NanoDot
-
Posts
1025 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by NanoDot
-
-
2 hours ago, Vorengard said:
...
Your underlying theory, that people would never act as a police force because it's boring, is fundamentally wrong, and there are multiple games currently on the market with significant populations of players that prove it.
The first and most relevant is EVE, where thousands of payers routinely sit for hours in station ship-spinning and shooting the breeze while they wait for someone to spot targets in their vicinity. Then they form up a fleet and go kill them. I used to do this for days at a time.
...
I think you need to have more faith in people and their willingness to put up with crap to do something cool. DU can and will develop unique and complex societies that rise above killing everyone who's not in your org "because reasons." Though it might take us a few years to get around to that point lol
I'll concede that my experiences in games like Mortal Online and Darkfall colour my view of things, because there was no room for non-pvper's there. They all left in the first month or two, and never returned. Those games had small game worlds (just like DU will have in year 1). It simply wasn't possible to evolve past tribalism, and in the absence of non-pvp'ers, nobody wanted to anyway. The "border" was never defensible, no part of your territory was ever more than a few minutes travel from danger.
I'll also concede that it does work in EVE. It works because the mayhem CAN effectively be stopped in the border systems. EVE's massive game world facilitates that, because large numbers of systems are often only accessible via a few specific routes, which can be patrolled. It doesn't matter if there's constant conflict in those gateways, because it seldom penetrates deeper. Let's face it, the inner systems of a nullsec empire are probably the safest places in EVE, lol. Getting there was a hair-raising trip, but the rest was tranquility itself. Well, mostly...
The border guard strike teams are not what I'd call a domestic police force, but in EVE they serve the purpose and remove the need for such a force anyway. You don't need bored neighbourhood cops when you have effective border guards.
But we agree that it will take a year or two before DU is a "multi-system" game world. And probably several years before it gets anywhere near EVE's 4000+ normal-space systems.
My focus was on the first year, when the starter system will be a giant pressure cooker, and I lost sight of the longer term in the process. How we'll keep the "builders" in the game through that first year in DU is anyone's guess. The general perception of DU will be formed in that first year, unfortunately, and that will be very hard to change later.
-
1 hour ago, Warden said:
In terms of certain things being considered boring such as police jobs:
You underestimate that there are whole communities and interest groups out there (more popular or known example: Arma III RPG) that enjoy this with a bit or a lot of RP even. I played cops and, more recently, an EMT myself. Spending a lot of time speeding around in an ambulance while talking in somewhat realistic short radio codes. To project that on security roles as I also played that job in A 3: there is demand.
I mean there are already DU police groups, either integrated in player nations or standalone, to cover that stuff in the future.
Just saying, someone might actually take your 911 call in DU in the future.
I have often seen players perform "police" jobs in MMO's... for an hour or two, and more often than not in response to a few ganks that already took place.
I have never seen anyone do it permanently though.
In an MMO, a successful policing exercise means the people involved will have nothing to do 90% of the time, because the area they're responsible for will have been secured. They'll be patrolling and waiting for something to happen, just like neighbourhood police do in RL. And eating doughnuts...
If "community policing" is viable, why do we need a safe zone around the arkship ?
-
The following is my current understanding of the scripting:
In DU, there are items (ship parts, structure doors, light fittings, etc.) that are created by NQ, called "elements". These elements will have predefined functions which will be able to be accessed from within Lua scripts (e.g. turn light ON, turn light OFF). Players cannot define new functions for elements, only use what NQ provides. Players will craft these elements, probably using blueprints.
Combat actions will not be accessible from Lua scripts, so no way to fire guns via a Lua script, for example, otherwise a single player would be able to fly a battleship by themselves and fire all 20 cannons remotely.
It seems that the intention of the Lua scripting is not to allow automation, but rather to modify the behaviour of the element.
So a factory unit will probably not have a Load.Blueprint.From.Inventory() function, but rather something like Increase.Operating.Speed(), for example, which may increase it's power draw as a side-effect.
-
On 02/09/2017 at 4:40 PM, VioletBannana said:
I'm worried that this game will be a grind fest if NQ don't get the game loop right. I hated EVE because 80% of the time I was pod mining with a corp which was really dull. I really like the idea of prospector specialization it mixed up the dynamic.
Truth is, DU may require MORE mining than EVE, because not only does the mining feed the shipbuilding industry, but it also supplies the infrastructure building industry (i.e planetary bases, space stations, stargates, etc.). And in DU mining is done manually, there's no massive mining ships hoovering-up megatons of ore...
That doesn't mean you have to mine though. Find an org that makes their living from other activities, or fill a role that doesn't require mining, like security perhaps.
Of course, it's impossible to tell at this point how things will work out in practice, because we don't know the details of the final implementation. We don't know how many hours of mining it will take to build a small, medium or large ship. We don't know what the intensity of PVP will be, which means we don't know how many ships will need to be replaced every day. We don't know how many resources will be needed to build a base or a space station.
-
4 hours ago, Vorengard said:
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were being condescending pricks to each other. But if that's how you want it to be...
You're technically correct, but in doing so you completely ignore the real issue in order to make a pointless, childish, and near-sighted argument that's easily refutable by anyone who's thought about the issue for more than two seconds.
How, my dear, did society get to be the way it is? Through millennia of pain and anger and distrust and chaos. We had to learn how to make society worth living in by experiencing misery for thousands of years before finally realizing how to work together enough to make it bearable. Of course that's not what we want for DU, but that's not the point. The point is that the real world does not have unbreakable rules that make us civilized, and yet we still manage to get by without killing each other all the time. These "consequences" you talk about aren't enforced by a magic system that mandates punishment, it's carried out by thousands of hard working people, and it only functions because nearly everyone complies with its rules and assists in making it happen. Civilizations can be formed in a system with no rules and limited punishments, and the fact that we're having this conversation is proof of the success of that concept.
THAT is what makes a real civilization work, and that is exactly what DU is going to need, because 99.999% of the game world is going to be a PvP zone with no real rules, teams, judges, or police (unless we make them, which we should!). These people can be punished by killing them, destroying everything they've built, and driving them from the game because no one will work with them. That is precisely how we enforce our own rules on society, and the process of working those differences out is going to be interesting and fun and unique in the gaming world.
This is an incredibly ignorant statement statement. Are you so dense that you don't realize that these conditions that allow for a safe society are manufactured by the people of that society? This is exactly what we need to do in DU: Manufacture a society that's worth enjoying by punishing the negative aspects of society (griefers). It will be hard, just like it is in the real world, but it can be done, and in a properly structured game advancing that process will be fun and rewarding. But if you're too spoiled to put any real effort into making it work, then by all means, go play something else.
I attacked your argument, you decided to attack my argument and ad a few ad hominems for good measure, I see. Let's keep it "civilized", shall we ?
Modern society evolved to it's current state because threats to that society were severely reduced or removed. The status quo is now well established and maintained by a large and effective police force whose sole function is to protect that society. In first world countries, the police response to calls for help is sufficiently quick that citizens don't have to spend large chunks of their time and income on defending themselves. In RL, the system is designed to make it as hard as possible for criminals to exist. Consequences for being caught are significant (jail time, life imprisonment or even death).
In an MMO, there is no parallel to a RL police force, and there never will be. There is no body of players that will sit around waiting for 911 calls and respond immediately. Because it's utterly boring game play. The best an MMO "citizen" can hope for is that their death will be avenged at some point. Having their stolen goods returned is a rare event. In an MMO, the system is designed to allow criminals to exist, because it's considered part of the game play. Consequences for being caught constitute a minor setback, not removal from the game.
In RL the low level of risk for the average citizen allows the insurance industry to exist and thrive. That low level of risk underpins the "trust" you speak of.
In a FFA-PVP game, insurance premiums would be unaffordable (even if there was a way to avoid widespread insurance fraud).
In RL, people try to avoid conflict, because it's disrupts society and normal life, and can kill you.
In a game, people seek conflict, because it's fun and exciting game play.
That's why FFA-PVP games cannot evolve past tribalism and constant warfare. The players don't want it to be any other way.
-
2 hours ago, Lord_Void said:
If I recall properly, you don't have to join an org to be given rdms tags from it.
I re-read the RDMS blog, and you may be correct.
It all depends on where and how the "tags" are defined and linked to players.
If it's possible to define a tag and link that tag to any player in the game, then asset management can indeed be done independently of the org and it's members.
-
1 hour ago, Vorengard said:
... Suffice it to say that NQ is specifically seeking to create a civilization simulator in a game, and one of the key tenants of civilization is that every single interaction is built on trust. One of the craziest things about real life is that there are no guarantees or hard-blocks against being mistreated ever, and if DU wants to be as "real" as possible, it needs to adhere to that philosophy as closely as possible.
...
Hopelessly flawed argument, I'm afraid.
RL works on trust, because the consequences of a major breach of trust are severe (i.e. lifelong bans or permadeath).
In any first-world country, the vast majority live to a ripe old age without once being scammed, robbed or murdered. Most people go about their business without looking over their shoulder constantly to see where the next attack may come from. Residential housing is not covered in gun turrets. The pizza delivery guy doesn't have an armed escort. People trust the system, because it allows the vast majority to live without the constant fear of violence or death (damn, those carebears).
You are selectively picking aspects (everything is built on trust), while ignoring the conditions that make it possible for that trust to exist in the first place.
The things that make "civilised society" work in RL can never be duplicated in an online game. In RL, severely antisocial individuals are removed from society. In a MMO, they just respawn and continue causing mayhem.
The highest level of social evolution that a FFA-PVP game can aspire to is well-organised tribalism. Or perhaps a version of Syria or Somalia...
-
40 minutes ago, Lethys said:
Nope, see the link from huschhusch.
Market orders will be mainly used for items which are predefined by NQ (ore, minerals, materials, elements). Maybe even ships, but that has to be seen. Every item sold there has to be physically stored in the market so while you can see and possibly buy items from afar, you'd still have to go there and pick it up.
Auction houses are locally visible and may be used for ships, constructs, contraptions or whatever else you want to sell
The reference to "auctions" in that blog is in terms of how prices are determined, as opposed to how prices are determined for commodities sold in a "market economy".
You can have buy and sell orders for commodities, but you can only have sell orders for constructs, because they are "unique" items.
But are constructs still "unique" when you create 100's of the same model from a Master Blueprint ?
That blog makes no distinction between creating a "market" and an "auction house":
"In Dual Universe, creating a market will require nothing more than setting up a Market Unit, a particular Element that you can craft and install in any construct of yours. The Market Unit requires an energy supply and a container to store the traded goods. It can be as small as a front door market in your little farm, where travelers can buy your local production, to an orbital station sized market where interstellar megaships are traded."
I've not seen any references to a "contract market" as yet.
-
2 hours ago, Lethys said:
well yeah, and that's already planned. It's an auction house
You have a source for that ?
I've read so many devblogs and posts in the last few weeks that the details are blurring, lol.
I thought DU was only going to have a market with buy and sell orders, i.e. "WTS 100 iron for Q50"...
-
1 hour ago, Lethys said:
If you want to start such a "neutral commercial org" - feel free to do so. But you'll have a hard time with people trusting you
That's exactly the problem at the moment.
Let's say you want to let a room in your hotel to a random player X.
You can define a time-limited RDMS rule, like "Player X can enter this door for a period of 30 days". Once saved, that rule cannot be altered until the 30 days have passed. The game will enforce that part of the "contract". But the payment of the "rent" for the room is not automatically deducted from the player, because that's outside the scope of the current RDMS (as it should be). You cannot "sell" that deal in the market, you have to trust the player to hand over the cash, and they have to trust that you've given them 30 days' access.
The ideal solution is a contracts system which uses elements of the RDMS mechanism, but where the contract details are visible to all parties before payment is made. EVE's contract system is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
Such a system would allow you to offer a 30-day rental contract to player X via the contract market, at a price of Q100. As soon as player X "buys" the contract for Q100, the contract rules are enforced by the RDMS system, which would mean the terms of the contract cannot be changed by anyone for the full duration of the contract. You get your money, and player X gets the room for 30 days, no trust required on either side.
-
4 minutes ago, Lethys said:
yeah, that's the system they have in mind so far.
Sure, contracts. I give you one char(b)on for a plex!
Quantas will only be introduced via mining (or possibly multiplied by producing elements and selling those to bots - who knows) and yes those bots, as long as they're active, will set a minimum price. But that's not as bad - newbros who start later can still get enough money; unlike in eve where bots and dualboxers destroy the whole market for them. (yeah, i know they can do other stuff to earn money - but mining is the obvious one when you start and don't want to pew)
DU doesn't have a contracts system AFAIK.
Even if there is a contracts system, it's unsuitable for barter, because barter often involves negotiation.
I may put up a contract asking for 50 copper as "payment" for my 100 iron offered. But I may be just as willing to accept 2 gold and 20 copper, or 6 silver and 25 tin, etc. A formal contract system doesn't allow the flexibility required for a barter system.
Your suggestion that the NQ bots will benefit new players by setting a kind of "minimum wage" is very weak, because that benefit vanishes as soon as NQ withdraw the bots. And in EVE, new players can run missions, they don't have to mine at all.
-
In DU, we have a very sophisticated RDMS system, but I think the rules defined in it only apply to members of the org that defined it. That implies that to formally rent land from org X (via a RDMS-governed agreement), you'd have to join org X. If that is not the case, then this suggestion is not needed.
In EVE, your "career history" shows a complete list of which organisations you were a member of, and for how long. It is frequently used as an initial "background check" to see who you associated with previously, and can have significant political implications. I don't know if DU will have a similar "career history" feature, but even if it doesn't, some people will informally track org memberships anyway (i.e. "know your enemy").
Ideally, I would like to see something like a "commercial org" entity in DU (or a contracts system), which has no formal political function, and exists purely to allow contracts to be defined and enforced via RDMS rules. That would allow a formal rental system to exist for land or accommodation units, for instance, without the political implications of being associated with a political player org.I hope there will be cities that would offer solo and small group players land to rent, while affording them a measure of security in exchange, without requiring them to become active members of the org that controls that city and land. By using a commercial contract, all the flexibility of the RDMS can be used, without involving the tenant in the political machinations of the landlord.
-
I may be wrong, but perhaps what the OP was suggesting was something like EVE's "contracts" system, where a list of diverse items can be bundled together and sold in one transaction for a single price.
In EVE, that allows you to bundle a ship blueprint + the materials to build it, or perhaps a pre-built ship + modules, for instance. The whole package is then listed for a single price.
-
31 minutes ago, Lethys said:
Well, yes - that's why i wrote: "the basis of all that is mining"
I wanted to make my reasoning very clear.
NQ are currently suggesting that they will stop pumping "new" money into the system once they feel there is "enough" money in the game.
After that, it becomes a closed system, which means that the only way to get money will be to take it from someone else, either by peaceful means (commerce, services) or by criminal means (piracy, theft, scams, etc.). So for someone to get "richer", somebody else has to get "poorer", and vice versa.
Now, money is not necessary in itself. We could barter...
But the whole reason why money exists in the first place is because bartering is very slow and inefficient. It results in a lot of haggling and requires person-to-person transactions. I may have 100 iron, but I need copper. Jimmy has 200 copper, but he wants coal. So now I have to find someone that will swap my iron for coal, so I can swap coal for copper from Jimmy. All those piles of resources have to be kept in storage lockers somewhere in the world, which implies a great deal of risk, whereas "money" reserves in DU will carry no risk. How do I find someone that wants to swap coal for iron ? Spam in chat ?
Simple things like a buy order for copper can't exist without a neutral exchange medium like money.
The problem with NQ generating buy orders for resources is that those orders will set the "floor price" for resources, which in turn will affect the minimum price for everything that uses those resources. That removes an element of freedom from the player-driven economy.
-
1 minute ago, Lethys said:
We will expand slowly (which is ofc also wanted by the devs) and people will always be somewhat near each other - because they want content (wars, people to play with, talks, ...). And even IF people spread out - markets will just be more localized. that's where daring traders come into play who could make fortunes if they buy goods in system X and ship them to system Y
or....
Piracy
Scamming
Robbing
Invading people
Raiding people
Margin Trading
Reseller
Mercs
....
True, the basis for all that will be mining - but way way after release not everyone has to mine to generate income. But I'm sure you meant that anyway
None of the activities you describe generate "new" money, they just redistribute the existing money.
Therefore, if any group or individual becomes very good at one or more of those activities, they will be very rich, while everyone else will be very poor, unless "new" money keeps on entering the system.
In EVE, the NPC missions and belt-ratting bounties continuously pump "new" money into the game.
In DU, the market orders placed by NQ will be the only way to get money into the system, which makes mining is the sole source of "new" money in DU.
-
Sovereign territory is important, because it allows a certain group to define "laws" for that territory (via RDMS). That allows the group to define things like land use permissions, taxes, etc. Those laws will also affect the exploitation of resources in that territory.
Sovereignty allows you to shape your territory as you see fit.
NQ have also floated the idea of allowing sovereign space claims, and ultimately the possibility of claiming entire planets and even solar systems.
-
On 01/09/2017 at 4:08 PM, Weirstrass said:
...
Maybe I make some mistakes on my post. I'll be happy to be corrected. Feel free to point some problems in my reasoning. Either way I'm very eager to read you and have your opinion about the way DU can be of some interest as a macro economic simulation and how its differences from other mmo like Eve can create new economic logic.The pace of game play in DU will most probably have a marked effect on the volume of market transactions.
In EVE, gathering resources is a large-scale operation that produces huge volumes of material in a relatively short time. The processing of those resources into ships is a simple operation (compared to DU). EVE needs to produce 1000's of ships and modules a day, because 1000's are destroyed every day.
In DU, the industrial output will be much lower than EVE, because every step in the production chain is slower and more complicated. In DU, resources have to be located, then mined by hand, which is a few orders of magnitude slower than EVE, where the location of resources are a known quantity, and mining is done on an industrial scale.
And not only will the daily volume of resources in DU be lower, but the potential use of those resources will be split between infrastructure (planetary base building, space stations, stargate construction, etc) and shipbuilding. So demand for resources might be much higher than supply.
In EVE, there are many small-scale mining ops (commercial mining) that continuously bring resources to market.
In DU, much of that small-scale mining output will be consumed by personal building projects, which means less resources going to market.
In EVE, ship losses can be replaced by making money from NPC missions or belt-ratting. That allows many players to exist purely as consumers of player-made goods. DU doesn't have that option, so everyone will be ultimately dependant on mining to generate income.
-
I have no idea what I will be doing !
The game systems are so undefined at the moment that "anything you dream of is possible", but those options will shrink as the game mechanics are implemented. I don't want to end up spending a year dreaming that I'll be doing X, only to find that it's not practical due to the way the game world works.
I'm planning on joining a medium to large org, because I think that will give me the option of trying the most varied amount of activities in the game.
-
Programming is my job and often becomes a leisure activity as well. I have no problem with the idea of doing it 24/7, lol
-
I'm expecting pre-alpha to last until December (i.e. 3 months).
Hopefully with more hours of server access added as it progresses.
-
22 hours ago, mrjacobean said:
Build them to order. Someone places a build order (contract), you construct it, and either you deliver it or they pick it up
Delivery may be tricky, how will you get back ?
So many things to consider in DU...
-
In a single-seat fighter, the pilot will do everything.
So, when does a ship become "large enough" to start splitting functions into different roles (i.e crew positions) ?
Will it be decided on module size (small, medium, large) ? For instance, would a "large" turret require a dedicated player as gunner ?
-
47 minutes ago, yamisniper said:
think people are forgetting they can build under ground
and hide unlike most pvp games
I guess we'll have to see what kind of scanners will be implemented, as well as the skill training time associated with them.
The entrance of your underground base will be hard to hide, it has to be big enough to allow your ship to pass through, of course, otherwise the parked ship on the surface will be a dead giveaway...
-
Seems like everyone has a slightly different idea of exactly how the BP system will work !
As usual, the devil is in the details, as they say.
Stargate Technology
in General Discussions
Posted
The gates will all be player-built, so whoever builds it automatically owns it.
That need not be a problem though, the gate you are dialing from could perhaps query your access rights on destination gates, and simply not display invalid destination gates in the list of options.
I suspect DU gates will be "fixed destination" though, it's just simpler to implement, given all the ramifications of access rights.