Cheith

Can we please get some tools to add some vegetation back once we have built a base! Generally you end up flattening or deforming a large area which extends past the perimeter and it would be nice to be able to terraform it to a soil of choice and add back grass, trees, etc!

Hmm ... not sure explorations has to equal good stuff - it could be just that, going places you have never been before. Still exploring. If you remove the opportunities for camping locations maybe - but that was where you would get caught if you were unlucky in EVE - at a camping spot. Once you were in nullsec a different story but getting in could be interesting if you were unlucky.

I think this is important - PvP is a part of the game but it is not PvP centric. It is one part of the game. Indeed you could argue that if it is too big a part of the game some of the other components will fall flat - especially exploration and likely building. I don't think the safe zones are the answer either as that certain locks exploration out for non-PvP players.

You know what folks it doesn't matter how the game was originally advertised or what a five year old Kickstarter campaign said you have a game with a lot of people building stuff in it. Generally creative folks who build nice and interesting things do not do much PvP (not none but not much) and don't expect to intersect much with destructive folks who mainly PvP and don't build much. Frankly I seriously doubt you can build a seamless game for both creative and FFA PvP - so this game either has building in it and the ability to wander round as see what folks have built - or it has good old FFA PvP. You can likely get away with it if you corral the PvP somehow into an appropriate box but without that you just end up with all the creative folks heading off into the distance to play something else. There is either going to be a compromise somewhere or I would imagine one 'faction' is going to largely bail. There is a lot of talk of civilizations but civilizations have rules and like order and predictability. PvP outside of wars sanctioned by the civilizations is generally frowned on and the perpetrators permanently removed from society. That all though sounds like a second job not a game - so I doubt that will fly either and again while it could accommodate FFA PvP the downsides are pretty high.

Fair enough - I am pretty sure we are never going to agree on this, but let's face it this is not the game you think it is (at least not at present). Civilizations have rules and breaking the rules usually have consequences. In principle civilization mechanics would allow me to declare you as an enemy of the state and when caught do what most civilizations do - either put you in jail for a long time or execute you. Unfortunately neither would be palatable in a game (obviously being in jail until freed pretty much kills your character) and there aren't many PvPers up for perma death for their characters. Sadly I really don't believe civilizations is what is really wanted here. It is just a fluffy premise with no substance behind it. The usual 'well the players can enforce it' cop out. Finally (honest) in a universe of civilizations PvP would not be profitable - it would be a lifestyle choice - outside of organized wars between civilizations and then of course it would only be profitable for one side! For PvP to be profitable you need easy, soft targets otherwise you burn too much ammo and spent too much time with too much risk. Sad fact.

Don't be an ass - I never said I wanted instant gratification. I just don't consider being shot at by someone part of the necessary work for someone who builds/mines and sometimes explores in a GAME. Sorry 24/7 != game it equals work. If I wanted that I would still be playing EVE and still living in 0.0. I am hoping this does a better job. As far as I can tell the big difference between us (as neither of us minds PvP being there) is that you want your playstyle to be imposed on everyone whether they wish to participate or not and I have the opposite view that I should be able to go wherever I like and choose whether or not I wish to PvP. You know like in most successful games.

What risks, pray tell? If you are shooting up an unarmed mining ship it is zero risk for you. Frankly this is the usual PvP bullsh1t. As always you want to force your playstyle on others. Surely the whole point of PvP is to fight other skilled players and win those battles is it not? In which case you are likely not randomly fighting unarmed ships. What bollocks - it is a game - I actually have a job and a real life so I don't play these things to work excessively. The game would need to support that with appropriate content and it currently doesn't. To be honest I have no interest in doing something like 'building a civilization' against a bunch of barbarians - really not interested in a 24 x 7 job thanks.

Well some certainly are after 'if it moves I want to shoot it', but I am mostly in agreement with your points. I think though, that it is one thing adding risk it is another thing having something camped by a whole bunch of PvP players - which is what happens in reality. It goes from risk to certain death. As to whether or not we get any game content that provides risk we shall see - to be honest I have no idea whether or not that will happen or not. I know for certain that there will be zero meaningful content from the PvP crowd. Being ganged up on and shot at is not meaningful content.

Now that is funny. There doesn't have to be any rewards for randomly shooting at people. It is most certainly not the way it is and doesn't have to be. You get your little adrenaline rush for the PvP itself and that is your reward. On the anarchy front, it is what you described. Didn't need much interpretation. Civilization implies order and rules and enforcement of the rules. It is really pretty simple.

There is no meeting point - it is still a case of EVE all over again. The big corporations will control the high end ore deposits and sure they will fight over it but that is the way it will be.

I am not saying you can't shoot each other - I am just saying you can't shoot anyone just because you decide you should. I am also saying don't lock up content behind a PvP wall. Of course if there is no content I guess this is a moot point and if the PvP crowd have their way there will be very little content - especially out in the areas they wish to control.

BS - meaning my ass. You want excuses is what you want. Again with the civilization stuff - if there is civilization there is no random PvP. There are armies, police forces, etc. They create safe places where there is economic activity. You want anarchy because there is no significant PvP without anarchy. People settle places for many reasons. Most people don't usually settle in unsafe places. Just the way it is.

It is not a PvP game - it is a game that has PvP in it not the same thing. You don't have half the things you have in this game if it is a 'PvP' game and, for the most part, you don't get creative people playing PvP games.

But there is the issue - I am not against PvP but I am against some of what is wished for in terms of the scope allowed for PvP. So, for me, it is a pointless poll with a false choice.

Too simplistic based on the variety of views on what is acceptable PvP.

Like me - funny - you don't even know what like me is. But I digress - I want you to not lock content based on PvP, You want to force people to PvP because, well, because yeah whatever. Just because you do. It would appear fighting other people who want to PvP is not enough - you want to fight those that don't want to PvP. Basically you want easy targets. As far as I can tell there are not too many games that got shut down for a lack of PvP. Lack of content, yes. Broken mechanics, yes. Boring mechanics, yes. Too many bugs, yes. Frankly if I lose all of my builds, or whatever, because the game doesn't make it then so be it. My world really doesn't revolve around the games I play. I play for entertainment recognizing that, at some point down the road, I will move on. It might be 6 months, 2 years or 5 years who knows - but eventually I will have done all I want to do and seen all I want to see and built all I want to build. It is all temporary and all virtual. Currently my longest spell playing something was EVE and that (on and off) was 7 years and in the end I gave everything away and trashed the characters as I knew I was not coming back. So, yeah, wipe it - frankly it could do with a wipe in 6 months anyway to get rid of the plots of those who are not subscribed.

Um, sorry, what - you don't need PvP that revolves around shooting people who are mining and you certainly don't need PvP to build a civilization - indeed civilizations are the opposite of PvP. When you get to be a civilization and a civilized people you have squashed the pirates, etc. you have police forces that site on the troublemakers as much as possible, etc. In short those who haul and mine don't need to care when there is civilization. At least get the analogies right. Nothing to stop PvP happening in the game, the question is what style you have and what is possible. Is it EVE style where the PvP players get to control large parts of the universe? Is it a full open world PvP like say Mortal Online? Is it controlled and consensual like most of the large successful MMOs out there (some have dedicated areas others dedicated servers but it is still controlled). So, stop the misrepresentation. It is more how and not if there is PvP. No one cares if there are PvP zones as long as it doesn't lock up resources and content for the majority. Everyone can then play at being a badass for a while if and when they wish. It is all about have choices - not implementation decisions being forced on you. You get to pick if you want the chance to be blown up - doesn't mean you have to try and force others down the same path. The big issue, though, is it appears too many who want PvP seem to need to force others into being shot at. Seems to be part of the mindset for many. If you can blow up a defenseless ship every so often and shout smack in chat at folks it just doesn't count. Ah well.

It helps certainly play styles in the game - as to whether that helps the whole game and how important those playstyles are is a matter of opinion.

Great blanket statement wit no evidence or game mechanics to back it up. We shall see.

Right - so you agree - essentially a paywall to get the resources that some other group of people set up. That is the EVE system when you boil it down. You also make an assumption that this all about money for the builders. For some it will be, but in a game where you can build anything and everything that is just not true - it is about time. If I can mine the resources and you don't put the blueprints in a PvP zone then I can build and I don't need the income. There are other perfectly reasonable ways of generating decay other than PvP such as 'rusting', 'weathering' or proper crash damages rather than what we have now. PvP is not the be all and end all of an economy if you 'do it right'. The problem for many players is if 'dong it right' doesn't involve shooting other players who don't want to be shot at it seems to be an issue.

Might be a little on the extreme side - just make sure you set the expectation that everything is impermanent. However you do need enough 'stuff' to test the scaling. The thing many people get upset about are losing their creations - just make sure there is a way of saving the designs and restoring them when the character is advanced enough. Would solve a good number of issues.

Why? There is nothing magic about T4/T5 other than they are rarer. No reason they should be locked behind a PvP paywall. The key is forced - you want people to be forced into PvP. Kind of selfish really. PvP with those who wish to PvP, no reason to try and force us who don't care to do so. Anyway, if one learned anything from EVE, it is not the individual PvP players who benefit but those who organize large corporations that can camp on and monopolize these rare resources that benefit.

100% agree. One of the dangers with 'early' beta release and crowd funding in general is exposing early and potentially short-lived mechanics that players decide they like but that cannot be implemented at scale. Danger of the funding mechanism and not managing the expectations. The other big issue is making players think that their individual feedback is going to shape the game. It is the collective feedback that is important and the 'noisemakers' tend not to think about that. To be fair companies tend to do a bad job of publishing the collective feedback to keep such expectations under control, but also to be fair the vast, vast, vast majority of players have absolutely no idea of what is involved in building a game like this. Not even a clue. This was clear reading about the screen change discussions. Now, this has nothing overly much to do with the PvP discussion - other than tangentially - but is important all the same!

Ahhhhahhhhahhh - sorry been playing them since 2001. Betas, alphas, successful ones, failed ones, some that hung on by their teeth for a while. Different genres, different playstyles. The big difference between now and the past is the length of the beta periods - in the past they were relatively short - now they can easily be 2-3 years. Totally different. Should you get some advantage for helping test the game, maybe, though probably not more than a week or so - certainly not two flipping years. You signed up to essentially scale test the game mechanics after all (as have I). If you want the game to get more subscribers and succeed you likely will have to suck up the wipe otherwise you will get to have all the old vets that are left playing by themselves until the plug is pulled. Just my opinion, and we'll see what happens. I am not against time based skill training but when experienced players can dominate the markets from day one due to their beta time for skill training it is going to be an issue (and I will be one by then). A lot of folks who might have played will think 'why bother' and you can guarantee the potential player base is way higher than the number of people who will be upset by a wipe. If it is not then frankly it doesn't matter anyway as the game will die.

True - but then if you go back a while (when EVE was young) there were many, many whines. It is what it is with new evolving games of any level of complexity and scale. Some figure it out, some don't. It will be nice if they do but we will see.