lucagrabacr
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Posts posted by lucagrabacr
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38 minutes ago, NilinChan said:
watch this video, this is the current meta:
discussing XS qube ship with 2 large railguns
38 minutes ago, NilinChan said:watch this video, this is the current meta:
discussing XS qube ship with 2 large railguns
I've watched some myself but haven't watched this 1. Thanks for the link
We can't see in the video how fast the cube accelerated toward that speed compared to the other ship (since he was already at 28k kmh in the beginning of the recording) so I still stand by my argument that if the other ship was built well enough the other guy could've probably changed course and outrun the cube once he saw it in the radar (which apparently only has few space thrusters looking at the video), especially since with very little speed difference like that (both are traveling near 30k kmh) it would've taken the cube quite a while to catch up to the freighter, and the freighter pilot would've seen it coming minutes away
Example: If the cube has MAX amount of forward thruster for example, then any ship that is not a cube with similar amount of forward thruster will always be faster because it won't be carrying a cube of blocks (except when it's full of cargo maybe). But the bigger you go the more thrust:weight ratio you can have, so if you're on an S core ship for example, yes you will be outranged even more, but you'll have more acceleration given you construct your ship for acceleration. I'm just it's not un-counterable
But yeah, whether it's a cube or an XS core ship with 2 large railguns, like I said if the freighter has an XS core ship with large rail guns of his own, he could've possibly intercepted that cube and force it to disengage from the ship - inconvenient but better than the suggested alternative of removing different lockon ranges, which would bring even worse problems
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9 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
The op is complaining because he probably got killed buy one of this Meta ships.
I know ppl that lost ships to pirates using meta ships and i know pirates who are winning because they use meta ships.
You have the right to not belive it. But the op and most ppl here have no interest in disbelief of on facts that we have seen.
Get your self a S core with the your proper design. And go tank the pirates on ion, theoma, jago. Then tell us how it went.
Like I said, current mechanics makes it inconvenient to freight in PvP zones, but that's by design as PvP zones aren't meant to be safe havens, and removing different lockon ranges mechanic like you suggested will only make more problems.
Tanking is only a part of my suggestions, I suggested; bring a gunner, bring an XS core ship, take a different route, or don't go to dangerous zones at all if you don't have gunners / friends protecting you.
I'm all for more balancing if there are imbalance found, but removing different lockon ranges is totally not the answer.
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3 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
It all depends on how much abusive you make the design.
How many L space engines can you put on a XS face?
Only a also cubic S core also full of L space engines will be able to catch up.
If you add to that the glitches of space movement, the pvp border and the huge acelaration changes, its nearly impossible to kill a XS core unless the guy does not know how to play
Well that argument is anecdotal unless there's hard proof / statistics which show that a properly made bigger ship can't outrun an XS core ship full with L sized equipment. What I'm saying is if they remove the different lockon ranges mechanic, there will be bigger troubles and more abuses as huge cubes of death will be even harder to counter - with the current mechanics it is inconvenient to counter an XS core pirate, but at least there are feasible countermeasures (bring gunner, bring XS core ship with railgun, make your ship thicker, choose a different route, or have someone clear your path first with a smaller ship, as even the most dedicated pirates can't possibly stay online 24/7)
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Just now, joaocordeiro said:
Check private message.
Did, and like I said even so it's unfeasible for an XS core ship with all kind of L sized equipment to outmaneuver or outrun a properly-equipped bigger ship, unless the bigger ship is poorly made
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Just now, joaocordeiro said:
Does it really matter how i got them?
Wont my example be valid for now up into the future?
Pirates will not be poor ppl, at least not after 1 successful run.
They can easily buy all their gear.
It matters to the validity of your argument because you said you got them 2 weeks ago, "easy" in only 30 minutes which is almost impossible, but most importantly you used that example to convince people that an XS core ship with an L railgun and all needed equipment / engines / fuels can be feasible and even outrun / outmaneuver proper bigger ships. If you can't prove it then your argument is moot
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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:
?? press J to check the markets.
Do tell me how 2 weeks ago, which is barely 5 days after beta release, people already made railguns and are selling them in the market. And where's the image of this XS ship with railgun which only took you 30 mins to make? I don't like accusing people but it seems more and more like you're just mad that some pirates destroyed you because you didn't take necessary precautions, and now you're mad at people who are trying to tell you what you can do, and possibly resort to lying to win an argument
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Just now, GraXXoR said:
Not really, because the ships will be solely min/maxed to destroy, but the non pvpers will be trying to do something work related which will reduce their effectiveness.
Also, even at 29,999 speed you can be targeted and destroyed by missiles from a ship you can't even see... so having an escort is meaningless.Yeah any fully dedicated-for-combat ship will outperform any non-combat ship in combat, it is just what it is I guess. Can't you see the pirate first with radar though? Because even at 30,000kmh it still takes a few seconds to reach radar lockon range, unless there's really bad lag I guess
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3 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
Is it? We made one in 30min 2 weeks ago. It was even atmo capable.
1L radar, 1 L rail, 2 seats.
Just hold using arrow keys...
Zero difficulty.
Show me this ship you made. And are you sure it can even outrun S ship with proper thrusters? And tell me how you made it in 30 min, as L railgun and L seat each takes 19 hours to make, not to mention their materials, and L radar takes hours, unless you already have them in stock of course and you're only talking about "putting it together" time which doesn't really say anything since most of the time is coming from manufacturing them
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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:
There is no other pvp. And there wont be for a while. By that time NQ will probably have fixed this. So there is no point of using it as example.
It is a planned feature so it's a valid example.
And to my previous point, here's my XS ship next to my L railgun, see how unfeasible it would be to get an XS ship properly working with an L railgun attached?
That doesn't include fuel tanks, engines, L radar and gunner seat, plus all the piloting elements needed to move them
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Just now, joaocordeiro said:
Who is the pirate that will do piracy with XS guns?
Thats not a pirate its a newbie.
See my third point. XS core ships can only hold so much so it's already a pain and expensive to fit L radar, gun and seat on an XS core, not to mention the thrusters and fuel tanks needed to propel it (L railgun is about 16t) plus you can always deploy an XS ship with a gunner like I said if an XS core pirate with a gunner is coming after you
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7 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
Sure. This makes guns on a freighter useless. What he needs is a escort.
But this situation denounces the current meta.
Only one core size is usefull in pvp. (XS)
Only one radar size is usefull in pvp. (L)
Only 3 weapons are usefull in pvp (rail L, M and Laser L)
Only one shape is usefull in pvp (cube)
Why do we have all those elements if those are useless?
NQ needs to do some proper math and balance this.
Not true;
- M core with a gunner can have similar range as any solo XS gunner
- S core with a gunner can outrange solo XS gunner
- Yes XS ship with a gunner can outrange any bigger ship, but XS ship can't hold that much within the confine of 32m size and can't possibly have all the things that S-L core ships can have
- Railguns have the worst max firing cone while something like a missile have 180 degree firing cone
- In atmosphere max scan range is 5km and max lock range is 4km so cannons or missiles or even smaller ones can be more useful / efficient than railguns
- Cube ships have their own flaw (too big and bulky for anything else other than space PvP, faster ships can outrun them as any ship that's not a cube can fill in more engines than cubes)
However I agree that M radar is useless, but S radar still has its use for solo gunner.
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7 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
The problem with this logic is that it's not up to their freighter to decide when the engage happens and who to engage.
Of course it's not up to the freighter, it's the pirate (attacker) which initiate the engagement, but that's just how it is and not a problem with any logic - you don't get to choose when or whether or not you'll get engaged, that's unrealistic. I'm merely saying that's what you can do to counter a pirate attacking your ship - Max radar scan range is 400km, if you see an XS pirate coming with a gunner you can deploy your XS craft which should ideally also has a gunner and the pirate will be forced to deal with the XS craft instead of shooting at the freighter
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16 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
The unbalance comes from freighters having to be big cores while attackers can be XS.
That makes putting weapons on a freighter 100% useless.
The freighter can only warp or die....
Radar range should allways be higher then weapons range, for any core size...
Ans the onlu bonus a xs ship should have is less chance to hit it.
If you're in a large freighter you can always have an L radar with L gunner seat + L weapon and you can have the same range as any XS pirate as long as they're solo-gunning and as long as your large freighter is M core and not L core
If the XS pirate has a gunner as well, then you can bring a smaller XS core ship with a gunner as well and you can force the pirate to disengage your bigger ship as they will need to respond to your XS core ship attacking them at similar lock / firing distance
I do kinda agree that the different lockon ranges for different core sizes can favor some playstyles over others, but they do it so there's a counter against L ships (otherwise everyone with the means would just fly massive L ships and there's no way of defeating them if smaller ships can't outrange them, and this will force them to have smaller ships guarding them or just use smaller ships entirely)
Adding: And if the lockon ranges are the same across all cores as you suggested, then the current different tiers of radar system would be obsolete and everyone would just opt for railguns, and it would be a matter of who has the thickest cube ship with the most railguns instead of the possible varieties we have now
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3 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:
And who in their right mind would acelarate against a battle cruiser?
Pirates match the target velocity and slowly get within range of using their wapons. And stay at that range, compensating the target's attenpts to run away or get closer.
Even if the target has friends, the pirate only has to attack the closest one, and maintain range.
If some other gets closer, he switches target and does the same.
If that battle does not produce results, he can just retreat without ever risking his ship.
I understand that it can be a problem, but that's part of the gameplay, and if any pirate does that anyone can bring similarly-equipped XS core ship to engage the pirate, and anyone with a gunner can outrange any solo pirate (or at least have the same range). The "They can always outrange us by moving away / closer" argument is not true if you have the right loadout for what you have
S space radar (the only radar any solo pirate can equip without gunner) have lockon ranges of;
- 10km against XS core
- 20km against S core
- 40km against M core
- 80km against L core
L space radar (if you're flying with a gunner / soloing your gunner seat) have lockon ranges of;
- 40km against XS core
- 80km against S core
- 160km against M core
- 320km against L core
You might not even need a gunner if you use a large missile with large gunner seat against a solo pirate, as you can stand up, go to the gunner seat and lock on the pirate that way as the ship cruises at the same speed and direction, the missiles have 180 degrees aiming angle and 60km max range (XS core lock range for L space radar is 40km) while an S radar can only lock as far as 20km for S core, 40km for M core and 80km for L core, so as long as you're not flying an L core ship you'll always have a good fighting chance against a solo pirate as they can't outrange you if you bring the right equipment / loadout for what you have
Here's how I see it;
- If you're flying an XS core ship, then get your own space radar and at least a railgun, and you can have the same lock & firing range as any solo pirate flying an XS core ship (minus range from talents differential)
- If you're flying anything larger than an XS core ship and want to not get outranged by any solo pirate, get L gunner seat, radar and weapon, and ideally bring a gunner with you
- If you're worried that the pirate is gonna have a gunner / gunners as well, well that's part of the gameplay outside safezone
What I'm saying is there's really no imbalance as you can counter any pirate / attacker without being outranged if you bring the right kind of equipment for what you have, there would be an imbalance if any particular loadout / playstyle can't get countered at all, which is not the case
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18 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
No. For S and XS targets, the radar identification happens below railgun range.
My bad, meant to say "see" instead of "identify", fixed my post earlier
14 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:No.
If you have the biggest range (L elements) with the smallest counter range (XS core) with the highest acelaration(cube full of engines), you can maintain range and shoot without being shot until your ammo runs out or your enemy is dead.
Yeah, that's what I meant by outtanking them with larger ship (because you'd be accelerating already when you're heading towards them), and if anyone can't outmaneuver them (say they're really fast like you said) if they're doing that can't anyone just come with similar XS cheese-cube or multiple if they have friends / orgs?
Plus if the guy in the XS core ship is soloing then they wouldn't be able to use larger guns / radars and anyone with radar + gunner can outrange them
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Just think of them as pirates.
And aren't there mechanics in the game already that balance that kinda thing? For example if they're using a big L or M ship, then you can outrange them with S / XS ship with if you guys have similar weapons / radars (you'll need a gunner of course). And if they're using small ships, just make bigger ships that can outtank them.
Not to mention radars, can't you see them from 400km away (way outside any gun's range) already?
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Would be funny if it's gonna be so bad that NQ will start putting up parking fees for markets otherwise your ship gets shot by some cannons (as extra economy sink)
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Thanks you two! c= I'll try to test it right away
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Is it possible? Want to make a pocket carrier but don't know if a smaller ship can attach to a larger ship like that
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Just now, JohnnyTazer said:
Most likely, but keep in mind, the smaller core you have, the less room, and its hard to make a ship that can "do it all" with smaller build sizes. Like go in atmo, in space, shoot, accelerate fast enough, brake fast enough, etc. So in a sense bigger will always be "Better" in my opinion, but only to a small scale degree. And there is always the factor if the person you are fighting has poor skills or built a poor ship, haha. Which is very good in my opinion. The more variables you throw in for someone to win fights, the better. Not knowing if you are gonna win a pvp fight going in should be the case a decent amount of the time, and randomess leads to more replayability and fun imo.
Yeah I was factoring all those variables to figure out what kinda ship I / most people would have depending on their needs / organization's needs, haven't seen how big some of the higher-tier elements are yet, but I'm guessing all of them can fit on an S core to some degree to a reasonable effectiveness if pure firepower / PvP efficiency isn't the intent of the ship, but I guess an M core ship would be more reasonable for an all-around ship that would do well in PvP without being too expensive
Can totally see solo players (they need gunners or stand up from their seat, I know) or smaller groups using smaller ships to either hit and run or just runaway from a bigger threat while still being able to shoot / outrange them, or bigger organizations using a bunch of sniper small ships as a tactic or overall strategy
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46 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:
Yes, there is nothing tying them to a core. But a L gun needs a L radar, and L gunner seat, and takes up more space, and is heavier, etc. So you have freedom, but doesn't mean will be optimal.
Thanks Johnny, so it's totally possible for smaller ships to fight with or even outrange bigger ships then I guess, since radar lock range differs between core sizes
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Like an L gun on an S core, L gun on an M core, etc
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Thanks you two! c=
NQ Pls address in the near future.
in General Discussions
Posted
It forces big ships to have escort fighters, which I think is a good thing - because in another game I play where there's no difference in range no matter how big your ship is, the meta is almost entirely "The guy with the biggest ship and most turrets win" which has almost no counter at all. At least the current meta of DU, while annoying, still has a counter
Edit: I'm not saying NQ shouldn't try to balance it somewhat, to make using bigger ships seems less like a liability, as I'm a big ship person myself
Edit 2: Maybe instead of removing different lockon ranges entirely, they can increase the lockon range of XS ship to that of an S ship? So at least people with S freighters won't feel too vulnerable, while M and L cores still need fighters