Saul Retav
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Posts posted by Saul Retav
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The game is a sandbox MMORPG. without a creative mode. If you want infinite resources this is not the game for you, that would completely ruin economy and the gameplay, since the players wouldn't even go out of their base if bots can mine for them.
No one said anything about infinite resources. Although, technically resources will be infinite because the universe itself is infinite. You missed the point.
I could see some limited forms of automation being introduced later in the form of an expansion a few years after launch. For instance, the could be certain pieces of equipment that would enhance mining, within certain limits.
Initially though, if people could automate mining it would cause a lot of problems in the economy. For starters, if the amount of materials in the economy was to rise at a much faster rate than the amount of currency (e.g. through automated mining) the the currency would suffer massive deflation. It would also cause there to be either a reduced competition for resources or an extreme competition for resources. For example, if everyone was able to mine all their own materials there wouldn't need to be any competition for resources (like trade or war). On the other hand, if people were tearing through resource deposits faster than they could be discovered, warfare would go through the roof as people fight to control every last bit of resources.
I'm not suggesting anything too drastic. Using the phrase "free automation scripting" was a mistake on my part. Everything should have it's limits, but for a science fiction game those limits should at least try and be realistic (note: only being able to mine by hand is highly unrealistic).
Mining 24/7 is just a bad idea. -1
Everyone will abuse it and mine 24/7, using ask and bot like mechanics. Crashes the market
Turret automation will only lead to lone wolves, flying with their bot mined super-extreme ship. It enforces solo play
Bad idea
Plus it's completely against emergent gameplay
Mining "24/7" for an individual will be impossible anyways (due to server restrictions, automated scripts won't be able to run without an authorized player present).
Let's forget combat automation for now.
The ability to use automated industrial processes for mining is in no way "against emergent gameplay." If carelessly implemented, yeah, it would suck (almost as much as mining everything by hand). But it can be implemented thoughtfully, in a way that supports emergent gameplay and discourages automation abuse.
Have you played rust by chance?
There was a point where players could build and place both a Quarry and a Pumpjack. They could pump crude oil, refine it, use it to fuel a quarry, and get all of the materials they need without leaving their walled base, assuming their base strattled the line between desert (where you could find oil), and any other biome (where you could get metal and stone). In the beginning it seemed like a great idea.
Then the big clans would build their walls, place their jacks and quarries, and never leave their base except to get blueprints and raid. It led to FAR fewer player interactions. Sure in theory someone could raid them, but automation allowed the largest clans to have many many layers of heavy stone walls and keep them reinforced. Automation removed a primary play element from the game, mainly players going out to collect resources, interaction, and generally killing each other.
Solo players without much free time wince a bit when they hear mining can't be automated. I feel you there, when I discovered the minecraft Quarry mods I was delighted to srtip-mine automatically. This might be necessary for the game's health though, because if large orgs can automate each process of ship production on a wide scale, combined org strength will make solo play completely irrelevant. A big org could lose a dozen capital ships in a raid and not care because their production line might produce 6 per day between 17 planets without a player spending a minute mining a thing. That's not an MMO, that's an Realtime Strategy Game.
Was the problem in your Rust example really automation, or the result of an infinite resource (crude oil)? If the clans had run out of oil they'd have had to employ a different strategy and, one way or another, be vulnerable to attack, right? It does sound like a messy situation and I'm genuinely curious as to what the contributing factors were.
I was following along with your last paragraph thinking, "6 capital ships per day between 17 planets united under a common alliance? Heck yes! That level of interstellar warfare and player organization would be awesome!!" until I saw, "without a player spending a minute mining..." You see, I think you're missing the point. There would be players mining. Maybe not the millions of miners that might be required to keep up with that sort of operation if they were limited to mining by hand. But instead, at that point in the game, you'd have a bunch of players all working together in mining corporations, assembling, disassembling, repairing, and transporting mining equipment; transporting and storing fuel for the equipment; scripting, rescripting, and troubleshooting the equipment; transporting, storing, and selling mined minerals. And those are just the technical jobs I can come up with off the top of my head; you'd also need managers to orchestrate and organize the employees, and, if the org was big enough, you'd need upper-level managers to organize and direct the lower-level managers. That's what I see as "emergent gameplay" and player cooperation.
To achieve this level of emergence would probably require certain game mechanisms:
- Frequently used elements eventually requiring repair/replacement.
- Abiding, to a degree, by the law of conservation of energy and the law of conservation of mass (AKA "no infinite material or energy sources").
- And there's probably something else, but it's 1:20am and I'm going to bed.
- Wilks Checkov and satoshi
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As far as scripting weapons fire, is it expected that in times of war a commercial hub is always going to have players manning the anti-ship batteries just in case there's an attack?
Automation would also have it's vulnerabilities with the future hacking mechanics that'll be introduced. It would be a bad idea to build a fully automated facility when a skilled hacker may be able to shut it down himself. That would be a result of competing organizations trying to gain an upper hand, of course.
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This is a sci-fi universe that, as far as I can tell, is focused on the development of interstellar, complex, player-based societies. Why wouldn't you have automated mining?!
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Obviously scripts need to be limited by the elements that are being scripted, but taking away such practicle mechanics as mining scripts seems like a big mistake that'll really limit the games potential.
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The devs have said that automated mining will probably not be an option. As a student of business and economics, here's what I think:
ABSTRACT:
Limiting script automation for both mining and weapons fire will greatly limit the capacity for economic growth and in-game innovation.
The mining industry, for example, will start out with individuals mining for minerals and directly selling them to other players or on an open market. It will eventually evolve into a number of mining corporations that will be able to provide minerals more cheaply through an organized workforce and semi-automated processes. This is inevitable, as it should be. But why limit the mining industry to this level of business innovation? By disallowing further automation, yes, the market for mundane repetitive tasks like mining by hand will be preserved. But what would happen to the broader job market in a simulated economy where automation is unregulated? It would expand exponentially.
How would automated mining exponentially expand economic growth and job availability? Well, the whole purpose of automation is to reduce labor costs, to reduce the price of goods (raw minerals, in this case), so that, in a competitive free market economy, businesses can stay... competitive. Inevitably, reducing the price of raw minerals allows other businesses, further up the chain of production, to increase production and lower their prices (competitive market, remember). These reduced prices further up the chain of production lead to increased demand and, therefore, new market opportunities.
STORY TIME:
John Smith is a miner. He mines steel all day for Mineral Corp, gets a commission based on how much steel he mines, and Mineral Corp sells the steel to spaceship manufacturing facilities. One day Mineral Corp decides to cut costs by using automated mining drones. Nooooo!!!! Curse you Human Ingenuity!!
Let's look at what just happened:
In order to cut costs, mining corporations are now buying automated mining drones. This new demand for drones is providing jobs for programmers, industrial designers, manufacturers, and even truckers (to transport all the extra minerals that are being more cheaply produced and are increasingly in demand by all these industries)!
Back to John Smith:
John lost his job to robots. The Luddite fear that soulless computers will replace all the honest employees has come true! *cough cough* But when John's at home, drinking away his sorrows with some Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster, he opens up the classifieds and is shocked to see hundreds of jobs available that weren't there yesterday! Not only jobs related to the production of mining drones, but many seemingly unrelated jobs!
Where did these other jobs come from?
They came from the steel being cheaper. Businesses that use that steel for product production, like spaceships and buildings, can now sell their products more cheaply. Having cheaper spaceships increases the demand for spaceships because more people can afford them. In order to meet that increased demand, spaceship manufacturers must increase their production by hiring more employees (new jobs! Yay!). So now, even though less people are mining by hand, more people are building spaceships (as well as countless other things)!
John Smith may not be mining anymore, but he has a new job now, that pays more, and he can enjoy a cheaper cost of living thanks to those beautiful automated mining drones.
BASIC FORMULA:
Automation = reduced cost.
Reduced cost + competition = reduced price.
Reduced price = increased demand.
Increased demand = increased production.
Increased production = increased job availability.
Automation + competition = increased job availability.
Can we please have free automation scripting?
(I may touch on automated weapons-fire later)
- Kuritho, Wilks Checkov and Ralgimanek
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Of course, any good race track would also need high-flying jumps and explosive obstacles.
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Yeah, I was under the impression that the future hacking mechanism would allow stealing constructs.
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As a "Gold Founder," I'm starting the game with 20+ DAC's; about half I'll use for game time, and half I'll sell later (depending on my immediate needs and market fluctuations). I don't want to lose those DAC's! If they're lootable won't I be targeted as soon as I leave the safe Zone? I mean, between my Alpha suit and level 2 pet, wont everyone know I'm a gold founder and just target me as a walking DAC box?
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I suspect (and hope) that any jobs/quests are going to be completely player driven. I mean, the basis for this entire game is human nature. Why circumnavigate the globe? Any number of reasons: to find strategic territorial locations for future power struggles, to find rare resources to sell/use for advanced projects, or just to satiate the hunger of human curiosity.
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Who would retain ownership of such a station?
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I see. Yeah, that makes sense for DAC's.
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Let's explore the life of a DAC:
Devs sell 1 DAC to Player 1 (P1) for $15.
P1's only "profitable" option is to sell it to another player (P2) for something of in-game value (GV).P2 has more options. P2 can trade for GV as well, or he could spend it on 1 month of playtime (1M), or he could sell that DAC to another player (P3) for less than the devs' price (let's say $5) through a third-party platform like paypal.
P3 doesn't really have the option to sell the DAC for $ because it's doubtful he could make any more than what he first paid (exceptions would exist, of course).
Dev: 1 DAC = $15P1: 1 DAC = GV
P2: 1 DAC = GV, or 1M, or $5
P3: 1 DAC = GV, or 1M
So within the DAC system real $ can be made by second-hand DAC owners. I am neither recommending this course of action, nor am I condemning it; just observing.
Did I miss anything?
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When pirates board and attack ships, instead of having prisoners "walk the plank," they can just steal their jetpacks and eject them into the cold, dark, vacuum of space.
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I may start an underground terrorist cult that actively works to dismantle society from the inside out, preventing interstellar colonization at all costs...
"Humankind is a plague. They were a plague back on Earth, ravaging the planet, polluting the water and the air, bringing thousands of species to extinction! And they'll continue to be a plague. First, they'll strip Alioth of all her beauty, mining, burning, and pillaging until there's nothing left but a dead husk. Then, they'll move on to the next Alioth and do the same. Again and again and again and again! Their appetite for destruction is limitless and they will continue to consume the galaxy until there's nothing left. Unless... we can stop them."
"FOR EARTH!!"
Scalable Ship Components
in Idea Box
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