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Ammunition: War-Time Economics.


Anaximander

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My idea so far.
 

  • Make ammunition (bullets, slugs, energy packs) take up inventory space, or cargo space in your ship.
  • ​Give meaning and a price-tag for every shot people fire.​
     

Put a price in warfare this way. War never changes, but prices sure do. This way you can have wars over resources and make places with more of a material be more profitable due to trading that. 

By limiting the ammunition you can carry, It could create a much more diverse gameplay rather than "press 1 that many times".

 

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My idea so far.

 

  • Make ammunition (bullets, slugs, energy packs) take up inventory space, or cargo space in your ship.

  • ​Give meaning and a price-tag for every shot people fire.​

     

Put a price in warfare this way. War never changes, but prices sure do. This way you can have wars over resources and make places with more of a material be more profitable due to trading that. 

 

By limiting the ammunition you can carry, It could create a much more diverse gameplay rather than "press 1 that many times".

The idea is good and sound but isnt this 100% implemented in a sandbox game like this? atleast it should be...

War and economy go hand in hand along with politics and it would be a big let down if it wasnt like this. I would think twice about playing if this isnt in the game...

 

Nothing better than to assault enemy supply line and take his stuff just to kill him with his own products :D

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I still wonder why people want all of this (which is fine) like ammo count, limited or 'weighted' fuel for spaceships in turn and a lot more ...

 

... but still refuse to have basic food mechancis in the game where you perhaps have to eat once a day for like a few seconds or perhaps a bit more often per every few hours of gameplay :D

 

I'm in favor of this by the way for both characters and vehicles - ideally there will be melee alternatives later on.

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I still wonder why people want all of this (which is fine) like ammo count, limited or 'weighted' fuel for spaceships in turn and a lot more ...

 

... but still refuse to have basic food mechancis in the game where you perhaps have to eat once a day for like a few seconds or perhaps a bit more often per every few hours of gameplay :D

 

I'm in favor of this by the way for both characters and vehicles - ideally there will be melee alternatives later on.

 

im still unsure about the whole survival mechanic with food and water where you have to eat every once in a while. Some games have done it really bad where you basicly have to eat just a small amount of food every 10 mins to function above average lvl in activites and stuff like that.

 

But i do like the idea of commodities that have to be traded and flown across the universe and used by people. This create alot of new tactics where you can starve ppl out like with sieges of castles in the old days. It all depends on how its implemented tho

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@Warden


Food and Water = survival


Ammunition Count = PvP and Economy. Especially Economy. A faction that can manufacture its own share of ammo is usually the one to apply the most pressure, thus, having more power, something the game advertises on.

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Hey, I'd say food count also counts towards survival (and economy). The higher the better! :P

 

But I didn't mean to change topic or anything.

 

 

 

This is actually an interesting thought. I mean as you produce ammo I wonder how it may work. This is both sandbox and an MMO. Do we see people dig up whole planets for precious materials? Or can we see some middle-ground solution where we perhaps have resource clusters that perhaps allow some harvester to be placed near or on them so they produce a longer lasting steady input of materials?

 

I can see factories pop up all over mineral rich worlds for war production alone ... or alternatively if there is no harvesting via machines (would be pretty outdated tho in that age) many holes and cages dug by people. In turn, certain ammo factories or hubs could become potential targets in conflicts.

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Well, merchants players that don't like to actively PvP can act as supply ships, while leaving the possibility of auxiliary ships on PvP that can mine asteroids and manufacture ammo on the fly. The point is, the game is not advertised as Survival. If it did, yes, I would argue on food and water be a vital part, but since it is not focued there, food and water shouldn't matter. Plus ammo count and fuel count should act as a logistics tool for people who want to go explore. If you have endless ammo and fuel, that makes exploration a waste of time from point A to B, while with ammo count and fuel count, it transforms it into an adventure. 

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I still wonder why people want all of this (which is fine) like ammo count, limited or 'weighted' fuel for spaceships in turn and a lot more ...

 

... but still refuse to have basic food mechancis in the game where you perhaps have to eat once a day for like a few seconds or perhaps a bit more often per every few hours of gameplay :D

 

I'm in favor of this by the way for both characters and vehicles - ideally there will be melee alternatives later on.

Personally - Blockades would be tricky, you do have to remember this is a three dimensional space infinite in every direction supposedly, now if they had a set location they have to go to - say a station - that is what you would have to block. Now trying to do the same thing to a planet, that is another story totally. 

 

 

Hey, I'd say food count also counts towards survival (and economy). The higher the better! :P

 

But I didn't mean to change topic or anything.

 

 

 

This is actually an interesting thought. I mean as you produce ammo I wonder how it may work. This is both sandbox and an MMO. Do we see people dig up whole planets for precious materials? Or can we see some middle-ground solution where we perhaps have resource clusters that perhaps allow some harvester to be placed near or on them so they produce a longer lasting steady input of materials?

 

I can see factories pop up all over mineral rich worlds for war production alone ... or alternatively if there is no harvesting via machines (would be pretty outdated tho in that age) many holes and cages dug by people. In turn, certain ammo factories or hubs could become potential targets in conflicts.

Ammo / Ammo types in my opinion would be tied to research and then production. "You do after all, need to know how to make the round, and then have whats needed to make it." One that is all done, then they can be traded on the market or at other hubs of activity. 

 

 

 

Mining in my opinion may do something like Eve online does with theirs - using pre designed or randomly generated solid asteroids that you mine with lasers giving you resources in your inventory/cargo in return. Every rock/asteroid has a yield amount it can give then it is depleted. This does save a lot on system performance but it may not exactly fit into what there trying to accomplish with the sandbox feel of things. As for planetary mining - that is a tricky one. Planets that are destructible eat up massive amounts of system resources, so I will not guess as to how they plan to achieve that, at-least until I see it for myself.  

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Everything needs to cost.  Power generation to power weapons... shields... engines... needs to deplete some resource.  And that resource needs to be stored somewhere.

 

Procedural Storage tanks.  Make them any size you like and they can store whatever... based on the size they are.

 

If we want realistic economies and realistic ship designs then this stuff needs to be in. 

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@WilksChekov

 

Asteroids won't be the only way to mine. I'm talking planets here, planets will be a literal point of contest due to the resources being present. Sure, asteroids could have rare elements on them, like rhenium, but not for them to be the only way to mine. Cause EVE mining is boring. Perhaps in DU you can send guys on E.V.A. and let them drill the asteroid manually, as they would do on a planet O.o

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I still wonder why people want all of this (which is fine) like ammo count, limited or 'weighted' fuel for spaceships in turn and a lot more ...

 

... but still refuse to have basic food mechancis in the game where you perhaps have to eat once a day for like a few seconds or perhaps a bit more often per every few hours of gameplay :D

 

its pretty easy actually, for things like ammunition, fuel etc. you chose to need them. You don't need to participate in space warfare or something alike, if you do then you chose to have to organize your ships and ressources for that one war/raid/whatever, and afterwards your free again.

For mechanics like food/water etc. you do not chose to do it, you must do it. Always. Whenever you want to play. 

 

Please don't tell me, that you don't see that enormous difference^^

 

Ammo weight, fuel etc. directly impact the design of spaceships and thus the PvP, it makes carriers viable, limits the size of spaceships without any wierd artifical limit and turns war in an all out effort for alliances who need to have the logistics to survive it longer than a day.The impact on War, Organizations and Economy is severe.

Food on the other hand, aside from needing a small container to store the food for several days, and having to use it in certain periods adds no value to the game.

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I think the food versus ammo thing is more based on real life experience. If I didn't worry about getting something to eat a few times a day I could spend that money and time educating myself and maybe getting something done in this life.

 

As vylqun and the good capn said is more a game balancing mechanic versus a constant need.

 

Though if The ships cargo works like the kadpak while technically having a limit I think even seemingly small ships will carry a significant reserve of ammo.

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I like this idea very much, I think it will add very much to the game. I am not sure what I think about the Food and water thing, I do disagree, but I do also agree With it. Maybe some one should make a poll about it.

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its pretty easy actually, for things like ammunition, fuel etc. you chose to need them. You don't need to participate in space warfare or something alike, if you do then you chose to have to organize your ships and ressources for that one war/raid/whatever, and afterwards your free again.

For mechanics like food/water etc. you do not chose to do it, you must do it. Always. Whenever you want to play. 

 

Please don't tell me, that you don't see that enormous difference^^

 

Ammo weight, fuel etc. directly impact the design of spaceships and thus the PvP, it makes carriers viable, limits the size of spaceships without any wierd artifical limit and turns war in an all out effort for alliances who need to have the logistics to survive it longer than a day.The impact on War, Organizations and Economy is severe.

Food on the other hand, aside from needing a small container to store the food for several days, and having to use it in certain periods adds no value to the game.

Food and water would add value to the game. For example the value of certain types of planets and i speak here about long-term value, that is more as simply "mine the planet empty and leave". For example: without food are planets with a rich fauna and flora, but without valueable minerals, basically worthless, besides the aesthetics of course, but if you have a mechanic for food, this type of planet would get a significant strategic value (i assume that it would be easier to grow food on planets then in space).

 

Now to warfare: If you have a food mechanic and you want to go to war, your first thought is about food, food for the most vital part of your fleets and armies, your Soldiers and a soldier with an empty stomach can't fight and if there is nobody who could fight for you, the greatest ammo and fuel reserves aren't going to help you. So you could food also see as ammunition or food.

 

I will not even begin with the economic possibilities that could arise with a good food mechanic.

 

And the value of something will always be determinate by the need for it, be it food to survive or ammunition to shoot someone you don't like. So everytime you add a need for something you will get a whole new universe of possibilities, but if you take away a need, be it ammo, food or something else, you will limit yourself.

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This game is NOT survival. It's an MMORPG. It's not Empyrion. Food and water is a choir. You know what game has the least playerbase? A SURVIVAL yame. Why? Cause it's a shitty genre for MMO. You make PK a core element, not a choive.

 

 

Having food and water is NOT fun. It's a choir, a hardcore element for single player games. Dual is NOT Empyrion. Empyrion hws goals of servers with 100 people. Dual is aiming much much higher.

 

 

And to bash the message through your ''hardcore playah'' skull'', Dual is going to have paid suscription. The devs won't add food to that. Why?

 

 

CAUSE IT TAKES TIME OFF THE CUSTOMER'S PLAYTIME.

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Food and water would add value to the game. For example the value of certain types of planets and i speak here about long-term value, that is more as simply "mine the planet empty and leave". For example: without food are planets with a rich fauna and flora, but without valueable minerals, basically worthless, besides the aesthetics of course, but if you have a mechanic for food, this type of planet would get a significant strategic value (i assume that it would be easier to grow food on planets then in space).

 

Now to warfare: If you have a food mechanic and you want to go to war, your first thought is about food, food for the most vital part of your fleets and armies, your Soldiers and a soldier with an empty stomach can't fight and if there is nobody who could fight for you, the greatest ammo and fuel reserves aren't going to help you. So you could food also see as ammunition or food.

 

I will not even begin with the economic possibilities that could arise with a good food mechanic.

 

And the value of something will always be determinate by the need for it, be it food to survive or ammunition to shoot someone you don't like. So everytime you add a need for something you will get a whole new universe of possibilities, but if you take away a need, be it ammo, food or something else, you will limit yourself.

 

You talk about warfare with armies thausand of peoples strong over a course of months, you don't really expect that to happen right?

A war effort in DU wont take longer than a few days, if you have to eat once every 24 hours then its hardly an effort to organize it and it certainly doesn't have enough weight to influence you in any way. If you want to increase the amount people must have to eat to make an impact for warfare, then sorry, no one will play the game except for some extreme roleplayers, because then you'd need several kg/day.

 

You seem to have the assumption that there are millions of people to feed, which simply isnt the case. Reeeeaally big wars in DU will most likely involve some hundred players (and thats highly unlikely already). Even if they stay in the warzone for a week without returning that means maybe 1000 kg of food or water, thats nothing compared to the ammonition and fuel needed within that week.

 

So concerning the construction of ships (non-exploration ones) and for wars food is neglectable in amount and weight.

 

 

And the Value of planets for growing food? Please, we have a scifi game, even if food is needed people would just put a hydroponic farm in a desert and thats it. Doesn't make green planets any more valuable.

 

 

So all in all, food adds nothing of value to the game.

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This game is NOT survival.

 

 

 

From their facebook page:

 

"We are considering to implement survival gameplay. In the case we would develop this aspect, we haven't decided possible features yet. Some ideas we are currently looking into are harsh environmental conditions, like atmosphere toxicity, gravity, temperature. The goal is to have survival gameplay when you explore a wild, unknown planet, not colonized yet. But once proper gear or element is crafted and population start to grow on the said planet, all the survival aspect would slowly fade as the environment start to be controlled."

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/dualuniverse/posts/561569937348716?comment_id=562179610621082&reply_comment_id=562641063908270&comment_tracking={"tn"%3A"R8"}

 

 

I realize you mostly refer to food / water consumption but I'm mainly replying to the statement "This won't be a survival game" with my point here being "It could contain survival gameplay elements if the devs feel like it"

 

And I wouldn't mind at least "natural" survival mechanics where an area may be too toxic, hot, cold, etc without the right gear. That sounds reasonable to me, food and water aside completely. Adds some tactical element too if you want to put some storage, house or base in some not so nice region.

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WWarden

Well, they are considering it. If they want the game to be working with subscription, I can't see it having survivail. It will make PK for food a part of the game. And nobody wants that shit. PvP ? Sure. But pack-mentality for survival will turn people off the game.

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A mmorpg can't limit their playerbase to much, else it will vanish within a few years. Every Tag you slap on a game reduces the number of potential players.

Science fiction is already a genre which has far less players than fantasy, remove instanced pve dungeon and another big chunk of players is gone.

The tag voxel builder game also decreases the amount of potential players. If you want to slap a complete survival tag on it, with the nessecerity to eat/drink/sleep etc. then another big amount of players will be gone, and you will most likely never have more than a few hundred players play the game.

 

Some mechanics found in survival games might be ok, like a certain space suite to visit harzadous enviroments is ok, it fits well in the exploration theme. But those hardcore survival mechanics are a no go.

 

Just as example, Space engineers has in average 4k-5k players online, guess how many would quite the game if they had to interrupt their shipbuilding just to look for food or water somewhere. Believe me, they wouldn't be able to keep that number of players.

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Survival element is not nonsense, where I agree that food and water is overkill (I men who wants to worry about food and water when there is a universe to concuer right?) but elements of extreme temperatures, toxicity etc. are not only more immersive, it also makes sense - no two planets are the same, they are different distances from the sun, have different composition, different atmosphere and so on. So haveing survival element dependant on enviroment is great. Haveing to eat a bowl of cereal before going to work in the mines is not fun at all.

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PK will depend on the lootability of killed players, because if you can't loot a player then it isn't worth it and if you can hunt helpless animals and harvest wild crops, its even more unlikly.

 

And instead of saying "i don't like it" and "it will destroy the gameplay" (and currently your arguments sound like this to me) you could come up with constructive ideas, how it could be implemented so that it works for you.

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And instead of saying "i don't like it" and "it will destroy the gameplay" (and currently your arguments sound like this to me) you could come up with constructive ideas, how it could be implemented so that it works for you.

 

now really? you were given several arguments exactly why food and water doesn't add anything valuable to the game and would rather decrease the playerbase, and you claim no one gave constructive critizism? Are you trying to troll the community? There was a logical answer to every argument that was given for a food mechanic, are you really going to ignore that and say that there weren't any? How should we take your posts serious if u behave like that?

 

And then you come with the reasoning that players want to loot something? What would you rather loot after killing a player and/or destroying his ship, ressources, components, blueprint files, weapons etc. or some cereals? As if food is anything that'd be desired by pirates.

 

For food to be something desireable, that people would kill for it, it has to be at least uncommon. If food is uncommon its even more so a reason to not include this mechanic, because then besides the need to always carry the food, you have to put in the effort to actually get it somehow. Thats just ridiculous.

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now really? you were given several arguments exactly why food and water doesn't add anything valuable to the game and would rather decrease the playerbase, and you claim no one gave constructive critizism? Are you trying to troll the community? There was a logical answer to every argument that was given for a food mechanic, are you really going to ignore that and say that there weren't any? How should we take your posts serious if u behave like that?

 

And then you come with the reasoning that players want to loot something? What would you rather loot after killing a player and/or destroying his ship, ressources, components, blueprint files, weapons etc. or some cereals? As if food is anything that'd be desired by pirates.

 

For food to be something desireable, that people would kill for it, it has to be at least uncommon. If food is uncommon its even more so a reason to not include this mechanic, because then besides the need to always carry the food, you have to put in the effort to actually get it somehow. Thats just ridiculous.

You know, you gave me some more ideas I suppose. Food would be a resource that is needed for survival, but the economic availability and possibility for a single person to grow it would be quite good. In that case, food is not something that needs to be worried over.... unless. If someone runs out of food(assuming they can't get any either), they might make a trade off for their survival to attack another person. This would probably be if they didn't have a Resurrection Node nearby as well.

 

See, the point of this is to give thoughts. While I can personally see food adding layers to the game, I can also imagine it being another step that you have to go through. For me as the leader of the DUA, I can have fun playing around with this mechanic and implementing it into my plans. However, individuals might find it another step of their routine. It might take those who join the game, play solo for a while and then join a faction down. Then again....

 

Dual Universe is supposed to be a game. However, it was never supposed to be a game that's easy to play. An example is the rumored time frame that a single person would take to get a ship that can escape orbit and achieve space travel. It was said that it would take over a year! Now, this is a rumor but if this was to be true, it would mean that players should either be willing to work for this or to join a group of players. 

 

As for weighted ammo, it's a good idea. I don't think it's a bad idea at all and, unlike food in some cases, it just adds to the game.

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