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An editor independent form the game


geri22geri

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There is a dev blog that explains their intentions for this. 

Here is a link it.

 

Scroll down till you see the part referring to protection planned for builders:

 

Virtual Simulator: enabling player to enter a virtual world (call it “inception syndrome”!). While in that virtual space, the player would be able to design any construct, in a completely peaceful setting. This would help builders to design their construct and create their blueprints safely, without being interrupted by any PvP action. For ships, it will also be possible to test their flight mode, without risking a crash or wasting resources!

 

I understand the desire for an out of game voxel creation tool that can import the blueprint into the game. 

However, it is equivalently asking for the devs to create a tool to keep you from ever entering the game. Keeping players on their servers while they create their content is also conductive to fair game-play for other players and the moderators alike. Think of it like everything created in the light of day is clean, fair, and equal.  

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I understand the desire for an out of game voxel creation tool that can import the blueprint into the game. 

However, it is equivalently asking for the devs to create a tool to keep you from ever entering the game. Keeping players on their servers while they create their content is also conductive to fair game-play for other players and the moderators alike. Think of it like everything created in the light of day is clean, fair, and equal.  

 

So don't allow uploading it to the actual game servers - think of it more as an early demo, possibly a kickstarter reward after contributing a certain amount. It could also e useful to lay the PR groundwork before the kickstarter, it would help make the game feel a lot more real for the space sandbox audience, and help disperse some of the vaporware claims. People will build things and dream of the moment they can fly it in-game, meanwhile word to mouth gets an early start and they can use some of the creations as showcase pieces to demonstrate some of what they can do.

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So don't allow uploading it to the actual game servers - think of it more as an early demo, possibly a kickstarter reward after contributing a certain amount. It could also e useful to lay the PR groundwork before the kickstarter, it would help make the game feel a lot more real for the space sandbox audience, and help disperse some of the vaporware claims. People will build things and dream of the moment they can fly it in-game, meanwhile word to mouth gets an early start and they can use some of the creations as showcase pieces to demonstrate some of what they can do.

MatzaJew was referring to the fact that, only allowing us to build in game removes a lot of legal risks. If it is hand made in a game, no worries. If one of your players imported a 3D model, then the owner of said model or copyright comes forward, the devs could be pulled into a lawsuit.

 

Vylqun Is on the right track!

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MatzaJew was referring to the fact that, only allowing us to build in game removes a lot of legal risks. If it is hand made in a game, no worries. If one of your players imported a 3D model, then the owner of said model or copyright comes forward, the devs could be pulled into a lawsuit.

 

Vylqun Is on the right track!

 

Except we already have precedent for that worldwide, game modders do it all the time, and the person liable for it is always the modder. NQ only become liable if they in some way publish the 3D model or include it in their product, which would be true if they allowed you to import your creation from the independent editor into the online environment.... Which is why I pointed out how an independent editor can still have value even if they don't allow it.

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The issue is that there is some progression in the game by building a ship in game with the available tools, if you allow outside meshes to be used this system is bypassed.

 

I work with 3D software (Cinema 4D mostly, some maya under my belt) and I can see the appeal. The issue is progression will be skipped, instead of people working from small to medium to large to capital ships, someone could just plunk down a death star...this would cause major imbalances in pvp and would essentially break the game.

 

Secondly. The game will have an in game market where the best designs (aesthetically and functionally) will sell, allowing for a mesh import would leave those who do not know 3D programs at a disadvantage. This would not be good for fair or balanced game play.

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So don't allow uploading it to the actual game servers - think of it more as an early demo, possibly a kickstarter reward after contributing a certain amount. It could also e useful to lay the PR groundwork before the kickstarter, it would help make the game feel a lot more real for the space sandbox audience, and help disperse some of the vaporware claims. People will build things and dream of the moment they can fly it in-game, meanwhile word to mouth gets an early start and they can use some of the creations as showcase pieces to demonstrate some of what they can do.

K, first let me clear something up

I think that this suggestion of yours comes from the right place. Giving us a preview sandbox would be great to play in. 

And Trihxeen mentioned the legal ramifications of using an exterior editor to import to the game. Now while this is 100% part of my explanation I'd also like to add some more between the lines action.

1. The realist answer. While not extreme in development requirement, working on a complete editor to give us in the mean time while they develop the game, is time not spent developing the game. We're talking about, albeit large for indie, AN INDIE game company. If this were blizzard for instance making the early stages of Hearthstone, I would totally believe it would be possible to see an early development stage prototype for us to test. In which case that's just a Alpha / Beta stage build that is released for public testing.   

2. Practicality. There are a few people out there who would value an early game editor but honestly, If I told my friends "hey you can Kinda play the game right now","Your stuck in a room and all you can do is create voxel objects", "oh and anything you do in there is 100% just going to be a waste of time beyond just getting used to building with voxels". But hey it's early access. Almost all of em would just say its' 'OK' and they will wait till they can play open beta. Better to play a game they can experience the other 90% of what they intend the game to be than just a voxel editor. That and if they do play with it .. it would just be for maybe an hour at most.

3. Now on to the sociology effect. Like in the practicality answer, we human beings can be odd creatures. Give us a small taste of a good thing and we may want more. Some of us would get excited and wait for more, and others would feel sated in what they got and not even bother with the full product. The dev's wouldn't want to risk giving us a basic demo for fear of that issue. Yeah "You" may still buy the game but maybe I wouldn't (I still would =P) or maybe all my friends would get a bad impression and not get the game. Leaving me to play alone. Events like this can happen to over a potential million gamers, each with all their own unique situations. 

4. Legally speaking it is true that taking any assets from your own computer and transferring it to their servers, which in the eye's of the world is a business / consumer product, can have intellectual property rights issues. [space Engineers] workshop mods have this disclaimer, through Steam, to them to prevent the developer 'KSH' from being affected since mods are not something that is shipping with the release version of the game. VQ has stated that the game environment the player will be connected to is that of host client system. Meaning that your client is more or less just a portal to your character in-game that is creating the assets. That and the literal voxels are being created in the game, hosted on their server, owned by them, in their office building. To add conjecture to saying that perhaps make it to where the "demo" you receive never will be able to import the file to their server does solve the issue of them being legally liable for IP rights solves 1/2 the problem.

Adobe makes photo shop for instance, and they have a TON of legal coverage to prevent things created in the "Tool" they provided to you, prevents them from being legally liable for IP rights violations. It's kinda dumb actually to be able to be sued for that but it was a thing for a time years ago and a legal precedent to protect Adobe just didn't exist until then.

 

Final Verdict and Short version to all the Above:

For the Dev's to bother spending the development time making a demo product to reach such a smaller audience, inside of what currently exists as interest for the game, that could be very detrimental to the entirety of the full game, and could completely cripple them legally if they didn't invest in the time/money/coverage to protect themselves, is a VERY BAD IDEA.

On top of that I believe having a earliest outside of game ability to create whatever you wanted would give you an unfair advantage of me.... so   ... xP

 

I promise I'm not posting here to step on toes, I'm enjoying the topic actually, it's making me use my brain for once beyond my normal cave man work peon / wage slave speak. =D

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  • 1 month later...

You will be able to sell your blueprints on a ingame market or simply give it to your friends.

And a editor as you have described it will be integrated as some sort of virtual reality that you can enter in game.

The more I learn about the game the more I become uncertain about it.  Having a creative mode for builders to build their creations and transfer them into the game is what keeps voxel base games running.  The truth is there are tons of multiplayer and survival games . This game is coming into a world of competition  with tons of other voxel games old and new. The more I learn about DU the more I wonder do the devs understand their player base.

 I think it's important that a game like this keep builders happy and give them their own world while giving them the ability to use their creations in game.  

 

For example a game like Empyrion  allows builders to go  in to creative mode then save their creations to blueprint.  Then if they can gather enough resources in survival mode to  produce their ships in the factory  then they can build their ship in regular game mode.  Space Engineers has a similar process.  Voxel base players are not like the  Survival players that jump from game to game. The voxel base crowd need creative freedom and they are loyal if you treat them right. Just look at minecraft?  Some of those guys have been playing that game for years.  Having happy builders are soo important to games like this, it's the backbone of games like this.   If nobody is motivated to create cool stuff then that takes a lot away from a game like this.

 I know this game is just in it's idea stage but some of these ideas sounds like they are trying take Space Engineer or Minecaft fans and force them to play the same way as MMO players or your standard survival game like Ark.  That will never work because MMO fans and Voxel base fans are two different types of players that plays games like this differently.    It will never work that way.  In order for a game like this to work you have to cater to both and right now it seems like MMO fans are more important .  Planet Nomad which is another voxel base survival game that comes out next year as well has an editor. I'm trying to understand what DU devs are trying to create but right now it seems like a game for MMO players that never played a voxel base game in their life.  

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The more I learn about the game the more I become uncertain about it.  Having a creative mode for builders to build their creations and transfer them into the game is what keeps voxel base games running.  The truth is there are tons of multiplayer and survival games . This game is coming into a world of competition  with tons of other voxel games old and new. The more I learn about DU the more I wonder do the devs understand their player base.

 I think it's important that a game like this keep builders happy and give them their own world while giving them the ability to use their creations in game.  

 

For example a game like Empyrion  allows builders to go  in to creative mode then save their creations to blueprint.  Then if they can gather enough resources in survival mode to  produce their ships in the factory  then they can build their ship in regular game mode.  Space Engineers has a similar process.  Voxel base players are not like the  Survival players that jump from game to game. The voxel base crowd need creative freedom and they are loyal if you treat them right. Just look at minecraft?  Some of those guys have been playing that game for years.  Having happy builders are soo important to games like this, it's the backbone of games like this.   If nobody is motivated to create cool stuff then that takes a lot away from a game like this.

 I know this game is just in it's idea stage but some of these ideas sounds like they are trying take Space Engineer or Minecaft fans and force them to play the same way as MMO players or your standard survival game like Ark.  That will never work because MMO fans and Voxel base fans are two different types of players that plays games like this differently.    It will never work that way.  In order for a game like this to work you have to cater to both and right now it seems like MMO fans are more important .  Planet Nomad which is another voxel base survival game that comes out next year as well has an editor. I'm trying to understand what DU devs are trying to create but right now it seems like a game for MMO players that never played a voxel base game in their life.  

 

As i already said there will be some sort of "virtual reality" in game that you can use as creative mode, but you don't have the full game world in there, as far as i understand it will be a simple simulator and really a "single player" mode which means you're unable to design something with others.

 

Please stop to see DU only as voxel based, yes it is that what makes the physical game world, but its certainly not all and builders are not the only players that will be in the game.

The game has basically 3 types of players

The PvE Players, which are the builders and miners for example and they will need protection

The PvP Players, which are the guys that will protect and/or attack each other and the PvE players out of various reasons

The Administrators, players that will provide structures for others so that everything will work out

 

So what you're suggesting is simply game breaking because it takes away the need for protection, which the builders should have.

If the builders don't need protection, they won't hire PvP players or join a faction, because thy don't need to do it and evil PvP players also can't touch them, that is a death sentence for factions and PvP gameplay.

 

Congratulations you just took away the uniqueness of DU and created another generic voxel sandbox game *applauds*

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Wow, from simple suggestion, which was sort of answered right away to just picking on each other's words. Please do not let the community de-evolve in just one page.

 

I am very much interested in the topic, simply because building can be such a labor intensive thing for many. Working the kinks out of a ship can be quite time consuming, ask anyone working on their first few Kerbal death traps in "that" game while they have never played said type of game. I take it the learning curve in this game will not be as steep as that, but nevertheless having some virtual environment or a safe hangar where to take your first baby steps might be nice.

Integrating such feature into the game itself would be best, I agree having a secondary external tool would cause trouble, so a "build zone" is, in my.mind at least, not an unreasonable request.

 

And the following sir is my main concern, is there any sort of feature in game that will allow say a complete freshman to "space builder's online" to learn what he will need to before he gets subjected to unknown amounts of griefing.

 

Kind regards

racerexia

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Wow, from simple suggestion, which was sort of answered right away to just picking on each other's words. Please do not let the community de-evolve in just one page.

 

I am very much interested in the topic, simply because building can be such a labor intensive thing for many. Working the kinks out of a ship can be quite time consuming, ask anyone working on their first few Kerbal death traps in "that" game while they have never played said type of game. I take it the learning curve in this game will not be as steep as that, but nevertheless having some virtual environment or a safe hangar where to take your first baby steps might be nice.

Integrating such feature into the game itself would be best, I agree having a secondary external tool would cause trouble, so a "build zone" is, in my.mind at least, not an unreasonable request.

 

And the following sir is my main concern, is there any sort of feature in game that will allow say a complete freshman to "space builder's online" to learn what he will need to before he gets subjected to unknown amounts of griefing.

 

Kind regards

racerexia

Yes, the above post from yours pretty much explains it. They intend for a "Virtual Reality" where you build things without anyone's interference.  Also, same idea can be tied to a Tutorial section in the game.

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This has been brought up a few times please check these post for more info.

 

Single Player Creative Mode

 

Single Player (Option to create MODs)

 

Single Player? I suggest we use this one for all further post as it is the oldest.

Nice Khaymann, I admire such awareness. Great search skills.

 

Especially third link is interesting, there is an answer right from the source.

 

I'd like to know predicted avarge data usage of typical hour gameplay. Another good question, is creative VR gonna be projected by server or local machine. As I've mentioned in other thread - first link, low bandwidth usage is crucial for me. Yea... They mentioned about innovative netcode... But I guess it won't matter. Microsoft with their latest product doesn't care about people who actually have to pay great sums of heavily earned money for every gigabyte, forcing users to massive constant downloads. Sorry, I know, it's not MS grief corner :-P.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I second this, but I can see many issues such as the balance of in-game play. Designing off-line and then essentially pre-fabbing into the game might be considered somewhat unfair to everyone else. I would certainly have a problem if a player went to a new planet where no one was and suddenly in a couple of minutes there is an entire major city essentially claiming the planet for that individual.

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