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Q&A Compilation Thread

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And how would you abuse the system, tell me? And no i cant see where you're going with this :)

 

I think we just have to agree to disagree

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. :)

 

But in the speeding ticket example, such a system will need value inputs.

I as the law decide those values. I decide the speed limit and I decide the fine.

What is there to stop me from adjusting the numbers so that everyone gets flagged as breaking the law? And to add ontop of that I set the fine amount to something so high that it is robbery.

 

So you see how that would be abused by people? A bit like it happens often in real life.

 

And even if you have to manually fine people there is still nothing to prevent robbery.

 

I am not saying that there shouldnt be some finesse to the tools to enforce the laws of your territory. But what we are discussing is not the solution.

 

And I think at this point in time I'm afraid that the only solution is to ignore or kill the criminal.

 

Of course you can enforce no fly zones and such with turrets. But again that is a violent solution. I do understand your request. :)

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Completely agree with twerk there.

 

And to adress that "tools provided" mantra:

 

So they pull me over. So? They fine me. So? Idgaf. What will they do? Negotiating with me or killing me - cause I won't follow them. So a prison would be neat when I die. Cause they can't do ANYTHING else to me.

 

If there would be an automatic system to, let's say, give them money, I could abuse that. I just write a script and everyone who enters my territory has to pay a fine, because it's my ground. 100bucks per step. They enter, realise it or not, they auto-pay me and leave.

 

Players should police that area and players should be able to be put into prisons - they are free to go when a fine is paid or they just kill themselves and go to the arkship. I would just love good prisons with mazes and traps - that would be hilarious to escape from

I'm kinda on board with the prison idea it just needs to be done right, and for the "make a script part"..the devs could just make it so only large orgs could do it and several people were involved with setting these fines not just one person (just like real life) if you own some land far far out in the forrest and someone enters that lands you can either talk to them about leaving or you could just shoot them..in places like cities there are laws set by governments in this case scripts, anyways we will just go back and forth at this point, i want to see a system like this one day where we can have diffrent laws in diffrent areas..and sure most of it should be done by hand by players..but yea putting a tax on an area doesnt sound that bad to me...you can mine in my mine but i take 30% :P

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Yes the best system would be if player would have to enforce rules/laws but again, we need those tools to be built by the devs. Lets say a player police pulls you over in a city because you went over the speed limit or hunted you down because you stole something from a market or whatever..when the catch you they need tools that allows them to punish you according to the laws set by the player government in that area and it just doesnt end in a gun fight, i want more.

Completely agree, it was what I had in mind, players should have restrictions to avoid havoc, and moderators should supervise the all thing.

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Yea I get that but in the speeding ticket example how would that work out?

 

An officer goes to a person and fines him?

The game automatically deducts the fee from his inventory? Surely you can see where I am going with this. Its very hard for people to agree on what is just and fair. And sadly many people would abuse such a mechanic.

 

I'm not sure if we are there yet for an intelligent system. The RDMS is already pretty advanced compared to other games.

Perhaps you need to think on it for a while and create a thread on your idea/topic. ;)

Actually, yes, the more freedom to create a world comparable to reality, the more it's a mess.

But again, if some system is abusive, 'good players' will fight for the cause (as the devs said previously for the possibly entirely enclosed private planets).

If a policeman arrests someone, the guy needs to pay something, even if he is a foreigner. If he has a debt, it will be known by his org that will submit the fine to him, and repay to the other org the debt, to avoid conflict. It's still an economics and politics issue after all.

Then, a corrupted police can be unveiled, anyone can investigate if something feels odd.

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I'm not sure if these have been asked before. This thread's a bit of a mess; it's hard to tell which posts are actual questions and there are a lot of people posting 'answers' without really knowing the answers (demonstrable just by contrasting the official answer threads to replies within this one).

 

Regardless, I'd like to know a bit more about the networking model you have designed. I have concerns about the feasibility on larger scales, with many interlocking constructs and frames of reference and with clients connecting from various places on the globe in real life, and so on.

 

What we know:

 

  • You dynamically subdivide the world into cubes (presumably some global frame of reference) and sub-cubes and so on, allocating any cube with players within it to one server each, based on player density (possibly based on a max number of players per fragment or "cell" as I believe you call them).

 

  • Each cell corresponds to some physical resources: CPU cycles, memory, whatever. Could be VMs, could be physical servers, not quite clear.

 

  • Messages from cells further away (measurement method not well defined -- can't be bare euclidean distance as player density has to play a role too) are less frequent, and (I think I read this somewhere) can be more delayed as well (maybe you meant it has to wait longer for enough points to interpolate between).

 

What I'd like to know:

 

  • How are these clusters of computational units corresponding to cells distributed physically and logically? How does it scale?

 

  • How do messages propagate between cells? Do you have n*n connections for n cells, or do you have some sort of graph topology for routing messages between the cells?

 

  • If you have full connectivity (n^2 connections), and your servers are distributed globally, is network congestion a concern? Obviously you'll have some way of caching etc. to not send redundant information over the internet, but still, I'd like to know more about how my cell actually gets the information about another client's position who may not be on the same physical server as me.

 

  • How do you allocate cells to clients connected from all over the world, if they're proximal within the game? I'd guess you'll try to select cells that are physically clustered together (i.e. one physical datacenter/rack/server), and probably select its location between the clients' locations in a minimal square sum sort of way? What sorts of tradeoffs/overhead would this result in? How confident are you in your netcode scaling outside just your LAN environment (which I'm assuming you're developing in now)?

 

  • With constructs like ships (and I guess planets, too, but planets are a trivial case and problems seem to arise with ships in particular), what cell is responsible for serving it, simulating its position, keeping track of the state of the voxels, Hermite matrices (or however that works, I haven't finished reading the siggraph paper) and so on? How do cells get allocated there? Mainly in the case of constructs whose bounding boxes overlap (a ship in a hangar of a larger ship, for instance)? I guess it's not an issue if the engine that allocates cells to players is construct-agnostic, as in it just does it based on some global, spatial coordinates? Intuitively I thought this might be a problem at first but now I can't remember what I thought it would be... anyways, moving on.

 

  • How does hand-off between cells work? Is it as simple as... well, let's say we have a dense circle of players like in your demo, and space gets divided into a 5x5x5 lattice, of which the bottom fifth has players, of which only maybe 16 cubes have players, and those cubes get assigned cells and the players in said cubes get assigned to the corresponding cells. If a player walks out of bounds of this cube/cell, does another cell just simply take over? What if there's nobody else in that direction for miles? Does this client just get the lowest order subdivision of space (largest cube corresponding to the space he just crossed into) to himself? Is there any sort of overhead/delay associated with this?

 

I just want to gauge the technical feasibility of the project and whether it's a good idea to back this or if it's another SC/NMS-esque pipe dream.

 

As a gamer who mostly does FPS, I have another technical question as well (warning, a bit ranty):

 

  • Can you explain in more detail, based on the answers to the above questions and whatever else is required in terms of exposition, why an FPS character vs. character combat system is technically infeasible? Presumably, you're worried about the interpolation drowning out fine movements in crowded situations, as well as delay -- both resulting in "unfair" gameplay. How does is a lock-on system with tactical elements (I assume taking cover is still a thing) differ? Regardless of the damage/combat model, simultaneity and fidelity aren't going to be preserved between changes in frame of reference / point of view. How do you reconcile that with a lock-on system? Do you just take one client's local cell's point of view as law, and determine hits based on that? If so, the same problem still exists, your shooter will see a guy running towards a house, lock and fire a skill/projectile/magic/whatever, and think they've hit, and yet the target from the point of view of the cell that matters is already in cover, and the shooter actually misses. Of course you can add lag compensation, but you could do that for FPS as well. What about a target ducking in and out of cover, in perfect synchronization with the sampling frequency? Their cell only sends updates from when they're out of cover, so instead of seeming like they're in cover 50% of the time, the shooter just sees them standing perfectly still next to a piece of cover. Regardless of your planned implementation, are you sure some FPS system wouldn't be possible? Maybe a compromise of some kind? Like how well you can aim at your local cell's holographic version of the remote client somehow weights RNG in your favor? Anything? Having a spaceship combat system for wielding a rifle would just completely ruin immersion for me, personally. How would that even work in first person perspective?

 

 

P.S. Apologies for the wall of text, that got a bit out of hand.

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if i can be locked up and unable to play im opting out of the kickstarter now thats just retarded

Hey, NQ has not said that prisons are a thing. This is just an idea from some of the community members.

 

:)

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Hey, NQ has not said that prisons are a thing. This is just an idea from some of the community members.

 

:)

I see I have great influence lmao. No please don't go x) it was just an idea. Actually I thought you could be locked up if (you did something wrong and) some GM would agree with that, at the same time population could judge you. But yeah, jurisdiction is quite hard to hone for a game, particularly for MMOs for they are community games, and for that particular one would be mainly community-orientated.

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@LurkNautili

 

Okay I understand all the technological aspects of the game (build and servers) are not well documented. I hope NQ will answer all those questions next time, for there all are very relevant. For the build and how it works with voxel, I could neither tell you, I don't know about Unigine, but you might want to try and know more about how it works, but it will surely not full-fill all the interrogations of yours. May you redirect Nyzaltar to your post by message for him to see with NQ what they think they can deliver us as informations. Mainly, the cluster isn't understood or heard by all community members, it's still new and I don't know either how exactly it works, I'd like to know deeper the same.

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As it is, voxel damage will not occur from collisions, but what about character damage? If I hit John Doe at 100km/hr with a land speeder, will it kill him?

You're right, I don't think player's life system ever has been discussed on previously. +1

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@LurkNautili

 

Okay I understand all the technological aspects of the game (build and servers) are not well documented. I hope NQ will answer all those questions next time, for there all are very relevant. For the build and how it works with voxel, I could neither tell you, I don't know about Unigine, but you might want to try and know more about how it works, but it will surely not full-fill all the interrogations of yours. May you redirect Nyzaltar to your post by message for him to see with NQ what they think they can deliver us as informations. Mainly, the cluster isn't understood or heard by all community members, it's still new and I don't know either how exactly it works, I'd like to know deeper the same.

 

Well, since this is the Q&A thread, I assume they're just as likely to see my questions here as they would if I PM'd them... probably.

 

In the mean time you may be interested in this other thread we have going on where there's someone reasonably well versed in these sorts of things leading some speculative inquiry into what they might be doing behind the scenes. It's quite interesting.

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I am not sure if the has been asked yet, I could not find anything easily in the forum search.

 

From starting the game, how long would it take to build a basic space worth vessel? will it take many many hours, weeks, to build a small one person craft to go out and leave the planet?

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Another question which i really need the answer to. the difference between the two gold pledges. one you get more dacs. the other you get an arkship id card. is there any way to tell before actually buying? really curious if it's worth it or not....

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Another question which i really need the answer to. the difference between the two gold pledges. one you get more dacs. the other you get an arkship id card. is there any way to tell before actually buying? really curious if it's worth it or not....

An arkship ID card is a physical item to collect. It also enables you to reserve a name for 1 character. Said name will be printed on the card.

 

The physical gold package has the physical ark ID card.

 

The digital does not.

That is the difference.

Does this answer your question?

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Dual Universe. What was the inspiration for the name?

It comes from the mathematical concept of duality.

 

And the game is intended to be a seperate reality from our normal day to day life.

Thats why they choose the name Dual Universe. ;)

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It comes from the mathematical concept of duality.

 

And the game is intended to be a seperate reality from our normal day to day life.

Thats why they choose the name Dual Universe. ;)

Sow neat.

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