Blueprints and Materials

[Cornflakes]

I have yet to see any construction game where reverse engineering of functional constructs would take months without any artificial timers.

 

With that "fark it" mentality any blueprint will last days at best.

[Jett_Quasar]

I think the blueprint concept comes into it's own later in the game when many new players just want to have space battles and not be bothered with going through the ship design process.  After all why spend all the time and effort designing a crappy noob ship that's just going to get destroyed in a battle when you can purchase one designed by a player that has been in the game for a long time and has a lot of experience designing good ships.  

[Velenka]

I have yet to see any construction game where reverse engineering of functional constructs would take months without any artificial timers.

 

With that "fark it" mentality any blueprint will last days at best.

 

I think that estimate is entirely far too optimistic. Scales in DU will be much larger than any construction game before. I would like to see you be able to completely decompile the 8km long station as seen in the gameplay footage in mere days. But of course there will be smaller constructs, and of course they will be decompiled. But others and myself have suggested that the solution lies in the emergent gameplay.

 

I mentioned the following as the actual permanent solution:

"a possible a "Patent Regulator" organization which would attempt to stop plagiarism, which is another nice emergent mechanic. The "Patent Regulators" would hire the "Police" to "arrest" offending parties."

 

Adding on to this, the builders would pay some kind of regular payments to the Patent Regulators as a form of intellectual protection. These Patent Regulators would have their own enforcers or could contact the police to "arrest" the offenders. The Patent Regulators would also be involved in reputable trading stations where blueprints are sold. They could identify those plagiarized blueprints and remove them from the market.

 

So in the end, copying someone else's work would be time-consuming and illegal, which could prompt actions taken against you.

[guttertrash]

I think a way this could work without worrying about the blueprint rights is when you go to build it it has a list of materials you will require (i assume) perhaps grouped in some way (ie if you have a continuous section of voxel material of a certain type its a group) 
 

and as it shows you the requirements you could perhaps have a substitute button next to the material type of the group you want to change and you can browse through other suitable materials 

[Velenka]

I think a way this could work without worrying about the blueprint rights is when you go to build it it has a list of materials you will require (i assume) perhaps grouped in some way (ie if you have a continuous section of voxel material of a certain type its a group) 

 

and as it shows you the requirements you could perhaps have a substitute button next to the material type of the group you want to change and you can browse through other suitable materials 

 

Kind of like Space Engineers? I like it, but I don't see how it's going to solve the intellectual property problem. To build that construct you need those materials anyway, regardless of how they are listed.

[guttertrash]

Kind of like Space Engineers? I like it, but I don't see how it's going to solve the intellectual property problem. To build that construct you need those materials anyway, regardless of how they are listed.

 

well in space engineers the blocks have recipes to build them, in this it appears the voxel material is just a single material in different shapes so i was thinking you could substitute the material used for the voxel component

 

example:

 

I build a cube out of iron, make a blueprint and give you a DRM'd copy that only allows you to build the design.  You plug the blueprint into whatever it is you plug it into to start building it may have a summary of components and materials required, you see that it requires iron, but you have no iron you have aluminum so from the build summary you select substitute and you chose aluminum instead of iron, then you start building. you end up with a cube the same dimensions as the blueprint but its made of aluminum 

 

Think of it like downloading a design for a 3d printer, you may not be able to edit the design, but you can easily change the type of filament used and colour without needing access to edit the design itself.  

[devu]

I'm actually against blueprints, this is so common in all voxel based games these days. If someone can get the design out of BP it ruins the whole branch of economy. Shipbuilders. If you have created a signature ship, I would rather find a way to automate the process some sort of factory-like assembly, programmed via LUA or something like this.

 

Then actual physical product can be sold on market. It has a price tag because of effort.

It goes cheaper because of automation and competitiveness with other builders put into it.

But some may value custom builds more. I don't know. All I know uploading ready to go blueprint is just laziness and degrade shipbuilder as a profession in game that could emerge naturally.

[Halo381]

I'm actually against blueprints, this is so common in all voxel based games these days. If someone can get the design out of BP it ruins the whole branch of economy. Shipbuilders. If you have created a signature ship, I would rather find a way to automate the process some sort of factory-like assembly, programmed via LUA or something like this.

 

Then actual physical product can be sold on market. It has a price tag because of effort.

It goes cheaper because of automation and competitiveness with other builders put into it.

But some may value custom builds more. I don't know. All I know uploading ready to go blueprint is just laziness and degrade shipbuilder as a profession in game that could emerge naturally.

 

Why shouldn't  blueprints be a thing? It'd make the game more immersive, not to mention the fact that it opens an entirely new market for industrial corporations. A builder wants to sell his design to a corporation so that they might mass produce it, and he'll get 20% of the profit. I say, let him. Blueprints make it easier for builders to keep track of their constructs, and it can make them money. 

 

Welcome to the forums, btw.

[devu]

Well, Imho is exactly opposite. Are you buying a new Car or just a design for it? Surely the factory that makes cars would like to buy latest designs for competitive model But customers like to have a physical thing, finished product more than its design. If this is expensive bespoke build like a yacht. Rich people will spend millions on the new boat, not just a plans and DIY instruction. And I would imagine same apply for space ships.

 

The guy with resources and proper equipment can develop a manufacturing process for mass production, not the guy with a blueprint in his hand. That drives economy, not a guy with the blueprint in his hand. Because if everyone can do it easily there is no need for builders, no demand. I wouldn't bother to even look for such service myself.

 

Now, how immerse is to go with the design/blueprint that makes is magically appear once you have it? Even if you need to gather all materials yourself? Nowhere close to reality. This game has massive potential to do many things very well. Creates the engine for people driven economy, politics. So let's do the same for the craft. Blueprint is not the immersive experience. It's a shortcut and simplification.

[Wardion2000]

I don't think it is going to be nearly as easy to reverse engineer a ship as some people think.  The tools they plan to give us for design could make reverse engineering a MONUMENTAL task.

 

Keep in mind this excerpt from the devblog.

 

 

 

In terms of game design, we could opt for an easy strategy here. If you have the required number of engines in the right direction (no matter where they are), and you check the list of instruments needed, it would “magically” fly. With this approach, all ships would fly the same. Trying to put more engines, or optimizing their position would be more or less useless. Hoping to have an AI helping with automatic navigation would be up to the engineers of Novaquark only. Fancy a new way to drive your ship? Impossible. How about the weapons system? How about drones? All this would be predefined and more or less rigidly identical for all players. That’s not what we have in mind for Dual Universe. While we will provide basic templates to start with, you’ll be able to engineer your construct the way you want. Engines are real (they physically push your ship where they are, with the power they have), gravity is real, weapons have to turn and target (which also requires a targeter). If you are smarter than others, you can get the job done in a better way, get an edge in battle, or in trade by launching the new Falcon X-42 superfighter and change the balance of game combat with new tactics and possibilities. It’s not only about how you can use the predefined capabilities of ships within a predefined classical game setting, but it’s also about how you can redefine these capabilities. We call it: emergent gameplay.

 

This tells me if the airframe (spaceframe?) is suitably complex, I might not even be able to get it off the ground even if I reverse engineer it EXACTLY.  We will have to remember that ships will be more than the parts we slap together and that I can redefine how all those components work together with DPU's.  This isn't easy to replicate.  

 

I would also like to bring up how much I can customize these structures.  If it matters EXACTLY where I place an engine, you would be hard pressed to replicate its positioning if said engine was placed along a surface altered by one of the voxel smoothing tools for instance.  Being able to take a ship apart block by block means very little if I can't replicate those custom shaped blocks again.  In fact, with the tools we currently know about the original designer might be hard pressed to replicate one of his OWN ships from scratch if designed with such care.

[Vyz Ejstu]

The problem is not finding punishment, the problem is how to detect it.

 

How do you as a player tell that the ship in front of you is a "bootleg"?

 

how would the software tell that this ship (which to the player is obviously identical to some blueprinted/patented design) is a copy and no original design?

Without going through the very computationally expensive process of comparing it block-by-block with blueprinted designs.

And even if you can check all existing designs for similarities, where would be the cutoff for enduser changes?

 

A lot of problems i dont see a solution for.

"Thankfully, the Rights Duties Management System will take care of that. The only loophole for the espionage would be due to owner error/ trust problems. Other than that, the prospective thief may have to take the ship apart and create a clone piece by piece. While some may have the time for that, the R.D.M.S. would detect the ship as a clone, unless some parts are substituted or altered. A good choice would be for corporations to produce blueprints and sell them at a price. In Eve, blueprints are bought and sold, although you still have to source the appropriate materials and blueprints over there vary in efficiency, durability, and volume. What the developers may do in the long run, is provide a "clamp" like system. Once the product in question is finished and a blueprint made available, the system blocks anyone without the blueprint or anyone that hasn't been given permission from producing or using the product.... Sounds tedious, doesn't it? Well, the last thing we want to see is scamming en masse in Dual Universe, besides it's just an idea.

Let EVE remain in its own world. Captain Twerkmotor has advised me to let Dual reign in its own realm.

Pax Vobiscum.

"

[Cornflakes]

"Thankfully, the Rights Duties Management System will take care of that. The only loophole for the espionage would be due to owner error/ trust problems. Other than that, the prospective thief may have to take the ship apart and create a clone piece by piece. While some may have the time for that, the R.D.M.S. would detect the ship as a clone, unless some parts are substituted or altered. A good choice would be for corporations to produce blueprints and sell them at a price. In Eve, blueprints are bought and sold, although you still have to source the appropriate materials and blueprints over there vary in efficiency, durability, and volume. What the developers may do in the long run, is provide a "clamp" like system. Once the product in question is finished and a blueprint made available, the system blocks anyone without the blueprint or anyone that hasn't been given permission from producing or using the product.... Sounds tedious, doesn't it? Well, the last thing we want to see is scamming en masse in Dual Universe, besides it's just an idea.

Let EVE remain in its own world. Captain Twerkmotor has advised me to let Dual reign in its own realm.

Pax Vobiscum.

"

 

source where?

 

do you have any idea how large of an effort it would be to compare every and any newly created blueprint with all already existing ones?

 

it has to compare thousands (or even millions or even billions for the hugest devices) of voxels with all the other blueprints that already exist.

thats thousands of compare actions with endless amounts of blocks.

i dont want to pay the power bill for the poor server which has to do that

 

theoretically possible? yes

feasible in an MMO environment with thousands of people putting in blueprints? not by a long shot.

[Anaximander]

source where?

 

do you have any idea how large of an effort it would be to compare every and any newly created blueprint with all already existing ones?

 

it has to compare thousands (or even millions or even billions for the hugest devices) of voxels with all the other blueprints that already exist.

thats thousands of compare actions with endless amounts of blocks.

i dont want to pay the power bill for the poor server which has to do that

 

theoretically possible? yes

feasible in an MMO environment with thousands of people putting in blueprints? not by a long shot.

ACtually, it's not that difficult for a server to do compare blueprints. Google search can tell you a person's face if you search an image, from 370 degrees of angles of the head. Trust me, a server can compare two blueprints to tell if something is a copy-pasta of something else :V

 

 

Even Landmark could do that, and those guys had no idea what they were doing xD

 

 

And yes, 370 degrees was a pointful exaggeration

[Cornflakes]

and how many resources does google spend 

 

ACtually, it's not that difficult for a server to do compare blueprints. Google search can tell you a person's face if you search an image, from 370 degrees of angles of the head. Trust me, a server can compare two blueprints to tell if something is a copy-pasta of something else :V


Even Landmark could do that, and those guys had no idea what they were doing xD


And yes, 370 degrees was a pointful exaggeration

 

i have yet to witness google image search to turn up anything useful :V

 

and google's customers dont use lots of server resources for hours on end but only a few minutes a day.

and then compare googles server and development resources with this tiny speck of something here

[Anaximander]

and how many resources does google spend 

 

 

i have yet to witness google image search to turn up anything useful :V

 

and google's customers dont use lots of server resources for hours on end but only a few minutes a day.

and then compare googles server and development resources with this tiny speck of something here

Still, Voxels are essentially pixels in a 3D enviroment. You can compare their arrangement and have a margin of similarities before the code tells you "Yo mate, we witnessed your ride does resemble another bloke's sizzliling ride, so we have to ask you to improve upon it by a margin of 30% difference, cause yo behave ain't chill if you steal, you dig bruh?"

 

 

It's achievable really and it would make copycats who proceed on the "reverse engineered" ship design to share their income with the originator of the design. Similar to how GPU companies outsource their models to MSI or whatever lesser quality company exists (dissing like mad I know) and they get a revenue like that. It's a very chill idea imo, forcing players to come up with unique designs on ships instead of a copypasta business when it comes to blueprints.

 

 

Sure, you can recreate a Lamborghini by hand, but if you try and sell it as your "own" design, prepare for them italiano lawyers to come for your rear

[Cornflakes]

good luck trying to teach a computer "similarity".

Easy concept for humans, incredibly hard for computers

 

 

And neiter amd nor nvidia outsource models, they sell their already done silicon to the others and they place them on PCB's.

Their business doesnt change

[Anaximander]

good luck trying to teach a computer "similarity".

Easy concept for humans, incredibly hard for computers

 

 

And neiter amd nor nvidia outsource models, they sell their already done silicon to the others and they place them on PCB's.

Their business doesnt change

Not at all. Facebook's face recognition software can tell your face in a concert's crowd. And Voxels are like pixels, as I said, just in a three dimensional plane. You compare inventories of voxels. It's simple really.

[Thor Wotansen]

If indeed the building process is going to be so exacting and the physics of things like center of mass and center of thrust have bearing on the handling of vessels we are going to need a "virtual workshop" or something akin to the VAB or SPH in Kerbal Space Program, where the game allows you to see such attributes of your design.  This makes the whole blueprinting process easier as blueprints would have to be created in the design space and not just from physical objects wherever.

[Cornflakes]

Not at all. Facebook's face recognition software can tell your face in a concert's crowd. And Voxels are like pixels, as I said, just in a three dimensional plane. You compare inventories of voxels. It's simple really.

And how many hundreds of millions did facebook spend on make that workable?

How many servers does facebook dedicate to that process?

Does it work in a time frame that would prevent selling bootlegged ships or blueprints?

 

doing billions of compare actions is simple, yes, but far from being computationally feasible

[friendlytyrant03]

I wonder if it wil be like minecraft where you can stack blocks verticaly and then destroy the supporting block without having the other books falling down a cuz I wana build some floating islands.

[Vyz Ejstu]

I wonder if it wil be like minecraft where you can stack blocks verticaly and then destroy the supporting block without having the other books falling down a cuz I wana build some floating islands.

"You'll need thrust for that. A whole lot of thrust. That means you'll need fuel. A massive or even insane amount of it. Gravity is an active factor in Dual Universe which makes it impossible to have something floating in air without thrust holding up. Is it possible to make floating islands, probably. Will it be efficient? You're better off making powered platforms (you can sell the blueprints for revenue and still keep your floating glory)."

[Dominar]

You'd think Aluminum would be cheaper regardless as it's much easier to find, manufacture, etc?

[Dominar]

I wonder if it wil be like minecraft where you can stack blocks verticaly and then destroy the supporting block without having the other books falling down a cuz I wana build some floating islands.

This game is based on voxels, where as Minecraft uses static, meter by meter cubes. I'd imagine there will be some sort of physics in place to prevent floating objects. I certainly hope there will be att least.

[Quinn23]

To me, blueprints should not be alterable. I'd like to see authorship of blueprints. Like if you buy a blueprint for a ship designed by Zaphod Beeblebrox (instead of stolen), when you construct the ship, it would have somewhere on an info tab on the ship, "from a blueprint design by Zaphod Beeblebrox." It would be sort of an in-game acknowledgement and advertisement for the designer. Same with a chair or pre-fab housing or whatever . . .