Cheith
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Posts posted by Cheith
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I suspect a wipe will be a must if the game is going to survive. It is one thing if it is a short beta to maintain everything that is there but not for a long beta - the imbalance between the new players and the early beta players is just too large in terms of land grabbed, skills ground, etc.
There are also all the 'never coming back' crowd who have locked up areas that will forever be gone - so unless there is a 'vacated for longer than X timer' a wipe will be an absolute must. If you are not subbing no reason your creation should survive.
I would say, though, if a wipe is going to happen there should be a way of getting constructions back when you have the materials for it. That, imo, would be fair.
Blueprints - dunno - having invested in them I can't say I mind. It is a bit of a grind but then what MMO worth crafting in is not. Just one of those things. It also makes you focus a little on what you should craft. I am all for them being purchasable and I don't think the current prices are totally out of whack. It makes you focus a little on what you want to build yourself outside of the basic stuff.
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6 hours ago, Sabretooth said:
How many times are people going to the markets? and how long are people staying at the market?
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I think its more that some people are spoiled brats (thats right, I said it!), and every small tiny little minute thing that they dont like has to be fixed for them or else they start calling names and cry.
Part of the problem is that the lag can have bad consequences - it can make your ship crash into things if you are unlucky and thus you can lose stuff. Lag is a huge problem in a game where collisions can destroy things. You can literally lag your way to destruction as nothing responds.
You may also go there once every couple of weeks, doesn't mean other people don't go more frequently.
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I second and third the 'parking garage' solution - and removing the clutter of advertising hoardings and containers. I try and buy what I need from market 13 on Alioth as it is closer - sadly stuff is not always there or it is double the price of 6/7. Now I would pay a little more but double is excessive. Still it might give me an opportunity in a while
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19 hours ago, LouHodo said:
So here is an example from two different games that I feel illustrate my point.
Star Citizen, has NPCs which wonder around stations and landing zones, there is no NPC ship traffic outside of NPC mission targets. The NPCs in game often bug out and stand in chairs, t-posing or glitched halfway in the floor or wall. They don't add to the feeling of life, if anything they make it feel more like you are alone. Silent idiotic clones that mindlessly roam around.
Elite Dangerous. Has NPC ships and soon NPCs walking around in stations. They follow pretty scripted routines and are mostly silent. They are a fair bit easier to figure out than players when online but they are not all that life like. They are more like borg drones that silently go about their task. The NPCs in missions are ok definitely better than Star Citizen but they are still pretty easy to tell from an actual person.
I can also tell you both of those games have dedicated years of code work in getting those NPCs working as well as they do now.
Totally get your point - but that is a development problem rather than an NPC problem is it not?
I wouldn't have said the NPCs are there to make you not feel alone, more to give the game some life and some character. The chances of you having enough players to do that is small - especially in a big universe. Even EVE has NPCs buzzing around - and it is definitely one of the more player content, etc, focused games of any size out there.
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On 4/21/2021 at 8:55 PM, IvanGrozniy said:
I see what you mean. That depends of course...
- if we're talking pvp meta ships, no, this statement is not true. Those things are really expensive to build. And they are expensive to repair. I'm not sure people comprehend how much mining and man hours it takes to build one of the golden ships from Boo's Gold Armada. I'm not sure people understand how much it takes to repair them after a "battle". No one wants to lose one of those, so pvp battles tend to be more about whoever gets pushed out into the safezone first, battle of attrition. Additionally, if we talk about piracy as an easy win card, it's not like piracy is profitable, it mostly does not exist and the "piracy" you can do is very aids if you ask me, you'll spend more on fuel and waste more time and quanta pirating than if you were digging holes in the ground and selling to bots.
- I don't think it makes much sense to divide people into pvpers and builders... pvpers are also builders, whereas you're probably talking about a subset of players that are purely builders I'm assuming. PvP builders are just more specifically focused on indy buildings, ship building for pvp, and station building rather than purely builders who want to avoid pvp. Have you looked at the Foundry for example? That is a station built by a pvp group. There are also others, some really fancy.
- Talents don't matter too much in meta pvp, again it's mostly about ship stamina rather than who can shoot further. Repair talents help though, repair engineers are really important in fights. Smart pvp ship builders make ships that last longer and take more shots.... but they also mine a lot in order to repair.
I think we are largely agreeing - the only thing I would add is that, unfortunately, there are those in the PvP world who just like to shoot things and will gang up to shoot things. Destruction for destruction's sake. Sad but true. The game mechanics have to figure out how to deal with that or just decide they don't care. I have dabbled around in enough almost completely open PvP worlds to know how that turns out and will certainly avoid any games that end up in that vein as they are just not fun for me.
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3 hours ago, LouHodo said:
This last part...
No offense but that is the nature of most true sandbox games. You are the content. You create it, your fellow gamers are also part of this experience. Lack of population means less content.
Adding NPCs and PVE does not fix this. Sure for a short time players will come back to try out the new PVE content but will quickly leave after they have done it. Leaving the same issues again of lack of content.
Tl;dr perhaps this is not the game for you.
While I get the point you then need enough players to want to be 'targets' to make some of the game work. Probably not going to happen if you want a game with the diverse characteristics desired. There is nothing wrong or non-sandbox with having NPCs fulfilling the roles that real people playing in a fake universe don't want to do themselves. In the end what you actually want is a vibrant living universe that doesn't get in the way too much for most people most of the time. You want sandbox-ish, in my opinion.
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10 hours ago, HangerHangar said:
Then it would be an empty parking lot simulator.
Better than a lag simulator - which is the markets right now even when it is still empty of actual players.
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41 minutes ago, Revelcro said:
Better suggestion. Once a week during prime time in russia for one hour, the market area becomes a pvp zone with a 10 minute warning.
This problem will sort itself out in one week.
Where is the laugh hysterically button - so true.
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The bots provide your starting cash - on day zero if there were no bots how do you make your first quanta? You can't because you have none and no one else does (assuming the 150K login bribe is not their either and in that philosophy it should not be).
So, day one there is no quanta and no way to earn any. Of course as someone mentioned in a pure player run economy everyone would start bartering and someone would start a bank and then they would create a secure currency and so forth - but it ain't going to happen so we have bots.
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3 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:
I fail to see why permadeath (character death) is brought up in DU context though, it doesn't exist in DU. I'm also not sure what this argument means "they (presumably pvpers) are fine with destroying the creations of others.... but not their own creations (the character itself)"... ?? Character? I don't get it. If someone pvps they are risking their own creations (in DU context, it is their ship / ammo / guns / whatever is on board). Not sure what "their character" has anything to do with it?
In my opinion it is all about time invested - the builder invests significant time on their creations whereas to be good at PvP you (at least partially) have to invest significant time in your character stats. Losing a ship is kind of 'so what'. My other point is folks keep bringing up 'realism' and 'evolution' - well in the real world when you lose in a fight to the death you are done - and from an evolutionary perspective when you lose in a fight to the death you are also at a dead end (excluding progeny of course - which would be a whole other discussion).
3 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:I also fail to see what's going on here... I was merely saying that the whole premise of the game was civilization building. And that the game has nothing to show for it in terms of that particular vision. It's just another mmo tech demo with voxels. As for evolution of the game, sure I'm all for it. And if they are going a different direction they should say so. Until they do the "vision" remains the same and the game makes no sense. Not sure where you see the irony of me failing to recognize possibility of game developing into something else. Currently it isn't developing in any direction whatsoever. We'll see with the upcoming patches though. With new management the game might take a different route. At any rate NQ has a massive recuperation mountain to climb.... more than 20 million dollars later.
All I'm saying is that the source is meh - marketing and visions rarely survive without significant alteration once they hit the burning light of day. And, let's be honest, in the world of building MMOs 20 million is not a lot (sadly). I do agree with you, though, if their direction is changing then they absolutely should say so and preferably why.
I guess also I tend to see PvP proponents counting only in one direction - but maybe we all do that.
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41 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:
Then what the fuck are you even talking about. Stay in the safe zone thats what it's for. We are talking about pvp, and owning territories, and how NQ said now space pvp territory is coming. And how eve tackles those problems. If you dont want to be apart of that stay in the fucking safe zone. Reading comprehension isnt your strong suit I can see.
Ah, the retort of the PvPer - insults. Think you just said it all. I don't want content to be PvP locked. My opinion and I'm entitled to it without some juvenile throwing around insults.
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4 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:
What are you even talking about? This mechanic literally favors the little guy. If it was like Rust the large corps would steam roll all the little guys as they cant stay logged in 24/7. I can site hundreds of examples of this mechanic helping the little guy. I have been a ceo of a 30man wormhole corp (considered very small in eve) and the timers are what make owning player stations worth it. You have no idea what you are talking about. At all.
Sorry, but I know a 30 man corp is considered small in EVE (I did play it for 7 years) - but frankly I don't want to have to be part of some random group of 30 people to enjoy the game the way I wish to - and part of that is logging on when I want to. If you wish to be a slave to the game that is up to you - I want to play when I want to play.
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41 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:
That isnt even remotely true. Like at all. In EvE you get to pick when the timer comes out, with I believe a + or - 2h window. So it essentially a 4hr window of your choosing. So the reinforcement timer will always be during your timezone. And then its. 15min window for armor timer enemy to hit, then 30min window for final hull timer. So no, you dont need 24/7 protection at all. Just during a 30min window of your choosing that is known literal days (plural) in advance.
Regardless of what anyone thinks, this is the fairest way. Because it's a game and people cant be on 24/7. It's worked in eve for decades and DU also being a "persistent universe" should also adopt something similar.
So, you think most people can plan like that? Some people can for sure but the real world isn't that predictable and it basically makes you a slave to the game. No thanks. Also 'worked' means what - some large corporations like it? Also persistent means it stays - and your actions live on - it doesn't mean we need the mechanics of EVE.
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40 minutes ago, blazemonger said:
EVE has no PVP fences outside of NPC stations and the starter systems, PVP is open anywhere. the only thing in place is that in HS the consequences of opening engagement are quite lethal but there is nothing preventing you from engaging in PVP in HS outside of certain death by Concord. But based on the potential payout, that may be a small price to pay.. Which should be the ultimate reason to engage in PVP (or not). There is also plenty of PVP engagements in HS which will only yield you a temporary suspect flag.
IMO NQ should implement consensual PVP within safe zones and use that mechanic to allow players to clean up wrecks and abandoned constructs by adding upkeep for cores which, when it runs out, will open up the construct for PVP/salvage. Interesting twist could be for players who engage in this to get a timed flag opening them up to attack themselves (maybe with exception for Aphelia tiles). Could make for some interesting gameplay, maybe it could be a replacement of the safe zone as a mechanic that will protect you if you are a straight buildier or trader but will impose risk if you choose to go scavenge.
True, from an EVE perspective, nowhere is truly safe - especially if you are hauling large amounts of stuff - but for most people most of the time (especially newer players with no significantly valuable items) you can be pretty much safe in HS. The safety is especially true if you join on of the game's corporations (can't remember what you call them) so you can't be declared on.
I actually agree with the EVE HS mechanics - it is actually pretty close to how the world works - for ship vs ship conflict.
Attacking constructs in a game with player buildings though is a whole other thing - purely practically people will not spend time building interesting stuff if it can be blown up, especially blown up when they are offline, but just blown up in general. That is a whole other thing that I don't think we have a good precedent for anywhere else - in EVE the closest is player owned space stations but you need a 24x7 corporation for the most part to keep one of them.
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11 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:
I'm not sure where you're going with this here... I wasn't even talking about perma death or full loot... I was mainly offering a rebuttal to your statement that "After all if we are being super-realistic you only get to lose at PvP once - and very few folks are up for that.". That statement is simply false.
So, losing at PvP in a more real world is permadeath - you lose you're dead. End of character. I obviously didn't make that clear originally as to where I was going, but the original statement is still true. Most folks aren't up for it - they are fine with destroying the creations of others that took months of effort but not their own creations (the character itself). I have no problem with PvPers except when they decide everyone must participate to have a meaningful game experience. There is just no justification for that - evolutionary or otherwise.
11 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:Kickstarter is important because backers paid a lot of money to support this game, and last I checked JC's "vision" for this game remains the same, this whole game was meant to be a civilization building game with 6 pillars.
This is taken directly from their marketing (timestamped to relevant part):
You're referring to a 2019 marketing presentation? One it is marketing and not reality (imo marketing and reality are only lightly connected). Two visions are just that, visions - things change, visions evolve. Funny you talk about evolution and fail to recognize the possibility in the development of the game. Kickstarter has lots of caveats and as long as a game is delivered that is vaguely in the same ballpark as the marketing they are fine (from a Kickstarter perspective). The fact you personally funded it while relevant for you doesn't really mean that much in the longer term.
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Frankly, no I didn't read it that way. I read it as the current start-up grind is pretty bad (and it is) if you want to do any meaningful manufacturing and build a base and some ships without relying on others to provide things for you - which would still be a grind as you then have to buy everything and go on endless trips back and forward after mining to pay for it all.
Basically - digging for ore is amusing and a little challenge to do efficiently for a while - then there should be an alternative once you get to a certain point.
Of course one could just have them all on the surface just not so obnoxiously obvious and have skills that governed how much you get. Depends on whether or not we need this to be Minecraft with space ships.
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2 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:
Eh... false.... A lot of veeeery popular games should have died by now using this logic, meanwhile the reverse is true. Just look at Rust steam charts for example. For all the hate and dismissal that game gets even from numerous people in this community, it's very much alive and growing. Just one example doesn't prove much, but, there's that. I think people downplay the factors that attract people to games that these people don't agree with....From the Kickstarter (also from numerous JC interviews):
If civilization building does not imply evolution (which is just incremental iteration) then oranges are actually alien eggs. Address the actual points raised in terms of how and why cities are built, because necessity will drive players into one, or to develop one eventually. MMOs typically have hubs for this reason premade by devs for socializing, organizing gear, buying and selling. etc. If the DU universe is to be player generated, then one of the outcomes for a civilization building sci-fi mmorpg is player made cities.
Why does this imply evolution? Because the converse is stagnation. Cities evolve or devolve, that which is preserved is what we call a historical reenactment or a museum. The natural ebb and flow of civilizations involves evolution and devolution, rise and fall of cities / city states / eventually countries of multiple cities / etc.Umm what? So, which hugely popular MMOs have permadeath? Not just full loot PvP but actually once you die your character and all their stuffs are gone? Stats, the lot. Very few - in fact as far as I can figure out none have it as a mandatory feature at present. So, don't think so. The reality is PvPers want realism for everyone but them.
As to Kickstarter - who cares - doesn't mean squat a few years down the road. Games evolve to survive or all the money and the work goes down the drain. Player built civilizations (in a real sense) has to be a joke, or a marketing term anyway. There is nothing in this game (PvP or otherwise) that would provide an evolutionary path to anywhere. I think we are at cross purposes in this discussion as the game has no where near the complexity required to even model a civilization never mind have one evolve.
Could you have small communities, maybe, if the tools were there to do everything yourself and then get into cross-community bartering, etc. Then though you have the completely missing gameplay elements of 24 hour security/policing/etc (and other community provided functions) that are impractical as a player function in a GAME that most people will play a couple hours a day.
I just don't see it - the roadmap certainly doesn't see it. Maybe on the extended roadmap somewhere - but where's the food, the power requirements, water, weather, grizzly bears, etc, etc, etc? The game has to provide the environmental things to make all this happen - it isn't a player thing and it certainly has nothing to do with PvP.
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26 minutes ago, IvanGrozniy said:
A lot of people have built a lot of cities, the problem is.... they are useless. And they are namely useless because they are not necessary. As long as DU remains a game where a stronghold / city is not necessary, it is not a civilization building game.
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All this to say, pvp is necessary as a driving force for civilization generation Along with geographical differences that matter... along with weather... along with horny T-Rexes roaming the jungles of Alioth and eating innocent virgins...
From the front page ...
Create entire cities, giant space stations, massive warships,
underground bunkers or… flying cars!
it is a sandbox - you do what you do within the rules allowed. No mention of evolution - just building.
I am glad you put the smiley face in ... because PvP is not needed for civilizations - what is needed is a common goal (which may be a threat). Probably the closest right now to a civilization building game is Eco where it is a common threat of a meteor, but no PvP the last time I looked.
After all if we are being super-realistic you only get to lose at PvP once - and very few folks are up for that.
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2 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:
Point 4 - nonsense. Among other things, NPCs would probably be flying less than meta ships... various core sizes... various levels of weapons and radars. Why? It's called game design... an element that's completely lacking in PVP... players lack good game design so they make horrible content. Sure, griefers in meta ships are going to find NPCs in non-meta ships boring, but the rest of us might find them an interesting challenge to take on in non-combat oriented ships.
This especially - it is all about game design - and players are terrible at providing main content for the most part. Side shows, yes, but the main content for the bulk of the players it just doesn't happen.
Most people play to be entertained - and getting blasted by 'elite' PvP players or being relegated to the sidelines because you just aren't there in terms of ship build or cash (more to the point) is not entertainment for most.
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7 hours ago, UnscriptedVert said:
I used Sancturary Mooon to mine the rock, gather up the money I need.. then take the FREE shuttle to alioth where I could then start a real base to start the game with.
This - sanctuary is fine to scoop up some starting cash.
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PvP needs to be fenced in if you want a large enough player base - even EVE has its PvP fenced in, or to be more accurate maybe its non-PvP fenced in. If you are looking at a persistent world then the PvP spaces are the out of the way places. The mechanics don't make sense otherwise. The game also has to enforce the safe zones appropriately - there will never be a player run police force that is successful for most players as this is still a game not your life and no one wants to always be 'on'.
But, yes, successful PvP is good for builders as long as there is an easy way to sell your goods - including finished items. I need to be able to sell finished ships on the markets (or ship bundles) for example. This ability would also get rid of some of the clutter around said markets too hopefully.
I also get the whole 'building stories' part of things but in reality that is such a small part of reality for most players. You just don't end up in that many epic battles and I just can't imagine DU at this point having the epic battle ability at this point. It will be hard with the customized ships as they are and destructible parts. The data requirements will be insane!
So yes, but frankly I would say missions, some mining automation - or at least the ability to build semi-automated miners - and a better way of selling what you build are all more important. Also if the lag doesn't get fixed PvP at any scale will be a joke - so lag first!
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Sorry - if you pay your money you have the right to voice your opinion.
Also - move people into PvP space? So, you want targets? That wont last long - what you think folks who run missions want to be shot up by a bunch of griefers? I think there are plenty of examples of that not working littering the dead MMO space.
Missions are there for folks to earn some money when they are either bored of mining or don't like to mine. Not to provide targets. Sigh.
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I am only 13K from one of the second ring of markets on Alioth and am still digging things out from my claim - plenty of ores down there - I am seeing ores down at -700m - you just have to go down then out. Also make sure you train your scanning skills up. Want that scanner radius as big as possible!!
Mega nodes and rares are gone (I have found the holes left!) but still digging up 30K nodes.
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Pretty new to this also so:
a) Yup, could definitely be better documented. You can get there, but it is more work than it should be. Also things like the Navigator core used in the pilot chair etc seem to be missing.
b) Yup, but I suspect no one will ever be happy here - just my opinion have played more than one voxel game. Make it easier and the voxelmasters will whine.
c) Tbh, that is personal taste (as you say to be fair). Almost all MMOs tend to favor the early adopters in same way and almost always based on time played (or in this case subbed and paying attention often enough to switch skills - huge difference between active training and just accumulating).
d) Definitely - though there is stuff in the works - we shall see. Personally doing industry stuff and playing with scratch building things that fly so that is a grind anyway - especially as I am buying most of my own blueprints.
e) It is a beta - so my economy expectations are not high right now. An economy that effectively generates real cash has some issues, not the least of which is any money that comes out is taxable depending on jurisdiction. Not a thing most companies want to touch with a barge pole. Eve had a good theory (imo) where you could at least buy GTC from other players with in game money and play the game for free - ended up in a position to do that for a couple of years as I was generating more in game income than I had a use for.
Have fun!
Why PVP is important to the game.
in General Discussions
Posted
As long as no resources are locked up in the PvP zones - then you are being forced to go if you want to create/build using those resources. And, yes, you can buy it but then you are back to the EVE paradigm where the big corps muscle in, rule the valuable ore zones and this is (mechanic wise) an EVE clone with cool building capabilities.