Science!!!

[Jett_Quasar]

This idea came to me when I was thinking about building cities on other planets.  I mean there's a lot of room to do stuff in a city, and I'm pretty sure it won't all be filled with administration offices...

 

In any case, KSP has a science mode in the game where you run experiments and gain science points.  How it works is you would take a science package to a specific location and run the experiment (which requires and exorbitant amount of energy).  Once the experiment completed successfully it would give you a certain number of science points you can use to research new technologies.  It's a fairly straight-forward game mechanic, but you can increase the science output by connecting a lab and man it with a couple of scientists.  Increasing the scientific experience of the crew would increase the output.  

 

There are different types of science experiments that need to be run in specific locations, and will provide diminishing returns, or possible even just a one-time output of points and then can't be reused.

 

For example there would be a gravitation device which would need to be in orbit of a planet and would tell you how strong the gravitational field is.  If the planet has an atmosphere a different unit could measure the density, but it would need to be placed on the surface.  The same can be done to measure temperature, radiation, magnetic fields etc.

 

The most interesting thing is you can put a probe in orbit of a planet and scan for resources.  In order to build self-sustaining colonies some form of scientific inquiry would be required to determine good landing and mining locations.

 

 

[Kiklix]

Sounds interresting. I think anything that allows us ultimately to master a given mechanic could be fun and immersive.

 

​I would love to ultimately see people be able to perform roles and get good at them. Kind of like "classes" in most MMOs. Not sure if something like that is available for launch, but it could be something to look forward in the future.

[Shynras]

This idea came to me when I was thinking about building cities on other planets.  I mean there's a lot of room to do stuff in a city, and I'm pretty sure it won't all be filled with administration offices...

 

In any case, KSP has a science mode in the game where you run experiments and gain science points.  How it works is you would take a science package to a specific location and run the experiment (which requires and exorbitant amount of energy).  Once the experiment completed successfully it would give you a certain number of science points you can use to research new technologies.  It's a fairly straight-forward game mechanic, but you can increase the science output by connecting a lab and man it with a couple of scientists.  Increasing the scientific experience of the crew would increase the output.  

 

There are different types of science experiments that need to be run in specific locations, and will provide diminishing returns, or possible even just a one-time output of points and then can't be reused.

 

For example there would be a gravitation device which would need to be in orbit of a planet and would tell you how strong the gravitational field is.  If the planet has an atmosphere a different unit could measure the density, but it would need to be placed on the surface.  The same can be done to measure temperature, radiation, magnetic fields etc.

 

The most interesting thing is you can put a probe in orbit of a planet and scan for resources.  In order to build self-sustaining colonies some form of scientific inquiry would be required to determine good landing and mining locations.

 

There's a skill system already that will do that job, so I doubt something like that will happen. To add it after release, wouldn't make sense, since at that point we would have already built and unlocked everything.

[Jett_Quasar]

The way I would actually like to see it is a little more in-depth.  You see in order to colonize a planet and mine it for resources, you first need to set up a lab on the surface in order to test materials and mining/manufacturing process so they can be updated to work in that specific environment.  

 

I look at it this way - a mining colony on Mars would require completely different equipment/technology than a mine on Venus.  Even if you're dealing with primarily Earth-like planets, there will be differences in the environment that will require adjustments to your equipment.  Some of the varying parameters you'll need to deal with are atmospheric density, atmospheric chemistry, surface gravity, and temperature.

 

There may be other factors as well, but it only makes sense that you would need to study an environment before you can exploit it for resources, or even build space cities on it's surface.

[Darius Sanguna]

There's a skill system already that will do that job, so I doubt something like that will happen. To add it after release, wouldn't make sense, since at that point we would have already built and unlocked everything.

 

As far as i had understand it the skill systems provides only operational skills, so skills that are needed to fly a ship, shoot, repair, mine certain materials and such things.

So no unlock of components and elements via skill system, i think we will get an actual research system.

[Shynras]

As far as i had understand it the skill systems provides only operational skills, so skills that are needed to fly a ship, shoot, repair, mine certain materials and such things.

So no unlock of components and elements via skill system, i think we will get an actual research system.

I'm pretty sure that the skill system is needed both to do stuff like flying a ship, both to unlock elements, like Eveonline, but faster.

[Darius Sanguna]

I'm pretty sure that the skill system is needed both to do stuff like flying a ship, both to unlock elements, like Eveonline, but faster.

 

That would be pretty boring and there would be no point in being a scientist, because it is offering no gameplay.

And how would you implement the unlocking? is the gunner tree getting the guns unlocked and the pilot tree the cockpits or will we have a seperate builder tree where all the elements are included. You can certainly see that both options come with serious drawbacks.

[Anaximander]

That would be pretty boring and there would be no point in being a scientist, because it is offering no gameplay.

And how would you implement the unlocking? is the gunner tree getting the guns unlocked and the pilot tree the cockpits or will we have a seperate builder tree where all the elements are included. You can certainly see that both options come with serious drawbacks.

You say drawbacks good sir, I see balance. A crafter should specialise. And there should be a builder tree.

 

 

The way they explained it, they say you an get all starting skills from all skill trees very fast, but the times increase on other trees the more time you have spent aupgrading another tree. So, you could be a top tier skill tree pilot and then have access to simple weapon systems for a jet-fighter, while your unlocked skills giving you the ability to operate a certain high mass starship due to your specialisation. But if you were to invest in another tree, that would take more and more time. So it's a balance really, similar to what other MMOs hardcode.

 

Same applies for a builder, specialising on making elements of higher complexity, while another specialises and gets access to more precise voxel tools, or even the ability to build in space.

 

For example, I aim for ground combat, so I'll get to unlock how to operate a powered armor. You, who might have invested into piloting, will be able to use a basic combat armor, that is not strong as mine. Then, there should be a "profession" list of trees, ways to get money. For example, I want to be a bounty hunter, so, I start on the "gathering" skill tree, upgrading it until I unlock the "tracker" skill, which allows me to detect people on my radar. You, as a pilot though, invest on "electromagnetic reads" which gives you the ability to track other ships in your radars, or at least, giving you the knowledge of how to operate those radars, by providing you a widget for your flying U.I.

 

It's all balanced, catered to the playstyle of each, creating different jobs. And hopefully, with a skillpoints loss system, there would be a greater insentive on going to mindless PvP other than losing a ship, as people will have to "recuperate" before heading back out there.

[Code24]

I've always disliked the science system in KSP because it was a very unconvincing connection between the collection of science points and suddenly having researched new parts.

 

So if there is a science system, it needs to make sense. A measurement of cosmic radiation shouldn't just arbitrarily lead to being able to build a new engine unit. 

 

Heres some ideas that come to mind:

 

-Have a Materials Research Unit

-Have resources which cannot be used until they are put into the Research Unit for a given amount of time.

-Allows players/organizations to corner the market on certain rare resources, if they have put a lot of effort into finding and researching a rare material

 

Srry if I repeated anyones ideas, didn't have time to read much of the above posts.

[Anaximander]

 

-Have a Materials Research Unit

-Have resources which cannot be used until they are put into the Research Unit for a given amount of time.

-Allows players/organizations to corner the market on certain rare resources, if they have put a lot of effort into finding and researching a rare material

 

Srry if I repeated anyones ideas, didn't have time to read much of the above posts.

Indeed, make creating alloys a part of the miner gameplay. Give incentive to a person to drop points into that tree, by alloying the creation of superior alloys and eventually metamaterials. This gameplay should be used to create mateials that do not exist naturally, or at least, are very rarely occuring naturally. It's an excellent idea good sir. Takes into account economics and politics. If said players with the ability to create such pieces of equipment got to set up  factory, it would attract the ire of an enemy faction that wants to capture said factory for themselves as well.

[Darius Sanguna]

You say drawbacks good sir, I see balance. A crafter should specialise. And there should be a builder tree.

 

 

The way they explained it, they say you an get all starting skills from all skill trees very fast, but the times increase on other trees the more time you have spent aupgrading another tree. So, you could be a top tier skill tree pilot and then have access to simple weapon systems for a jet-fighter, while your unlocked skills giving you the ability to operate a certain high mass starship due to your specialisation. But if you were to invest in another tree, that would take more and more time. So it's a balance really, similar to what other MMOs hardcode.

 

Same applies for a builder, specialising on making elements of higher complexity, while another specialises and gets access to more precise voxel tools, or even the ability to build in space.

 

For example, I aim for ground combat, so I'll get to unlock how to operate a powered armor. You, who might have invested into piloting, will be able to use a basic combat armor, that is not strong as mine. Then, there should be a "profession" list of trees, ways to get money. For example, I want to be a bounty hunter, so, I start on the "gathering" skill tree, upgrading it until I unlock the "tracker" skill, which allows me to detect people on my radar. You, as a pilot though, invest on "electromagnetic reads" which gives you the ability to track other ships in your radars, or at least, giving you the knowledge of how to operate those radars, by providing you a widget for your flying U.I.

 

It's all balanced, catered to the playstyle of each, creating different jobs. And hopefully, with a skillpoints loss system, there would be a greater insentive on going to mindless PvP other than losing a ship, as people will have to "recuperate" before heading back out there.

 

My point was that i don't want that the skills get incorporated with unlocking blueprints for functioning parts.

I want a system that is more oriented on real life.

In real life you can read books or go to school to grow your knowledge about certain things and how to operate them (in game that would be the skill system), but the knowledge how to operate them gives you not the ability to build them. For the ability to build them you would need the know-how and a blueprint and in real life the blueprints come from engineers and scientists (here is the seperated research system), the blueprints doesn't fly magically in your head just because you have read a book.

[nietoperek]

 

 

blueprints doesn't fly magically in your head just because you have read a book.

 

Blueprints often does after inspiring lectures. But there is big difference between ability to design something and actually build it

[Darius Sanguna]

Blueprints often does after inspiring lectures. But there is big difference between ability to design something and actually build it

 

No you speak from ideas not full fledged bluprints with which you could build something

[Anaximander]

My point was that i don't want that the skills get incorporated with unlocking blueprints for functioning parts.

I want a system that is more oriented on real life.

In real life you can read books or go to school to grow your knowledge about certain things and how to operate them (in game that would be the skill system), but the knowledge how to operate them gives you not the ability to build them. For the ability to build them you would need the know-how and a blueprint and in real life the blueprints come from engineers and scientists (here is the seperated research system), the blueprints doesn't fly magically in your head just because you have read a book.

I see, so you mean you shouldn't have to know how to build a sniper rifle to train how to use it. Which I'm tots with you on that. Which is what any sane game developer would do. But, you got to understand something. A civil engineer is not a electrician, just because he can tell you were the wiring should go in a building. The electrician knows how the wiring is supposed to be implemented. The same applies in our case. 

 

A builder can create a building made of certain materials and has access to specific tools to achieve his goals, perhas "carving" tools. But he would need to trade with a crafter if he wanted to have those glowing orbs he wants to put on his construct to make it prettier. You can't make every Element available to all palyes by default. That would be game breaking good sir. 

 

 

And chances are we are overthinking it. The game is on WASD and first person view. Chances are that for example "Advanced Armor Training" would make you go in normal running speed when wearing a heavy armor on your character, while an investment to building tree would make you able to perhaps have access to your stockpile of items in your claim, rather than whatever you have on your person by upgrading your nanofromer. People keep thinking like EVE. That game is a point and click adventure, DUAL is obviously not. There's room for organic upgrades rather than spreadsheets.

[Darius Sanguna]

A builder can create a building made of certain materials and has access to specific tools to achieve his goals, perhas "carving" tools. But he would need to trade with a crafter if he wanted to have those glowing orbs he wants to put on his construct to make it prettier. You can't make every Element available to all palyes by default. That would be game breaking good sir. 

 

I agree wit that

 

My Idea is basically:

Scientist can research the tech for components and voxel elements with function (Engiens, guns and such) and put it in blueprints for the crafter

Crafter knows how to work with the materials that are needed to craft components and elements, so he can craft these things

Builder gets the components and elements from the crafter and can put them in the world

 

 

The next idea of mine would be for material research, here you have theoratically the chance to implement random generated stuff.

For example a researcher puts two or more materials together to form a new material he has a certain chance of success (could depend on the skill level).

If he has success the properties of the new material would be random generated (in the generation could play in the used materials to raise the odds for certain properties to appear) and the name would be given by the Researcher.

[Anaximander]

I agree wit that

 

My Idea is basically:

Scientist can research the tech for components and voxel elements with function (Engiens, guns and such) and put it in blueprints for the crafter

Crafter knows how to work with the materials that are needed to craft components and elements, so he can craft these things

Builder gets the components and elements from the crafter and can put them in the world

 

 

The next idea of mine would be for material research, here you have theoratically the chance to implement random generated stuff.

For example a researcher puts two or more materials together to form a new material he has a certain chance of success (could depend on the skill level).

If he has success the properties of the new material would be random generated (in the generation could play in the used materials to raise the odds for certain properties to appear) and the name would be given by the Researcher.

OR, you could actually regulate the amount of elements put into a "mixer" and create, as I suggested, alloys. Following some laws of physics of course, with Iron and carbon making steel, yes, but there's more than one types of steel, all meant for different tasks, made by different levels of carbon in the mix. And even perhaps, with your idea, taking carbon and manufacturing carbon nanotubes as items needed to create more powerful batteries, or as upgrades for armored personel gear. All of which, would require a person must research into them and everyone is happy.

 

The minner procures the minerals.

The smelters extract, refine and create alloys.

The armorer gets to use the alloys and whatnot to make armors.

or the ship builder gets the materials and creates a mega-ship.

 

All of these professions have a different capital required to get into them, or are tightly linked to solo or group playstyles. Everyone is happy, the economy works and I get to have my upgrades and hopefully, a shotgun on on hand a chain-blade on the other.  

[Cornflakes]

I see, so you mean you shouldn't have to know how to build a sniper rifle to train how to use it. Which I'm tots with you on that. Which is what any sane game developer would do. But, you got to understand something. A civil engineer is not a electrician, just because he can tell you were the wiring should go in a building. The electrician knows how the wiring is supposed to be implemented. The same applies in our case. 

 

im pretty sure that most pilots have not that much of an idea how to build a good jet engine, and the people who build jet engines wont have that much of an idea how to fly an airplane which has the engines mounted.

 

sure, a pilot will have more understanding about avionics and aircraft technology in general than joe average, but will he know how to build an engine from scratch? very unlikely.

 

i think there should be at least two basic skill trees which are mostly independent.

using and creating

obviously, in the one you learn how to use stuff for the greatest effect, in the other you learn how to build stuff with the greatest effectivity.

 

there is some overlap, basic training in the respective other tree would be necessary for the highest echelons of both trees, but not much beyond that.

 

you dont need to know how exactly the HEAT warhead is built to use it for maximum effect, you only need a rough idea of what it does :shrug:

[Anaximander]

im pretty sure that most pilots have not that much of an idea how to build a good jet engine, and the people who build jet engines wont have that much of an idea how to fly an airplane which has the engines mounted.

 

sure, a pilot will have more understanding about avionics and aircraft technology in general than joe average, but will he know how to build an engine from scratch? very unlikely.

 

i think there should be at least two basic skill trees which are mostly independent.

using and creating

obviously, in the one you learn how to use stuff for the greatest effect, in the other you learn how to build stuff with the greatest effectivity.

 

there is some overlap, basic training in the respective other tree would be necessary for the highest echelons of both trees, but not much beyond that.

 

you dont need to know how exactly the HEAT warhead is built to use it for maximum effect, you only need a rough idea of what it does :shrug:

 

That was my idea as well on the "snioer rifle builder/sharpshooter" example And well, the skill trees should be variables on a certain gameplay. Ground Combat, Vehicle Combat, Construction, Gathering, Researching and Crafting, with all them having different paths of advancing and once you reach the top of one, the next time you invest in another you simply take very long and cost a lot of skillpoints, with the possibility of cross-tree synergy which could create "classes" in a way.

[Jett_Quasar]

I see science as being different than a skill tree.  Basically doing science on a specific planet would improve the efficiency of your facilities.  So for instance you could build mining and processing equipment on the surface of a planet, but they would be very inefficient because of the change in conditions from one environment to the next.  

 

By adding a lab to your colony and manning it with NPC scientists, you could improve the efficiency of your equipment on that planet and maybe get a bonus on your craft that defend the settlements on the for that world.

[Velenka]

I would be against preventing anybody from using/creating/building/placing everything forever, but that's where the skill system comes in to balance that. With skills, some people can handle some equipment better than those without.

 

The same principle could work for science/tech research too. Do the science, and your effectiveness increases. If one person has the skills with mediocre equipment and another has no skills with advanced equipment, they would be able to keep up each other. This way, with both high skills and advanced equipment, you would have the "best" advantage over others.

 

For example, I'm trying to make a simple sword. I don't have the skills to make a very good one, but I do have some advanced high-carbon steel that the other guy doesn't have. The other guy, though, is an expert sword-smith so he can make a very good sword. Compare the two swords. Mine would be useful because it was made with advanced tech, and the other guy's is useful because it's a well crafted sword.

 

And both should be relatively balanced, with X progress in skills taking about the same amount of time and resources as X progress in science or research.

[Anaximander]

I see science as being different than a skill tree.  Basically doing science on a specific planet would improve the efficiency of your facilities.  So for instance you could build mining and processing equipment on the surface of a planet, but they would be very inefficient because of the change in conditions from one environment to the next.  

 

By adding a lab to your colony and manning it with NPC scientists, you could improve the efficiency of your equipment on that planet and maybe get a bonus on your craft that defend the settlements on the for that world.

Err, there won't be any NPCs outside of the Arkship sir. When people speak of A.I. ,they mean of automatons  doing chores like mining.

[Anaximander]

I would be against preventing anybody from using/creating/building/placing everything forever, but that's where the skill system comes in to balance that. With skills, some people can handle some equipment better than those without.

 

The same principle could work for science/tech research too. Do the science, and your effectiveness increases. If one person has the skills with mediocre equipment and another has no skills with advanced equipment, they would be able to keep up each other. This way, with both high skills and advanced equipment, you would have the "best" advantage over others.

 

For example, I'm trying to make a simple sword. I don't have the skills to make a very good one, but I do have some advanced high-carbon steel that the other guy doesn't have. The other guy, though, is an expert sword-smith so he can make a very good sword. Compare the two swords. Mine would be useful because it was made with advanced tech, and the other guy's is useful because it's a well crafted sword.

 

And both should be relatively balanced, with X progress in skills taking about the same amount of time and resources as X progress in science or research.

Yes, there should be a combination of materials in crafting items or elements. That is a proper way of doing "science" as different materials would cater to different uses and performances associated.

[Jett_Quasar]

Err, there won't be any NPCs outside of the Arkship sir. When people speak of A.I. ,they mean of automatons  doing chores like mining.

 

Well, the NPC's would be inside the lab - all you would need to do is construct a building and pay the virtual "lab staff" in the building and let the benefits roll in.  You know sort of like in city building games...

 

[UniversalG]

as far as im aware the game wont have NPC's, so science will be in the form of exploration or a skill tree than something practical like most want

[Anaximander]

as far as im aware the game wont have NPC's, so science will be in the form of exploration or a skill tree than something practical like most want

Indeed, or, you know, actually constructing ships and figuring out what makes them lighter and sturdier. Those with the techno know-how, will figure out how to build a ship's joints to withstand hits better, while others will build flying coffins.