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Important point, thats is being ignored here is that release is only small part of the game. Most of the playtime will be in established world, where all of the discoveries have already been made. Research should be designed also for such people.

 

Pseudo-physics engine, that will make differently crafted items different based on input, may sound wonderful but has big set of problems. Thousands upon thousands of players will be playing this game. No matter how obscure mechanic is, it will be decoded. And even if not, statisticly optimal cases will be found. Such and only such recipes will be used for crafting afterwards, making whole system pretty much nonexistant.

 

System that I have in mind is vaguely based on one in EVE, with "blueprint originals" that can only be copied into one-time "blueprint copies". Industry players will either do research themselves, or buy copies from market. Another possible feature is having some parameters in blueprint, that can be modified when creating a copy, boosting one parameter at cost of another. Such feature will make it so market has popular blueprints, but if you want specific different one-time version, you will have  to talk to researcher.

 

Now on the topic of getting blueprint originals. Thematically, researcher job is just between manufacturer and explorer. Both have reason to be reasearchers: manufacturers to make items, and explorers are digging around in valuable stuff, reaserch should also suit them. One way (maybe boring, but at least working) of doing research is virtually same as manufacture with timer. Such way would involve puting different, maybe extreme, requirements for manufacturing system, with unusual input, that will yield original blueprint of an item at the next step of tech tree. For explorers system can be similar, with special laboratories that can be constructed on dig sites, that will provide BPO with far more ease, but require such  one-time site. 

 

Now unto how to make such system more fun. I propose integrating normal manufacture proggression, as well as explorer progression there, and then doing some semi-randomisation of tech tree for each player. For example, player John who is progressing through manufacture doesnt know which metal, A, B or C will be avaiable for him next, but every one of them opens different construction(and reserach) possibilities with different requirements. After John has mastered metal B, he has to reassess all his knowledge of how to put B to best use. All 3 of metals were expensive to research, and gave him different sizable benifits. Next time it may be A, C, or D, for example.

Explorers could use similar system, with semirandom perks giving bonus to certain exploration. When Sarah was exploring ancient ruins, she had no idea if her next destination would be desert planet, or some abandoned station, or Jungle full of life.

 

Important thing here is when another player goes through progression, semi-random tree will give him different experience. While players guides would still be spoilerish, they would not hurt as much, and players who havent read them won't be at such a disadvantage.

Another important thing is to make sure RNG is not hindering player progression. 2 players would take the same(more or less) time and effort to research everything(looong time), and RNG would only influence path somewhat. It would not screw one player with no discoveries, while other gets it on the first try, and neither will it keep very important early tech from player. If there is specific tech player wants, he should be prepared to go through a number of randoms, but

1) this number is strictly capped

2) this number is nowhere close to total tech count

 

This may not always apply to "end-game" tech. Some could be restrictively rare, and getting one may define corporation future for a long time. Another may require esoteric laboratory to be researched, which may require efforts of dozens of people. However such things should be 'bonus' and not mandatory, so they not hurt John experience of being private researcher.

 

Cheers!

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Important point, thats is being ignored here is that release is only small part of the game. Most of the playtime will be in established world, where all of the discoveries have already been made. Research should be designed also for such people.

 

Pseudo-physics engine, that will make differently crafted items different based on input, may sound wonderful but has big set of problems. Thousands upon thousands of players will be playing this game. No matter how obscure mechanic is, it will be decoded. And even if not, statisticly optimal cases will be found. Such and only such recipes will be used for crafting afterwards, making whole system pretty much nonexistant.

 

System that I have in mind is vaguely based on one in EVE, with "blueprint originals" that can only be copied into one-time "blueprint copies". Industry players will either do research themselves, or buy copies from market. Another possible feature is having some parameters in blueprint, that can be modified when creating a copy, boosting one parameter at cost of another. Such feature will make it so market has popular blueprints, but if you want specific different one-time version, you will have  to talk to researcher.

 

Now on the topic of getting blueprint originals. Thematically, researcher job is just between manufacturer and explorer. Both have reason to be reasearchers: manufacturers to make items, and explorers are digging around in valuable stuff, reaserch should also suit them. One way (maybe boring, but at least working) of doing research is virtually same as manufacture with timer. Such way would involve puting different, maybe extreme, requirements for manufacturing system, with unusual input, that will yield original blueprint of an item at the next step of tech tree. For explorers system can be similar, with special laboratories that can be constructed on dig sites, that will provide BPO with far more ease, but require such  one-time site. 

 

Now unto how to make such system more fun. I propose integrating normal manufacture proggression, as well as explorer progression there, and then doing some semi-randomisation of tech tree for each player. For example, player John who is progressing through manufacture doesnt know which metal, A, B or C will be avaiable for him next, but every one of them opens different construction(and reserach) possibilities with different requirements. After John has mastered metal B, he has to reassess all his knowledge of how to put B to best use. All 3 of metals were expensive to research, and gave him different sizable benifits. Next time it may be A, C, or D, for example.

Explorers could use similar system, with semirandom perks giving bonus to certain exploration. When Sarah was exploring ancient ruins, she had no idea if her next destination would be desert planet, or some abandoned station, or Jungle full of life.

 

Important thing here is when another player goes through progression, semi-random tree will give him different experience. While players guides would still be spoilerish, they would not hurt as much, and players who havent read them won't be at such a disadvantage.

Another important thing is to make sure RNG is not hindering player progression. 2 players would take the same(more or less) time and effort to research everything(looong time), and RNG would only influence path somewhat. It would not screw one player with no discoveries, while other gets it on the first try, and neither will it keep very important early tech from player. If there is specific tech player wants, he should be prepared to go through a number of randoms, but

1) this number is strictly capped

2) this number is nowhere close to total tech count

 

This may not always apply to "end-game" tech. Some could be restrictively rare, and getting one may define corporation future for a long time. Another may require esoteric laboratory to be researched, which may require efforts of dozens of people. However such things should be 'bonus' and not mandatory, so they not hurt John experience of being private researcher.

 

Cheers!

They also said that if a tech tree is being made more and more coomon-place it will become a baseline skill. 

 

 

Let's say 87% of the playerbase is speccing into one tech type. That tech typel in the tech tree is now considered manatory, so NovaQuark makes it common-lace to make room for more flexible gameplay, rather than forcing EACH player to get that tech. It's a good idea on their part.

 

 

It's like WoW Vanilla and The Burning Crusade.

 

Rogues had to take Improved Sap and Improved Stealth to be able to do anything in PvE and PvP. Blizzard made those two talents commonplace afterwars

 

Same with Shamans. In Vanilla you had to spent 11 points in the Melee talent tree to get the ability to use 2-handed weapons, then in TBC they made it a common-place thing.

 

It's a really good idea for the game. But the devs need to updating the common pool of skills often enough to be relvevant but not often enough for each player character to reach the point of being a PhD in nuclear physics kind of character.

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hybrid between time, resource grind and civilization unlock  (...) Variety is the opposite of boringness.

 

A variety of things which are all boring still results in overall boredom.

 

Everything that is just about waiting for / unklocking / altering statistics for the sake of statistics is boring as hell.

 

Make a game that has a variety of interesting game mechanics - things that are interesting to do for the players (and even gathering ressources can be made interesting rather than a boring grind) - to chose from, and people will pick what they like most. Or a little bit of everything.

 

A big goal should be reached by DOING the things that are logical necessities for these achievments. Like: You would like to have a battle mech. So you can either build it on your own, which requires certain components which require certain production facilities which require ressources from different planets which requires (at least a basic) a space ship. Or if this logical path is not to your taste, you can specialise on something you like which earns you enough money to one day afford a battle mech built by someone else.

 

This is all possible without spending time watching timer bars or manipulating spread sheets.

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Important point, thats is being ignored here is that release is only small part of the game. Most of the playtime will be in established world, where all of the discoveries have already been made. Research should be designed also for such people.

 

Pseudo-physics engine, that will make differently crafted items different based on input, may sound wonderful but has big set of problems. Thousands upon thousands of players will be playing this game. No matter how obscure mechanic is, it will be decoded. And even if not, statisticly optimal cases will be found. Such and only such recipes will be used for crafting afterwards, making whole system pretty much nonexistant.

 

Even in an established world I think there will still be new ways to do things.

 

Ok say someone has figured out the best thrust-weight ratio for a fighter engine. If the crafting system is built correctly the best alloys and parts will require rarer resources, which will by necessity jack up the price for that engine.

 

A player organisation could work out how to build an engine that is almost as good, but uses less of a hard to get resource. That way their product can undercut the market leader among the more budget conscious clients.

 

Others could make an engine built purely for straight line speed, or one that is more fuel efficient. And behind all that the resource market could change what engines are 'best' for your money just based on how expensive it becomes to craft certain alloys.

Also changing faction fleet tactics will alter demand in different areas and force innovation in ship design to keep up.

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Well, as I mentioned many times, I'm not here for the spaceship thingy or the building. I'm here for the ground combat  with possibly mechas being viable options for ground warfare. Perhaps Mechas will be having access to the same arsenal as ground vehicles, which requires me to specialise with operating ground vehicles. And I'm fine with that ^_^ . Nothing gets me hyped more than the idea of operating a mecha with two other guys, one being the driver, the other being the engineer's watch and me being the gunner. Each one of us specialised on a different task for combat and we three came together to operate a giant murder machine :P

Sounds good to me. I'll keep her pointed at the enemy, you light em up!

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Never underestimate the speed of player progression (wow players hitting level cap within 24 hours of a new expansion, etc)

 

Reverse engineering could be another component of this. I could buy Super-Dutrilithim scooter wheels from the market, and instead of using them I'll take them apart and try and learn how to make them myself (be it an eve like skill, blue print, or player knowledge).

 

Wikis are also a thing, so trying to hide mechanics behind obfuscation wont work well either.  I like Thoger's train of thought. Make infrastructure the limiting factor -- so much so that the first breakthrough into the next big tech level (such as space flight) can't be be done solo or by just one player organization, but by many many groups and individuals. Politics will naturally slow down progression to a better future :D

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Unlocking through research time is one of them but it's not sure it will be the one being kept in the end.

Here are the pros & cons: 

- easiest and fastest way to implement research.

- safe process to prevent automatically that all the tech are unlocked from day 1 or even from week 1.

- on the other hand, it's probably not the funniest way to play it.  

 

Dear god please no! It was kinda a cool concept when I first started playing eve but after years it got really really old fast.

 

Among others solution, we have: 

- RNG mechanics but relying on luck for research can be very frustrating as well.

 

The RNG gods hate me so please no lol

 

- Grinding significant amount of specific resources (supposed to be used for experiments to make a technological breakthrough) but this might not appear fun either to many players.

 

This might be cool if it is not massive amounts of items (just the amount of raw materials to make the item plus 10% or something like that) and mixed with another system such as a little trial and error

 

- Through "trials & errors" experimentation might be a problem as Alpha & Beta testers will get a huge advantage compared to new comers (and the risk that having a frenzy of technology breakthrough in the first days following official release). Moreover, there will be already "trials & errors" to design LUA scripts and test spaceship "flyability". So it might be too much to put several layers of "trials & errors". It can be discouraging for many players.

 

Again on its own not the best but mixed with another type might work

 

- Civilization-wide unlock: when a certain amount of player characters have learn a specific skillset in the game, then a technological breakthrough happens and a new tech is unlocked. This idea is interesting but it generates some risks: "what if this number of player characters learning this skill is not reached? what if it takes 3x or 4x the time the dev team expected?" 

 

This one I'm kinda torn on, it takes away from the new user experience a little so maybe an optional thing but not sure how viable this would be ( I'm one of those guys that likes to figure things out for them selfs). As for the issue with taking too long make it population percentage base and maybe make the percent adjustable so if it is taking too long you can adjust it down or it to quick adjust it up

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Unlocking through research time is one of them but it's not sure it will be the one being kept in the end.
Here are the pros & cons: 
- easiest and fastest way to implement research.
- safe process to prevent automatically that all the tech are unlocked from day 1 or even from week 1.
- on the other hand, it's probably not the funniest way to play it.  
 
Dear god please no! It was kinda a cool concept when I first started playing eve but after years it got really really old fast.
 
Among others solution, we have: 
- RNG mechanics but relying on luck for research can be very frustrating as well.
 
The RNG gods hate me so please no lol
 
- Grinding significant amount of specific resources (supposed to be used for experiments to make a technological breakthrough) but this might not appear fun either to many players.
 
This might be cool if it is not massive amounts of items (just the amount of raw materials to make the item plus 10% or something like that) and mixed with another system such as a little trial and error
 
- Through "trials & errors" experimentation might be a problem as Alpha & Beta testers will get a huge advantage compared to new comers (and the risk that having a frenzy of technology breakthrough in the first days following official release). Moreover, there will be already "trials & errors" to design LUA scripts and test spaceship "flyability". So it might be too much to put several layers of "trials & errors". It can be discouraging for many players.
 
Again on its own not the best but mixed with another type might work
 
- Civilization-wide unlock: when a certain amount of player characters have learn a specific skillset in the game, then a technological breakthrough happens and a new tech is unlocked. This idea is interesting but it generates some risks: "what if this number of player characters learning this skill is not reached? what if it takes 3x or 4x the time the dev team expected?" 
 
This one I'm kinda torn on, it takes away from the new user experience a little so maybe an optional thing but not sure how viable this would be ( I'm one of those guys that likes to figure things out for them selfs). As for the issue with taking too long make it population percentage base and maybe make the percent adjustable so if it is taking too long you can adjust it down or it to quick adjust it up

 

Would you prefer arbitrary gearscores and a level cap with an expansion rolling every other year to keep the meta-game interesting? And they said they consider a tech tree skill that people mostly find mandatory to be implemented in the game, like in WoW on the first expansion they made most of the mandatory skills every player took on the talent tree to be made baseline. It's ingenious.

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I was always partial to how the original SWG did crafting. Starting with resources for the crafts; meaning different resources had different quality. Though in DU, the resources are being procedural generated, finite, and not re-spawning/relocating over time. Perhaps having different concentrations of specific elements in the resource being mined, and then placing the focus being more on the refinement (character refining skill level, quality of refiner, concentration of elements) which determines its overall end quality. Higher quality elements could then be used and experimented on during a specific tech's research to try and unlock it. Having higher researching skills, access to better materials would ultimate lead to better quality tech, allow for better quality crafts! Maybe just a pipe-dream, but I really prefer the idea of having to work for the tech knowledge rather than just waiting for a timer to finish. I'm just thinking resources will be king in this game, so why not tie that into everything else and make gathering, refining, designing, and experimenting the time sink, rather than a literal clock. 

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Actually i like the idea, that there could be som blue prints to be found by exploration. Maybe seeing an old technology lying around. Analysing it may bring you a blueprint to use on your own.

 

This could varry from a handle of a gun with certain stats to so big stuff like star gate technology.

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The problem with research rate seems to be that NQ want to introduce new tech in stages. The only way to ensure that is to make the research process controllable (i.e. predictable) from a developer viewpoint. 

 

If research is done in a clever or "interesting" way, it opens up the possibility that some players may be able to discover new tech before NQ wants it to be discovered (i.e. stargates get discovered in week 4 after launch). Once 20 thousand players start working on a puzzle or minigame, there's no way of controlling the outcome unless there's hard caps in place.

 

One way to keep control of the rate of discovery would be to only allow research of new tech levels after a certain time has passed. Perhaps the list of available research projects can simply be limited, with new projects being released over time. The research mechanics themselves can then be a fun and interesting process, without risking too much progress too soon.

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21 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

The problem with research rate seems to be that NQ want to introduce new tech in stages. The only way to ensure that is to make the research process controllable (i.e. predictable) from a developer viewpoint. 

 

If research is done in a clever or "interesting" way, it opens up the possibility that some players may be able to discover new tech before NQ wants it to be discovered (i.e. stargates get discovered in week 4 after launch). Once 20 thousand players start working on a puzzle or minigame, there's no way of controlling the outcome unless there's hard caps in place.

 

One way to keep control of the rate of discovery would be to only allow research of new tech levels after a certain time has passed. Perhaps the list of available research projects can simply be limited, with new projects being released over time. The research mechanics themselves can then be a fun and interesting process, without risking too much progress too soon.

Well, that is what you can expect.
The game is planned to be massive, if they add everything at the start is it more likely to be a slightly broken mess.
By adding it in slow intervals can they build each aspect up with much more detail and efficency. 

Besides, think on that 4th week, when people finally are unleashed on the solar system xD. IT will be such glorious chaos. xD

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