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It's a Problem that Ship-to-Ship Combat is a Stretch Goal

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For me personally I am hoping for larger non-pvp areas. I never been a big fan of PvP, played STO for 6 years and never once did a PvP. I more into the building the ships and having more of a real impact within a large universe. 

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The way I see it... there will be PvP... it'll just be person to person... ground based... boarding actions... at the start.

 

 

But you are right that there being not ship to ship... construct to construct combat at launch is a problem.  People see the trailers for the game and their minds go immediately to imagining all the epic space battles they'll have.  It's an expected ... fundamental feature... which not having will hurt the progress of the game.  The game wont be able to grow very fast without it.

 

That said... it also has to be done well.  Bad, boring, and superfluous pvp is just as bad as none at all. 

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It is the first stretch goal because it's a feature we're not going to play right at the start. When we start we have to train skills, make some cash, mine, create a home and pvp avatar vs avatar. Ships will come later, a few months after the start (you may have small scouts like 2 weeks after release, but for a real ship capable to fight it would probably take longer), so they'd have a little more time to do that. Water, elements, economy, organizations, ui, graphics, and more, are things that are needed right from the start, that's why CvsC is the first stretch goal. Ofc by the time we reach release, they'll reach 600k and much more, no doubt about that. 

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I seriously doubt they are not adding CvsC to the game. The question, I hope, is when. Hit the stretch goal, maybe alpha. Miss it, probably later, sometime in Beta.

Nope, CvC will not be on alpha even if the stretch goal is reached.

 

The thing is if you want CvC as part of the initial release without the stretch goal then what other feature would you trade it with?

Because the devs said they are on tight budget so they have to compromise. What would you compromise and what would the community would compromise to have it on launch?

 

Here is the list of the feature for the game at launch : https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/013/611/288/90a436807de5113e51b2f82001c2f6d5_original.jpg?w=680&fit=max&v=1473110122&auto=format&q=92&s=d224c045105c46368808a6e91ac93a5d

 

- Massively Multiplayer Single-Shard server : Core of the game impossible to trade and already developed

- Editable Planet : Already developed

- Biomes : Some already developed but more would be important to have different material to make different constructs

- Exploring : Can't be eliminated because it uses the constructs

- Scanning and mining : Without mining you don't craft constructs. Scanning will be important to find the material you need for your ship

- Voxel building : Already developed and needed to build a construct

- Crafting : Constructs depend on crafting

- Alien life : Might be dispensable for the launch

- Trading : You need trading to buy resources to repair your construct

- Territory control : Without territories why would you fight in the first place?

- AvA : Primordial

- Organizations : Without organizations no CvC because you won't know if you fight a friend or a foe and it would not be organized.

- Skill-Tree : CvC without progression? Forget it.

- Character customization : Cool but not so important if we can get it later

- Social tools : Do you fight communication?

 

So only two features can be exchanged for CvC and I doubt they weight enough to rivaled CvC.

 

So as far as I am concern it is not possible to get it early.

 

Although I believe that even if the goal is not reached, NQ will do their utmost to make it possible anyway with other means (like alpha/beta backing)

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Honestly I think NQ is doing it the right way.

 

We wont reach space for quite a while.

Beyond that there are far more important features then CvC in my opinion.

 

I understand that it seems strange for a space game not to have space combat. But looking at DU just as a space game is doing it a disservice. DU is a civilization building game. And I think the features they choose for first release are the essentials.

 

DU 1.01 is going to be the foundation for a game that is going to live for quite some time. (Hopefully) If you dont get the foundation right it doesnt matter what else you do after that.

 

As such I see no problem with wich features they choose to launch with.

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Guys, you should finally realize the devs want to make the same game we want and are coming from same background (just with better skills so they can actually make it:D).

 

CvC(vP) is their ultimate goal, but it's much harder than PvP. And even if KS would fail (it won't), the game is going to be released, there will be ways of supporting it even after KS (I guess) and all will happen, just at little bit different pace and after release.

 

With limited budget they need to choose what to do first and CvC is NOT PRIORITY, because we won't get to that point for considerable amount of time after release. And when the civilization gets to that point, they will have that implemented.

 

If we meet the stretch goal, then it means more money, more resources and I'm sure the results will be same for us, but rather sooner than later :-)

 

Also, for quite some time, we will be having so much work that we won't even realize that CvC is not yet implemented. And when it finally is, there will be stuff to destroy! Hoooray:D

 

Now show me some positive comments.

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Epic fail of NMS already gives very negative effect on our KS campaign. Its in the air. If DU Kickstarter started, lets say, year ago, it will be 1 kk USD for same time period, even more. But after NMS people very suspicious, to say at least, liar Murrey crippled genre for years.

 

So, interesting PvP at start, and overall GOOD start is essential MUST for DU, just for survival at larger scale. Critics, youtubers and other crowd of this sort will be completly mercyless.

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In response to Danger's comment; I dont disagree with you on any one point. However, you seem to be missing both the tone of this thread and the purposes of a forum like this one.

 

I did not start this thread to whine about the game and make everyone think it was doomed. I started it to make sure that there is a record of a very legitimate concern that many in the community share. That is the whole purpose of alpha forums after all; to make sure the community shares how it feels about current development plans.

 

I think you're making a huge mistake by taking the position that skepticism is somehow wrong, or that we should keep our mouths shut about what we consider to be potential problems. That doesn't actually help anyone.

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In response to Danger's comment; I dont disagree with you on any one point. However, you seem to be missing both the tone of this thread and the purposes of a forum like this one.

 

I did not start this thread to whine about the game and make everyone think it was doomed. I started it to make sure that there is a record of a very legitimate concern that many in the community share. That is the whole purpose of alpha forums after all; to make sure the community shares how it feels about current development plans.

 

I think you're making a huge mistake by taking the position that skepticism is somehow wrong, or that we should keep our mouths shut about what we consider to be potential problems. That doesn't actually help anyone.

 

The main reproach one could do to your topic is it only poses the problem and doesn't provide any answer to it.

The tone is alarmist but then there is nothing to counter-balance that.

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Similarly, you could have added a poll, see what percentage of the player pop thinks this is a big enough problem for the devs to really change anything. Support to the KS has been steadily climbing, it's going to be hard to point to this as a gaff if it is having a positive effect.

 

Plus if this being a stretch goal means that people are going to throw-down more funding to get it there, I'd be just fine with this being a trick to boost funding especially if it works :)

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us old time veterans will be sitting in the tavern looking at these war mad newbies with their 1000 player cvc battles in years to come, reminiscing about the good old days when you had to get your lazy ass out of the ship to avatar vs avatar to destroy the ship. "They don't even know how good they have it" we'll say!

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I'm only real concern is that they make it abundantly clear what the deal is... As a somewhat new person to looking at DU myself... I thought there was ship to ship combat at launch until about a week ago. 

 

It's not at all clear from the promotional materials that the space ships you see flying around... with big gun parts all over them... in a game based on players creating their own society through conflict and cooperation... can't be used for combat...

 

Looking at the kickstarter and very recent interviews is how I learned about it.  And it is a disappointment... but the only thing currently to be done about it is to make sure it's abundantly clear what is and is not in the game.

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I'm only real concern is that they make it abundantly clear what the deal is... As a somewhat new person to looking at DU myself... I thought there was ship to ship combat at launch until about a week ago.

 

It's not at all clear from the promotional materials that the space ships you see flying around... with big gun parts all over them... in a game based on players creating their own society through conflict and cooperation... can't be used for combat...

 

Looking at the kickstarter and very recent interviews is how I learned about it. And it is a disappointment... but the only thing currently to be done about it is to make sure it's abundantly clear what is and is not in the game.

You have the burden of proof all backwards there. It is their obligation to tell players what WILL be in the game, it is not their obligation to disclose what is NOT in the game. The faxt that they went ahead and did that anyways is exemplary, not obligatory.

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Putting this disclaimer on top:

The dev team has not actually said if CvC will be in alpha/beta just that it may be added post release. They have been silent on what will be in alpha/beta as far as construct v construct. It just concerns me that NQ seems to have an attitude of "it can be added later" when I think this is possibly the most important part of the game because of the time needed to get it right and its impact on everything. For the purpose of this post I am assuming they plan on adding CvC post release with little to no CvC in alpha/beta

 

 

 

I agree with OP that in videos and interviews they are selling large CvC battles as part of the game. Shipping without it is a huge negative. My concerns go deeper then just the perception of the game at launch. I have serious concerns that CvC will not be implemented in Beta or even Alpha. In my eyes one of the hardest things to do is make pvp combat balanced and fun for everyone. In a game like DU this is much harder because there is so much freedom and creativity in building ships that compounds the difficulty of pvp balance. In most games, take star citizen for example, all the ships are predesigned. This makes balance easier because control of the ships is in the hands of the developers.

 

In DU I feel like most people will understand that it is an adult game and you will die, people will steal your stuff and that's just the nature of the game. However, no player will or should tolerate losing their stuff because construct v construct combat is a cluster-fuck of balance that was not properly tested and hastily implemented post launch.

 

PvP is also something that will have an impact on every player in this game that leaves the safe zone. Lets say you want to be a miner, you have no interest in pvp or killing players. You build up defensive skills and a very defensive and safe ship so you can mine and move your cargo. The pvp system has to be able to acknowledge that you should be able to defend yourself from a lot of small ships and low skilled players if you do this. If the system is messed up and not well thought out and some low skilled player can use OP Laser ship A to insta kill all your defenses, you will probably say fuck this I'm not playing till they fix this crap. While I'm sure the dev team is smart enough to now allow something that imbalanced there will be months worth of balance needed for any pvp system to work well.  If you consider the free form nature of the game I would not feel comfortable with the pvp system until it has been tested for at least 6 months to work out all the bugs and balance issues with it.

 

Ultimately the message that i think OP is trying to get across that CvC shoudl be a much higher priority is correct. lack of having it a launch can simply make the game less appealing or because of the horrid balance issues it could lead to. My hope is they will push hard to get as much CvC in the game pre release as possible.

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The main reproach one could do to your topic is it only poses the problem and doesn't provide any answer to it.

The tone is alarmist but then there is nothing to counter-balance that.

That hardly seems necessary. My complaint is no CvC at launch. The obvious solution is to add CvC at launch. That seemed rather self explanatory. Or are you suggesting that I should be directly telling the Devs how to make their own game?

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Additionally, I agree with the above statement that CvC will require a massive amount of balance that should be done prior to launch.

 

I've had enough experiences with totally unbalanced ship designs and capabilities in EVE. It has serious negative effects on the community and the game as a whole.

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Speaking from experience with another indie Dev KS project ie Crowfall, I can tell you that they simply can't include everything in the base package. There are some things that either have to wait or have to wait until they get funded. I think having it as one of the first stretch goals speaks to how much they do want to include that part of the game.

 

Besides 2 years is a long time like other said and they will continue to raise money beyond the KS campaign. The could also start making and the game find out that certain parts weren't as difficult as they thought so varies other parts will get more iteration time. Can also go the other way and stuff then get pushed back and delayed. I just think if you go in willing to follow and support a project like this you have to just roll with the punches and not to get excited about stuff, as well as not get too apathetic either.

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us old time veterans will be sitting in the tavern looking at these war mad newbies with their 1000 player cvc battles in years to come, reminiscing about the good old days when you had to get your lazy ass out of the ship to avatar vs avatar to destroy the ship. "They don't even know how good they have it" we'll say!

 

"But granpa, how did you bring down the megalith cruiser of the killsquad clan?" 

"With THIS KNIFE...and some damned good whiskey" 

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I fully agree with OP. A space-themed PvP game without space combat is just a contradiction in itself and hence it's an absolute nobrainer that CvC should be part of the core features from day one. Besides, it will raise a lot of eyebrows among potentially new players and will probably deter them from buying into the game.

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But anyone who followed DU and the kickstarter is given a lot of information on why they choose their set of features for launch.

 

Why there is no CvC on launch without the stretch goal is very clearly explained.

 

Eventhough they have 24 people working at NQ they are a small indie team. Thats why they kickstart the project to begin with.

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Combat is a good, of course. We can't play without combat, PVE is not good for fun. But if every boy will have gun in his hands - what will be with your buildings? 

 

A good idea - make weapons that for sale only, and set up very-very high price on it.

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This game is not for kids and children.

 

If an adult can't read what is clearly stated all over the place and then he rates this game badly, he's just an idiot and should go to school instead playing DU

 

But it isn't very clearly plastered everywhere. Its in a single drop down box at the very very bottom of a huge long kickstarter page. 

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This game is not for kids and children.

 

If an adult can't read what is clearly stated all over the place and then he rates this game badly, he's just an idiot and should go to school instead playing DU

 

For example in the most recent AMA video he answers questions about the damage model and how its related to voxels. Specifically about how damage actually breaks voxels and makes realistic type damage to blocks and systems. He doesn't mention there that this is something they aren't planning on doing before launch. We've seen ships with gun, and statements like those about how damage affects voxels. Unless you really read into it, you'd think CvC would be in this game. Hence it is misleading and should be addressed. 

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But it isn't very clearly plastered everywhere. Its in a single drop down box at the very very bottom of a huge long kickstarter page.

You may have a very small point there.

 

But if you kickstart something and you dont even bother to read the available info is that NQ's fault?

 

I mean, I saw people comment on the KS page that they are taking back their pledge because its FFA pvp.

 

A lot and I mean a lot of info is on the KS, dev blog and youtube. NQ is not misrepresenting anything.

 

Oh yea I forgot, people think reading for 5 minutes is already too much. Ugh...

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