Blueprints and Materials

[Jett_Quasar]

From what I've seen of the builder tool so far it appears that you can select different types of materials to design with.  Once a design is complete and we create a blueprint out of it can the materials be changed out of something with different properties.

 

For example, if I made a ship with a steel frame, could I use that same blueprint to create a ship using aluminum for the frame instead of steel in order to make the ship lighter and faster?

[Anaximander]

From what I've seen of the builder tool so far it appears that you can select different types of materials to design with.  Once a design is complete and we create a blueprint out of it can the materials be changed out of something with different properties.

 

For example, if I made a ship with a steel frame, could I use that same blueprint to create a ship using aluminum for the frame instead of steel in order to make the ship lighter and faster?

Batch slection should be a thing, but depends how the collision physics work in the game. Just because the frame is made out of aluminum it doesn't mean the ship is faster. Cause, you know, aluminum is not steel. Different properties. But I can see creating a frame out of steel, or titanium, and then making a Mark I model hull made out of wood, then replacing the wood with aluminum, or what have you. So yeah, let's petition for a mechanism similar to "Color to Alpha" method used in GIMP for editing textures. But that would also require pre-planning on your part and not freestyle modeling the ship. You would have to keep track of what you put where.

[Shynras]

From what I've seen of the builder tool so far it appears that you can select different types of materials to design with.  Once a design is complete and we create a blueprint out of it can the materials be changed out of something with different properties.

 

For example, if I made a ship with a steel frame, could I use that same blueprint to create a ship using aluminum for the frame instead of steel in order to make the ship lighter and faster?

 

We don't know if blueprints will be editable, but I think that's a pretty basic and common thing, so should be there.

[Jett_Quasar]

Right, so I see starships for example having different structures like a frame, internal habitation modules, armor plating, energy/fuel and propulsion systems.  Different materials would have different properties including cost.

 

So a materials list would look like this:

Steel          Strong       Heavy        Cheap

Aluminum   Weak        Light          A little more expensive

Titanium     Strong      Light           Very expensive

 

So you can take a single blueprint and by switching out the materials in the sub-assemblies you can make a ship that's lighter and faster/more maneuverable, but costs more or you can build the ship out of cheaper materials at the cost of performance.

[Cornflakes]

Batch slection should be a thing, but depends how the collision physics work in the game. Just because the frame is made out of aluminum it doesn't mean the ship is faster. Cause, you know, aluminum is not steel. Different properties. But I can see creating a frame out of steel, or titanium, and then making a Mark I model hull made out of wood, then replacing the wood with aluminum, or what have you. So yeah, let's petition for a mechanism similar to "Color to Alpha" method used in GIMP for editing textures. But that would also require pre-planning on your part and not freestyle modeling the ship. You would have to keep track of what you put where.

 

collision physics != mass calculations, though.

 

when theres any calculation of accelerations based on mass and thrust alu will improve the speed of a craft compared to some low grade steel

[Anaximander]

collision physics != mass calculations, though.

 

when theres any calculation of accelerations based on mass and thrust alu will improve the speed of a craft compared to some low grade steel

Yeah, that is if your ship is meant to be a swift jet for transportation means. Cause you know that thing is paper compared to a steel frame .

[nietoperek]

 

 

or example, if I made a ship with a steel frame, could I use that same blueprint to create a ship using aluminum

 

But blueprints don't work like that. I know that DU is a game, not course in engineering, but if you project something, you calculate all elements/parts in relations to each other. So if you change one part, you must change others too, because they will be "incompatible". In steel-aluminium example you should decrease weight of all other components, because aluminium bars cannot support weight which steel take with ease.

 

And, as far as I understood, BPs will be "snapshots" of already built constructs. So think about them as a photo more than recipe

[Cornflakes]

Yeah, that is if your ship is meant to be a swift jet for transportation means. Cause you know that thing is paper compared to a steel frame .

And? did anyone claim anything different?

[Anaximander]

And? did anyone claim anything different?

Will that aluminium tin can be DA CHOPPA?! xD

[Jett_Quasar]

But blueprints don't work like that. I know that DU is a game, not course in engineering, but if you project something, you calculate all elements/parts in relations to each other. So if you change one part, you must change others too, because they will be "incompatible". In steel-aluminium example you should decrease weight of all other components, because aluminium bars cannot support weight which steel take with ease.

 

And, as far as I understood, BPs will be "snapshots" of already built constructs. So think about them as a photo more than recipe

Yeah I don't know at this point how blueprints work - just making a suggestion that's all.

 

So basically what you're saying is if you want to change the materials that the ship is made out of you need to do it in the design phase.  Afterward you can make a new design using more advanced materials but the ship would be more expensive to build and that would be a different blueprint.

 

So what's to stop people from downloading your blueprint and then just editing it themselves to make a new and improved version of your ship?

[Anaximander]

Yeah I don't know at this point how blueprints work - just making a suggestion that's all.

 

So basically what you're saying is if you want to change the materials that the ship is made out of you need to do it in the design phase.  Afterward you can make a new design using more advanced materials but the ship would be more expensive to build and that would be a different blueprint.

 

So what's to stop people from downloading your blueprint and then just editing it themselves to make a new and improved version of your ship?

We could have different tiers of the same model, like Copper, Silver, Gold and Diamond, each being on a different price tag. Cause capitalism.

[nietoperek]

Capitan sum it up nicely. Nothing will stop them and nothing will - in real life it is called "reverse engineering" or "made in china"

[Jett_Quasar]

Yeah it happens to me all the time in KSP where people grab my craft files, make a few modifications and post pictures and YouTube videos.  I don't really care in that game because there's no monetary value in the design.

 

In Dual Universe, however the devs have said that there will be a market for ship blueprints that you can sell for in-game money.  If you make a great design that everybody wants and someone adds a new antenna then sells it as "new and improved" it's going to really really suck!  (I guess that's when you get all your pirate buddies together and bomb the crap out of his space station...)

[nietoperek]

So you sell ready-made construct, and keep BP only for you and your friends. It will add some interesting options for corporate espionage, theft and so on...

[Cornflakes]

So you sell ready-made construct, and keep BP only for you and your friends. It will add some interesting options for corporate espionage, theft and so on...

 

well, considering that its likely that you can make a blueprint of every built thing you own... and the game under guarantee being unable to check every single blueprint file for overlap when you submit a "new" (slightly modified or modified and then reversed) one... 

theres not much one can do to prevent theft.

[Halo381]

well, considering that its likely that you can make a blueprint of every built thing you own... and the game under guarantee being unable to check every single blueprint file for overlap when you submit a "new" (slightly modified or modified and then reversed) one... 

theres not much one can do to prevent theft.

 

But theft is just another aspect of emergent gameplay, is it not? In reality, it's entirely possible that someone would steal another's ideas/blueprints. I figure, while there should be a system in place that can prevent theft, it should not be taken out of the game entirely.

[Cornflakes]

But theft is just another aspect of emergent gameplay, is it not? In reality, it's entirely possible that someone would steal another's ideas/blueprints. I figure, while there should be a system in place that can prevent theft, it should not be taken out of the game entirely.

 

 

problem is: how to do so?

 

how do you prevent people from making copies of your constructs?

(without deadlocking the things and saying "its a blueprint based construct you cant change it")

[Halo381]

problem is: how to do so?

 

how do you prevent people from making copies of your constructs?

(without deadlocking the things and saying "its a blueprint based construct you cant change it")

 

A player made patent system, maybe? The reason I say player made and not dev made is because the devs usually make less loopholes than players do in terms of stealing a patent or blueprint (unless they're intentional loopholes). There should at least be a chance for it to succeed. 

 

Basically, a megacorp receives a request for a patent, and they accept and put out to the universe that anyone but this guy who makes this ship is wrong and should be killed and... stuff. Idk what the penalty would be,  besides a fine. It'd make for some interesting new organizations. In Pardus, a game I used to play, there was a faction called the EPS, the Esteemed Pilot's Syndicate. They were like the police of the universe, fighting crime and wrongdoing (on paper, at least. Not in actual gameplay). The TSS, The Shadow Syndicate, was their counterpart. They ran the black market, drug labs, slave camps, etc. 

 

Basically, what I'm getting at here is that a system like this might provide the need for a black market, and provide a need for people to police the universe.

[Cornflakes]

The problem is not finding punishment, the problem is how to detect it.

 

How do you as a player tell that the ship in front of you is a "bootleg"?

 

how would the software tell that this ship (which to the player is obviously identical to some blueprinted/patented design) is a copy and no original design?

Without going through the very computationally expensive process of comparing it block-by-block with blueprinted designs.

And even if you can check all existing designs for similarities, where would be the cutoff for enduser changes?

 

A lot of problems i dont see a solution for.

[Jett_Quasar]

The problem is not finding punishment, the problem is how to detect it.

 

How do you as a player tell that the ship in front of you is a "bootleg"?

 

how would the software tell that this ship (which to the player is obviously identical to some blueprinted/patented design) is a copy and no original design?

Without going through the very computationally expensive process of comparing it block-by-block with blueprinted designs.

And even if you can check all existing designs for similarities, where would be the cutoff for enduser changes?

 

A lot of problems i dont see a solution for.

 

After looking around a bit I believe this may have been covered by the following dev update:

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/05/21/rights-duties-management-system/

[Velenka]

Blueprint-able should be a right. If that right is not included in ships created from ships sold in a blueprint, then others would not be able to "bootleg" it. Anything that attaches to, or detaches from this construct would also inherit the blueprint-able right, or lack thereof.

 

I say attach or detach in the sense of SE's grid system and its merge blocks. If you want to use a docking element, this would not count as attaching or detaching. Two docked constructs would not be attached, and therefore the blueprint-able right would not transfer or change.

[Cornflakes]

And how does that prevent anyone from making a copy of a ship he has physical access to?

 

The RDMS is nice and dandy to limit the usage of your assets, yeah.

 

But theres nothing outlining any system that would prevent me from copying a ship block by block once i built it.

[Anaximander]

And how does that prevent anyone from making a copy of a ship he has physical access to?

 

The RDMS is nice and dandy to limit the usage of your assets, yeah.

 

But theres nothing outlining any system that would prevent me from copying a ship block by block once i built it.

Indeed, there should be optimisation parameters set, for example, the blueprint having access for you to change the guns but in a limited capacity, associated with the voltage required for each turret operate for example, while NOT alloywing you to change DPU or voxels.

[Cornflakes]

heck even that wouldnt keep me, if theres voxel based destruction i'd just cut the ship apart piecewise and copy what i see.

if that deconstruction happens with voxel tools or a low powered laser doesnt matter much.

[Velenka]

And how does that prevent anyone from making a copy of a ship he has physical access to?

 

The RDMS is nice and dandy to limit the usage of your assets, yeah.

 

But theres nothing outlining any system that would prevent me from copying a ship block by block once i built it.

 

Correct. But this is just reverse-engineering as an emergent mechanic. And it would only work for constructs that are small in size. Maybe you would spend months reverse-engineering a capital ship, but most won't.

 

This kind of thing happens in real life too. We have regulations and laws and courts to deal with it. And so DU would have need of a "Patent Regulator" organization which would attempt to stop plagiarism, which is another nice emergent mechanic. The "Patent Regulators" would hire the "Police" to "arrest" offending parties.