July01

It beggars belief that JC still has bots in the game...
 
bots giving out free money, bots buying ore at a fixed price and bots taking all the quanta back by selling magic potions.
 
This is basically the China factory syndrome: pay your workers then force them to use your restaurants, accommodation and leisure facilities, completely capturing the flow of capital and leaving little “leakage” for third parties.
 
I’m no economist, but this just seems like patent nonsense to me from a gaming (not a hyper-exploitative cotton farm in China) viewpoint. 
 
JC has decried the lack of human interaction. Hell he was even willing to risk losing or at least alienating half his player base to address the issue...
 
and what does he go and do? Basically set up a short circuit between a sweet trifecta of his own bots, effectively cutting human interaction out of the entire transaction from ore to store. 

dig by yourself.  Sell to bots. Get money for existing, the give all that money back to JC... so that you can once again craft your own shit for your own ships.
 
Well played, JC, you could have probably written the background story to Brazil! 
 

Hi,

I completely agree with that.

The prices on the T1 schematics have been fair for most items (probably not for furniture). At least it gives a real challenge and goals, and you can start and progress from scratch and slowly evolve to get bigger and bigger. Making it easier now  would just undermine the 0.23 update very purpose imho.

I produce modestly ship parts and sell them to the market. The item destructions allowed at least a good turn-over and good demand on those ship parts. Removing it (but for PvP) would kill some businesses, and that new born economy.
Beside that, the 24-25 quantas bots buying ore (temporary), just kill the market. Basically it is much more profitable if I would sell my non-refined ore to the bots instead of spending the time and efforts to invest in schematics, industry building and hours manufacturing, or even trading.
I think the more you try to control the player-driver economy, the more you may ruin it.
 
I don't mind adapting to new rules. I appreciate the efforts, the intents NQ's team brings and what they achieved so far. However nothing would revert and heal what the 0.23 patch did, but time. It is better to move on, and to continue on a mostly straight line instead of reverting, and possibly hurting back those who tried to adapt.

Thank you for reading.
Keep on the great work!
 
edit: to be fair, new T1 schematics prices (those from today's patch) look good. It has not been really undercut badly, while the reimbursement seemed to work. Good job!

100% This. It is ruined. I've posted several times on the forums this week that it's price fixing and that's illegal in the real world for a reason. There's no need for bots in the market place and they need to be removed for the market to find its true equilibrium, supply and demand profile. Bots and price fixing are not allowing industry to breathe in the way that it was intended.

Industrialists like myself calculate our product prices, but taking into account ore prices, we do the math real time when the basic ore prices fluctuate, either by using excel sheets, or doing math on paper( oldskool way), so we never sell below production cost , your argument here is not valid.
 
When part destruction be limited to pvp, and RDM blunders fixed, community will get back to ship designing and building, so parts are going to be needed anyway.
 
We do require  on case by case basis, reseting talent points, as some ppl spend their point differently due to massive impact of Death patch 0.23. Now when changes are being readjusted  , those might want to get back to crafting, so that Talent reset request  should be an option from this point onwards

I had a big factory so 0.23 affected me greatly. But that does not mean I was against it in principle.
I am not so sure the schematics solves anything in the long run as it is just a one-off investment cost. I will help get a more healthy market, but it will also make high-tier industry exclusively for early adopter big organisations. Organisations that want to get into it later will find it very hard to build up the investment and to compete on prices. So do solo-industrialist. It will stimulate organisations trying to dupe new players into being their 'mining slave' (I have seen some of that already), but will it make healthy and active player-interaction? I am not so sure: missions you need to do in a group, PVP and other cooperative activities work much better for that then Industry.
 
But aside from the downsides of the schematics: In my opinion the most imported market improvement in 0.23 was actually the destruction of elements. 

The 'fixes' now proposed make matter worse instead of better in my opinion:
 - Setting up a Tier one factory is already possible (I managed), so that did not need fixing: it will only increase oversupply on an already slow-moving market.
 - By removing the breaking of items there will be an even lower turnover on the market. That has been the biggest market problem from the start: if you can endlessly reuse and repair items, only new players occasionally buy something. You need a healthy amount of destruction to get a healthy throughput on the markets. PVP alone will not do that.

Why is the destruction removed again? 0.23 stimulate people to start with smaller ships and more T1 elements, and build up over time from that. So the destruction fits: those ships are not that hard to replace or repair. 
People should not fly large core 20-engine monsters until they know what they are doing.

So for me this change removes the good bits of 0.23, and makes the bad bits of 0.23 worse. I think the result will be even less healthy markets.

Update (after the patch): I stand corrected: they did not only lower the schematic prices on Tier 1, but across the board. Making a big factory is still a serious investment and not something to do casually, but it is not only achievable for big organisations anymore.
I still think we need to get the destruction back to get more activity on the markets. People should just fit an ECU and enough breaks and they survive a disconnect. Most of the people disconnect on purpose to save their ship: that is an exploit in my opinion. But they prefer to wine and complain :(.