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ATMLVE

Don't Make a 'Best Version' of Anything

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This is something common in regular multiplayer games but I feel in a game with crafting, it can become somewhat of an issue. What I'm suggesting is to not make a 'best version' of anything. What I mean is, since most items will be craftable, don't make there be that one greatest version that everyone aspires for. A standard model for crafting games is starting with the lowest tier, with each upgrade above that increasing all of it's stats, to the point where at some point you get the ultimate form of that item.

 

You hear it all the times in games; people say they have "max everything". Whether it be full diamond armor and tool set, a 48 slot ship, or the 'black hole gun', they go for it as an end goal and once they reach it, they have nothing left to do.

 

I think it is important for a game like this to avoid that, and to do so I suggest everything has at least two different stats which are somewhat inversely proportional to each other. This is of course not a new idea; racing games see cars with fast speed and bad handling (and vice versa), multiplayer games have different weapons that all have varying amounts of different stats, but none that stands out as better than the other. It's just preference and application. 

 

And this by no means is a suggestion only for weapons! They're just a good example. I am suggesting this for all types of objects and items; mining equipment, scanners and communication equipment, ore refining equipment, engines, reactors, etc. All of these objects, if given even just two stats that cannot simultaneously be maxed out, ensures that there will always be diversification and a rich economy.

 

What this does is:

1) Take away an end-game goal for people. Many might aim for the top-tier items and, upon obtaining those, be at a loss for what to do next and grow bored.

2) Add growth and variety to the economy. This is what we don't want, and I can see it now... "Max stats" a search term in the ship store, and the most popular ships and structures (the only ones people are interested in) are those that contain the top-tier of everything.

3) Add strategy to factions of any and every size and skill level. No faction can ever reach the point of being as good as they can be, because there are always different ways to use different items.

4) Basically, ensure that no one can ever be the best. (Sorry Ash)

 

I think it is important, if it is agreed upon, that this become implemented at the beginning of the games life. Because if it is not, it might get very difficult to implement later on.

What are some thoughts of yours?

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It's a good principle for game design.

 

I'm not sure how much equipment there is actually going to be in the game but yes the game should be based around mechanics that create multiple strategies.

 

In terms of end game its going to be around PVP and which faction has the best designed ships to counter the ships there enemy is using.

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Exactly that, best designed, not best outfitted. It's not a super rare, difficult, or unique set of game mechanics, I just feel that it is extremely important, and something that some people may never really think about or realize until they've heard of it.

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i concur, but the increase of stats has to be logarithmic to not create too many one shot weapons or invincible stuff for low levels.

logarithms are the most natural progression curve in these matters (a weird scientific fact, many stats show logarithmic tendencies IRL).

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This is an excellent idea. One of the biggest problems with sandbox games or just games in general is the end game is truely 'end game'. Once you've reached it, there's nothing else to do. Sandbox games should be unending. There should always be something that you have not done yet (Unless you have spent your entire life playing it, which some people will probably do) I am totally up for this idea.

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"

Good day, ATMLVE. I very much agree with your point. 

 

There is no created object that exists without its imperfections. While the advantages of producing a refined object may outnumber the disadvantages, the drawbacks are usually hefty. I hope the developers take note of this. To the best of my knowledge, they already have. Great thinking.

"

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I sure hope so. And I don't mean that all the stats shouldn't improve in an upgrade, I'm not saying that at all. I just mean that ALL stats shouldnt all improve linearly on a single set path.

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i think branches are unwelcome: infinite subdivision is bland and boring, i'd say rather a net as some researches have two or more prequisites. this also can improve complexity thus end game content by setting multiple requirements for some researches, and some have 1/2 optional prequisites etc... 

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I want crafting of objects to be rather open...

 

1. I'd like visually for objects to have skins... and detail dyeable... maybe even contests for people to submit their 3D models for inclusion in the game during a later update...

2. The stats of whatever object determined by the materials... mods... gear... circuits... whatever you want to call them... that's slotted into them.

3. The process of putting the stat carrying items into a object skin requires skill and trade offs and synergies. 

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SWTOR has an "adaptive armor/weapon" set up that's kinda like what I want.

 

The armor object has no stats it just looks a certain way and you can dye it different colors.  You apply stats by putting into the slots, items that carry the stats you want... So the item can be made to be useful for any job/class.

 

But it doesn't really require much skill or knowledge or puzzling out of anything to slot in the items. Anyone can do it... just buy the items you want and put them in...  I'd like to see this part as a more complex system...

 

Something where stat items arranged a certain way on a crafting grid can work off each other to raise or lower effects are combine to apply new effects.  Or something like that.  Maybe a whole different method...  But which achieves the same goal... that being a complex system of trade offs where a skilled person can manipulate things to tailor make an item to fit any particular play style.

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I proposed a material/material quality/molecule group based stats generation system, so depending of the quality and rarity of the materials used you may have different stats.

And that would perhaps be the way to "upgrade" components in the first place, simply using better materials to make a new version which is better than what you made with more common materials. And like you say, depending what you use you get different stats... So if you use a magnetic resonator you get high damage and low range, but if you use a dynamic oscillator you get longer range with less damage. Two equal components, using slightly different amounts of rare materials, but of course you have to choose between one or the other.

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It's a neat idea from a game design PoV. And normally I'd agree. But DU - well, DU has the potential to push the boundaries.

 

The beauty and opportunity presented by a market / build system which has the "best" of a thing - it does drive innovation ("arms race") -  but that is the let down of most real sandboxes / complex MMO's - the "research/skill" side of things is finite - limited to as far as the Dev's will let you go as they have to put a "box" around the limit of human knowledge in a sense.

 

But - WHAT IF DU had a means (which from what I'm learning of LUA and Voxel stuff) of essentially building in the ability to truly invent new ideas and technology (based on either clear need and/or previous history), and then build it. Then, as Aetherios says - is there really ever a perfect anything?

 

Another way to think of that concept - modding. Rather than we, the players, asking the Dev's to "implement this thing" or "make us this feature" - a DU SDK / Mod kit thing COULD let players actually invent those things and put them into practice. (Yes yes, with peer review, and dev approvals etc - some level of moderation is required).

 

And as it's inherently limited to the existing tech (the LUA scripts you have now, the methods, the materials etc) - you essentially allow the natural organic progression of technology/invention/innovation to occur without stupid leaps of thought - tech progression would feel "natural".

 

(Lunch, bored, thinking out loud again. Sorry.)

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This is the time to air our hopes and dreams for the game.... and hope one of them gets added to the Big list of things they want to implement now... or later...

 

If things go well then before too long there will be too much for them to pay attention to.  So now is the time.

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But - WHAT IF DU had a means (which from what I'm learning of LUA and Voxel stuff) of essentially building in the ability to truly invent new ideas and technology (based on either clear need and/or previous history), and then build it. Then, as Aetherios says - is there really ever a perfect anything?

 

 

 

This is the part that makes the most sense to me personally.  If we are trying to take a real world outlook on this, then technology simply has to become better.  There is no best right now either.

 

For the sake of this example, let's use vehicles.  We decide to take a trip somewhere and a total of 7 people are going.  We can take two vehicles each capable of holding 4 people; or we can take a vehicle capable of carrying 8 people.  Now that we have selected the one vehicle capable of carrying 8 people, we can pick the SUV or the Mini-Van, depending on terrain and fuel constraints.  We have now selected the "Best" mode of transportation.  The game is over, no further decisions to be made, right?  

 

50 years ago - Station wagon or VW bus

100 years ago - 2 Model Ts 

150 years ago - Horse and carriage

 

The definition of "Best" is always a combination of technology and accessibility.  In other words, if the technology is present but it is inaccessible, then only the few elite have the best.  As the accessibility expands and the technology in question is thereby more affordable, the people pushing the boundaries naturally look for the competitive edge, thus driving innovation.

 

Putting an artificial cap on that innovation would lead to the stagnation you are talking about.  The only difference is would I prefer my Mini-Van to be made by Nissan, Dodge, Toyota etc..  Each one will have a slight advantage in a particular area, but we are not allowed to imagine the next option; Hyper-Loops, Electric vehicles powered by the road on which they travel, hover technology.

 

In short, allow the players to make new "Bests" so we can grow the universe.

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