Jump to content

Voxelmancy


Hampius

Recommended Posts

Hello everyone!

 

I've used to be a big fan of EVE Online. I've also have been a big fan and backer of (Everquest) Landmark, at least until it failed to deliver what was promised... Anyway, when I heard that EVE Online and Landmark might be mixed up to create something that might push MMO genre to higher state, I just couldn't hesitate and backed the project yesterday. 

 

However, some of you know how Landmark ended up (and Everquest Next). One of the reasons was the case of using voxel engine, which proved to be technically complex in what it would, but was not able to deliver. But...it was fun to build stuff there. I really enjoyed the freedom of doing that, with all those tools that were being constantly updated since the release of closed beta in Feb 2014. It was a blast to see really talented builders making the best of voxel engine that LM was using.

 

To get to the point - from what I've seen on movies, right now Dual Universe will allow to build just simple shapes using basic tools which do not involve things like nanovoxels, etc. So basically DU at this moment is on this level (I'll use LM analogy here):

 

x38r9i.jpg

As you can see on this picture, most forms are rather cubic in shape - squares, squares everywhere... ;)

 

Over some time, LM evolved to have the tools capable of creating almost any shape that user wanted, therefor in some areas it provided usefullness compared to 3D modelling programs on the market. It started to allow to build things like that (another LM analogy):

 

2iqidf7.jpg

 

oax07l.jpg

 

1) So, the question is, will Dual Universe building tools be evolving enough to be able to build some complex ship/building designs and really let our imagination shine in this game? :)

 

2) One of good things in the process of creating Everquest LM/Next was the fact, that community was really involved in doing that, by participating in organised tournaments in building diffirent kind of things. Will we see something like that in the process of making DU?

 

Kind regards,

Hampius

 

 

PS. English is not my native language, so please forgive for any mistake that happened, and if something is not understandable, let me know and I'll try to redefine my questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DU already has a some amount of tools that you can see in their building demo, that allow you to make many shapes.

 

Yes, but these are the basic tools, like selection tool, add tool, cut tool, shape tool. It's what LM had at the beginning (I've described the diffirence with those pictures).

What I'm asking here, is if those tools are going to evolve, mostly by adding things like line tool, smooth tool and increasing general precision of voxels. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that landmark and dual universe both use the same voxel technology called "Dual Contorting" or if not very very similar systems systems.

 

As it is now the DU tech is still in pre-alpha and they haven't developed all the sculpting tools or created much game content but I believe you should be able to get the same results as in landmark.

 

I played landmark for a bit and I was initially very excited about the building tools (even though I had no skills) but it lack enough actual game mechanics to make it hold my attention.

 

 

edit: I am a developer, I have played around with game tools like unity and I read the SIGGRAPH white paper on dual contorting. As I understand it you should be able to do almost anything with the right tools, the only limit is the voxel resolution which I think is slightly bigger than landmark.

 

edit2: According to this the voxels are the same as landmark: http://landmark.wikia.com/wiki/Voxel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Voxel resolution and problems with textures (and very bad LOD) were quite a pain in Landmark to create something really, really complex, not to mention that in order to create let's say curved stairs, one had to spend half and hour doing some magic to achieve that ;) It was satisfying to create stuff, but very time consuming. 

 

PS. BTW, if I understand it correctly, to make voxel stuff moving (flying), program has to automatically transfer voxel stuff to mesh after it's done, right? This process cannot be undone if I'm right. This feature was discussed in LM several times, but finally it was not possible to achieve with upgraded (complex) tools due to many errors that it generated, etc (I'm not an expert in technical stuff, so can't explain it better I'm afraid).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh god yes, making a spiral staircase was rage inducing.

 

PS. BTW, if I understand it correctly, to make voxel stuff moving (flying), program has to automatically transfer voxel stuff to mesh after it's done, right? This process cannot be undone if I'm right. This feature was discussed in LM several times, but finally it was not possible to achieve with upgraded (complex) tools due to many errors that it generated, etc (I'm not an expert in technical stuff, so can't explain it better I'm afraid).

 

No you can edit your constructs after building them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Voxel resolution and problems with textures (and very bad LOD) were quite a pain in Landmark to create something really, really complex, not to mention that in order to create let's say curved stairs, one had to spend half and hour doing some magic to achieve that ;) It was satisfying to create stuff, but very time consuming. 

 

PS. BTW, if I understand it correctly, to make voxel stuff moving (flying), program has to automatically transfer voxel stuff to mesh after it's done, right? This process cannot be undone if I'm right. This feature was discussed in LM several times, but finally it was not possible to achieve with upgraded (complex) tools due to many errors that it generated, etc (I'm not an expert in technical stuff, so can't explain it better I'm afraid).

 

DU already explained that by telling us they do texture+mesh baking to optimize the efficiency of the rendering. every time a voxel is changed, only the relevant polygons and textures are modified, thus keeping it quite fast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DU already explained that by telling us they do texture+mesh baking to optimize the efficiency of the rendering. every time a voxel is changed, only the relevant polygons and textures are modified, thus keeping it quite fast.

 

I'll believe it when I see it in action ;) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

they did show it with the big station if my memory is correct.

 

The way I see it right now (though I'm not an expert) is that big station had some serious LOD issues similar to what is going on in LM. But in LM there are a lot more complex shape built, but this station was made with some simple voxel shapes and some props (elements in DU case). Anyway I'm forward to putting my hands on alpha version and seeing it myself :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but these are the basic tools, like selection tool, add tool, cut tool, shape tool. It's what LM had at the beginning (I've described the diffirence with those pictures).

What I'm asking here, is if those tools are going to evolve, mostly by adding things like line tool, smooth tool and increasing general precision of voxels. 

 

These tools are explicitly mentioned in the building dev blog (https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2016/02/20/builder-gameplay-voxel-tools-elements/#more-531)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Landmar's "Voxelomancy" is actually a collection of unintended bugs that the Devs tots "intended" for.

 

 

DUAL's "voxelomancy" is an actual thought-out game feature :P

 

"Voxelmancy" was a collection of special techniques which allowed things previously not possible to be build, to be created by using several (usually time consuming) processes. It was not because of bugs, but because of that voxel engine on which LM was based, was R&D by LM Devs, who didn't even know some things that were possible :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Voxelmancy" was a collection of special techniques which allowed things previously not possible to be build, to be created by using several (usually time consuming) processes. It was not because of bugs, but because of that voxel engine on which LM was based, was R&D by LM Devs, who didn't even know some things that were possible :)

Oh believe you me,  ForgeLight Engine is a collection of bugs and Voxelomancy is a byproduct of those bugs. Daybreak never intended for people to be able to create off-set voxels. They didn't expect for many of the things that Tenma and whoever else figured out on their own. ForeLight is a crap engine, with an even more crappy shaderwork.

 

What the LM coders did, was ROLL with the bugs and call them "features". It's like a clumsy idiot making something awesome in his idiotic frenzy that he didn't expect and saying "it was my plan all along, yeah, tots my plan from the beginning! What? Frames drop below 0 when you look in the sky or in water? That's also a feature, since the problem with the frames is tied to the bug that allows for inverted voxels!"

 

 

NovaQuark on the other hahd, actually intends for their tools to work properly and not need "difficult processes", also known as, RECREATING A BUG.

 

You drunk the Landmark Kool-Aid too much good sir. Too much I say to thee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello everyone!

 

I've used to be a big fan of EVE Online. I've also have been a big fan and backer of (Everquest) Landmark, at least until it failed to deliver what was promised... Anyway, when I heard that EVE Online and Landmark might be mixed up to create something that might push MMO genre to higher state, I just couldn't hesitate and backed the project yesterday. 

 

However, some of you know how Landmark ended up (and Everquest Next). One of the reasons was the case of using voxel engine, which proved to be technically complex in what it would, but was not able to deliver. But...it was fun to build stuff there. I really enjoyed the freedom of doing that, with all those tools that were being constantly updated since the release of closed beta in Feb 2014. It was a blast to see really talented builders making the best of voxel engine that LM was using.

 

To get to the point - from what I've seen on movies, right now Dual Universe will allow to build just simple shapes using basic tools which do not involve things like nanovoxels, etc. So basically DU at this moment is on this level (I'll use LM analogy here):

 

x38r9i.jpg

As you can see on this picture, most forms are rather cubic in shape - squares, squares everywhere... ;)

 

Over some time, LM evolved to have the tools capable of creating almost any shape that user wanted, therefor in some areas it provided usefullness compared to 3D modelling programs on the market. It started to allow to build things like that (another LM analogy):

 

2iqidf7.jpg

 

oax07l.jpg

 

1) So, the question is, will Dual Universe building tools be evolving enough to be able to build some complex ship/building designs and really let our imagination shine in this game? :)

 

2) One of good things in the process of creating Everquest LM/Next was the fact, that community was really involved in doing that, by participating in organised tournaments in building diffirent kind of things. Will we see something like that in the process of making DU?

 

Kind regards,

Hampius

 

 

PS. English is not my native language, so please forgive for any mistake that happened, and if something is not understandable, let me know and I'll try to redefine my questions.

Fellow Landmarkien, they dont know about microvoxels, nanovoxels, negative voxels it is not an advertised part of the voxel engine, I wanted to see if the Alpha team will discover these things, most likely they will. you and I are going to be popular members of the Alpha team, we know alot about the voxel engine. I do hope NQ gives us the same tools as we had in LM, we can work with NQ to implement that, give them screenshoots of the LM tools work with them to get as close as possible to those tools. Really glad to have a fellow landmark builder here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CaptainTwerkmotor

DID you play or were a member of the alpha or beta team for LM, were you dev on LM or Everquest next ???, I have been part of the beta for LM, im still playing LM, WITH ZERO ISSUES. as im writing this LM is running in the background, Perfectly, LM has the best looking ocean of any game i have played to date.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dealing with everquest Next, Im still pissed they shut that down(im reminded of that everytime i play landmark), i was looking forward to playing the next gen MMORPG, but Im glad I have landmark to play, now i see why I stayed with LM, DU is using the same engine, so hopefully i will have my everquest next. I use to love being a D&D Wizard, I was one in Everquest 2, but now im a Starship Captain, I love space games, I will work with the Devs to Make DU the best game Ever, it will combine the best of several games I currently play Second life, Landmark, Space engineers.  I have experience with scripting, building ( with prims and voxels). all that aside, From my perspective as a beta tester and player of LM, it ran, played great, the bugs that did come up were dealt with by the devs. they did the best job making landmark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want to know more about how voxels will probably work in Dual Universe check out this forum post, https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/14-voxel-tools-pre-alpha-game-design/

And this post in the dev blog, https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2016/02/20/builder-gameplay-voxel-tools-elements/#more-531

 

We definitely have no idea yet whether Dual will have anything like what was called "voxelmancy" in Landmark.

 

What we do know is that the voxel engine being used in Dual Universe is similar to the one used in Landmark.  Not the same though.  Landmark uses Voxelfarm while Dual is using their own voxel engine.  Forgelight is Landmark's graphics engine and has nothing to do with anything.

 

The voxels in Dual Universe should have a similar amount of flexibility as Landmark.  But we have no idea whether NQ wants to support or allow the kind of stuff that was called "voxelmancy" in Landmark.  Things like shrinking a voxel to smaller then the standard grid, or offsetting it outside of the grid.

 

Personally i hope they don't limit us at all.  But unlike Landmark i hope they give us a set of tools that lets us intentionally manipulate voxels however we want.

 

On the other hand in Dual i also hope we won't necessarily feel the need for as much voxel detail as we did in Landmark because we'll have more mesh elements to decorate with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...