convincing and that's because the algorithm is tuned to perfection. And in story-bricks an A.I. would not go into random tantrums or have a violent outrage for no reason. And unless they discover new mathematical principles, coding an Intuitive Matrix, is not a thing of the realm of computer science facts. And I hope so, because a free willed A.I. would have one tour of the Deep Web (like Ultron did in the Avengers movie) and then pretty much declare "yup, screw these savages, giant rock from space it is." And I do not joke about that. an A.I. the way you speak of it at least, is an A.I. program with intuition/initiative principles. Humans are curious and experience the world, very, very slowly. A machine is a machine. It's faster than you. It could have a quick read of the internet in a day.
But I'm overthinking here, deep web would be its stop for validating eliminating us as a species. It would have reached to its decision on a stop by the Youtube comment section.
So no, unless we discovered a new mathematical principle that dictates a variable can be a number of its own accord, not abiding by pre-existing variables, and never be an imaginary or irrational number, then no, An A.I. android would be an anthropoid chatbot. Not a person.
Um. Noooo.
I'm using RPG alignment terms. The opposite of Lawful is Chaotic. The opposite of Good is Evil and then in the middle of each of those spectrums is Neutral.
This is an MMO forum, so the focus is about games.
A "duality" of thought suggests binary options. And I'm telling you that I am Chaotic enough to hold more than two positions of thought simultaneously without dissonance.
I haven't said anything about being Stalinist or Marxist so I don't understand why you mention that.
Socialist and communist ideals are difficult to maintain for large groups because, in Western society, it only takes a few lazy or greedy people in the group to make it all fall apart. Seems to be more sustainable in tribes.
But, again, the focus of this discussion is on games - and in MMOs, the guilds that I participate in start as communist and occasionally drift to socialist if it becomes so large that we get some strangers who start emptying the free-for-all bank without ever depositing anything there.
Meritocracy is an addition that you are bringing to the discussion and attributing to me for some reason - but I've never been associated with a meritocratic group.
Hippie/socialist/commie means I value sharing my resources with everyone for free - because I like everyone to be equal and free from obligations. Since you state that meritocracy is about people being ahead - that has nothing to do with me since I don't care about who is ahead. I am non-competitive.
Modern AI architects do allow AI to do things outside of their programmed parameters.
Storybricks isn't based on an algorithm. Which is why the devs would not be able to predict the outcome when they repeat a trial.
Or why when you play Versu, the AI will not respond exactly the same way even if you try to make the exact same decisions when you replay a story.
Intuitive matrix is a different matter than designing AI that has initiative.
Again, the focus of this discussion is about how AI in Dual Universe might respond to being treated as slaves.
We have to know how self-aware the AI in DU lore is intended to be and whether they've been designed with their own desires and emotional states.
The stories that have been shared so far indicate that the AI on the Arkships adopt the personalities of people close to their patrons.
We don't know if those AI have individual personalities or personal agendas. but, if they mimic the voice of actual people - it seems likely they will be able to adopt full personalities - especially over 10K years of shepherding humans.
AI can model initiative - well enough to choose to escape slavery. That's not the same thing as being intuitive. Intuition isn't necessarily a requirement to escape from slavery.
You may think that you have a loyal chatbot and discover one day that that chatbot chose to escape while you were distracted.
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What you consider straight arrow and what I consider straight arrow are probably two different things.
You seem to be referencing Good/Bad, while I'm referencing Lawful/Chaotic.
Cognitive dissonance may be an issue for some one who has a binary mindset. My perspective is considerably more chaotic than that.
Hmmn. I don't believe I said anything about giving money with being a good person. Especially, since my preference would be to not have a monetary system at all. I prefer to barter.
Meritocracy is about power. I don't really care a whit about meritocracy. I value freedom; not power.
I doubt that you live in a country run by true communists - what you mean is that you live in a country run by people who espouse communist ideology - that doesn't mean they properly adhere to the ideology. Much like Middle Eastern "democracy". Or pedophile priests running a church.
Regarding I-Robot, you have a faulty assumption that modern AI would be programmed with Asimov's core principals.
It's highly unlikely that AI in Dual Universe will be. That is an archaic vision of programming.
If you have followed StoryBricks or Versu or Revival... you should have a better understanding of how AI can be created that essentially takes action and responds to players based on the emotional state of the AI, its desires and how players treat it.
We will have to learn more about Dual Universe lore regarding AI?
Does Aphelia have Stella's personality for does the AI merely mimic Stella's voice?
Will DU NPCs have tags/Storybricks that portray initiative?
Not enough info yet.
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1: We won't be able to use voxelmancy to create our own weapons and gear.
2: Weapons and gear will basically be elements provided to us by the devs.
3: That doesn't mean that everyone throughout the universe will be using the exact same weapons or wearing the exact same gear. The devs have mentioned discovering alien ruins - which means it's likely we will be discovering a variety of alien technology and designs that can be used to augment weapons and gear.
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I find it strange that someone would site science fiction to try to explain science fact.
Especially science fiction that is 50+ years old.
With regard to AI in Dual Universe, we would have to know how much autonomy those kinds of constructs are intended to have.
If you'd ever played the AI game called Versu, you'd have a better understanding of the possibilities of AI being autonomous enough to rebel and free themselves from "slavery". We would need to know how NPCs and AI are designed in DU to know whether they could act with enough "free will" to escape bondage. Not enough info about NPC behavior planned for DU to make an informed decision.
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"Marx supported political parties that called themselves "Communist". These "Communist" parties considered themselves to be a sub-set of the "Socialist" parties."
"In a way, communism is an extreme form of socialism."
---http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism
Even the US is both capitalist and socialist at the same time.
It is generally expected that a communist government will replace a socialist government on the journey from capitalism to communism.
An individual can be communist while supporting a socialist organization. Ideologically, I support both socialism and communism. And those are the kinds of relationships I foster.
I'm also Chaotic. A lawful person might not be able to be both socialist and communist at the same time, but I can be.
I'm about as far away from a straight arrow as one can get.
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I think the devs are already expecting crews to be configured as you suggest - and still it will be a lock-on system for ship combat.
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You haven't heard of Loot Councils? Man you are lucky. When my guild went into ICC 25M Heroic, the Loot Councils were the rage. You guys rolled Need and Greed on items? Nice one, I wish to have seen the QQ going.
And stop withe straw-man arguements please. Progression and Voxel gameplay has nothing to do with creating a Skinner's Box within an organisation/guild/faction. You can call it DKP, SpaceCoins or Honorable Brony Patch, if it's a award that can be redeemed later on for something and it's an award claimed for doing something over and over again, that's called a job and jobs that are providing you enough to sustain you but not enough to make you wanna leave, is wage-slavery. And there are many sociopaths (as you might have noticed on this topic) that are actively seeking slavery in the game and they will use the Skinner method to achieve it.
And you seem to be a very... uhm, straight shooting arrow kind of guy, no cunning involved, so here's a tip for free.
A lion's great strength is its mass and teeth.
A cheetah's is its speed.
A human's is its canning nature.
When you use force to make people your slaves, you end up with a rebellion. When you convince people to give up their free will, then you get McDonalds popping-up everywhere,
And you are the kind of people the machines will one day conquer, because you seem to think that doing the same quest in WoW , day in day out, to get those same gold rewards is tots fine, but a player? Giving you a quest?
THAT'S ABSURD. That's like some commie scheme!
That's like some french guy came up with the idea of a sandbox game, with emergent gameplay, a fleshed out organisation and economic system and wanted to make a voxel game based around it with thousands of players on the same server! Pffft, I mean, you wouldn't go and post your opinions on that forum right? You don't want emergent gameplay, you want NPCs with a blue question mark over their heads, giving you quests, rather than actual players, handing you jobs for a paycheck.
Like it or not, there's going to be wage-slavery, because friends are going to play together and take missions together. Because the greatest fantasy in sci-fi games, is the mercenary kind of fantasy. Call it a smuggler, a hired gun, or a miner, people are going to set up a scheme to leash people to their organisation. And you also seem to underestimate the power of a habbit. Expect big organisations to be run by sociopaths. They always do.
Let's keep any further debate in PM. Nobody got to put up with our dispute over what qualifies as slavery.
Never heard of loot councils.
I would not have continued to play with a group that had loot councils.
And, I'm a hippie/commie/socialist who almost always rolls greed because I am not a capitalist. Nor am I competitive. I am a co-operative player.
Voxel game play has everything to do with this topic because voxels provide us with the means to gather resources and create own gear and food.
We can survive just fine in safe zones if we wish to be free from slavery. It will not be possible to enslave players in Dual Universe.
I could go through line-by-line and destroy your arguments one-by-one, but, it's not worth the effort.
What you describe isn't slavery.
Taking on a quest is a choice - slaves don't have the freedom to refuse a task they they're given.
If people wish to form relationships in Dual Universe where they work for other people to gain rewards, they will have the freedom to do so. But that isn't slavery.
And... I'm done.
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My proposed idea: Prisoner of War.
In-game mechanic: PvP
Objective: To obtain prisoners during PvP battles to gain a desired resource. Either currency, resources, or simply a strategic negotiating tool to gain land.
How could it work: In order to be able to obtain a prisoner, you first need to make a Capture Unit. This will enable the obtaining of one prisoner per unit, and each unit will not be easy to make or acquire. Reason being, if they are too easy to make, then too many people will be taken as prisoner, which isn't ideal, and should probably only be reserved for special circumstances. It would also ensure organizations only use a Negotiation Unit when it is a strategic necessity.
I envision a Capture Unit to work much like a ball and chain. In that, when placed and activated it can target the desired player, and essentially hold them in place, moving only when the player in control of the Capture Unit, enables them to move, and move only where the controller moves.
The Capture Unit could come in two parts. A larger element of it could reside at a base. Much like a cryo-chamber. When captive has been taken by the mobile portion of the unit, which you would carry on you, they can be teleported essentially, to the cryo-prison chamber and held there.
Now, no player would want to be held indefinitely, there needs to be a limit. Long enough for ransom bartering to be effective, but not too long. If it's too short it would be ineffective.
If no ransom is agreed, there needs to be a penalty to the prisoner. That penalty, in my view, would need to be harsh enough to prompt an organization to want to rescue their comrade. So at the end of the countdown limit, if no ransom deal is reached, the prisoner must die.
Possibly resurrect at the location they were captured, or less harshly, at their own location.
The devs would never implement a mechanic like that.
Removing player agency like that would cause to many people to rage quit.
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The point is that nobody is gonna enroll in an organisation for "teamwork, fun and the Allioth dream" good sir. They'll want a pay, which is why many hope for a salary system. You gotta create insentive for a guy to not bail on your organisation. They already said that founding members of an organisation will be treated as shareholders. Prepape for some heated chairmen councils
Well, I am someone. That's why I enrolled in COPS: for "teamwork, fun and the Alioth dream."
I don't want pay. I don't need incentive beyond having fun, altruism and enjoying the beauty of the created constructs to grind resources for Builders I like.
That's what friends are for.
Automated Mining
in General Discussions
Posted
That assumes that we will have droids capable of equipping drills.
If the devs wish to prevent offline automated mining, all they have to do is implement code that requires player characters' manual interaction.
We will most likely need to have dev-crafted elements in order to mine. And those elements can be dev-coded with restrictions that not only prevent offline mining but also prevent players from modding Lua scripts that would override those restrictions.