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Shynras

Regarding economy, currency and NPCs

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Emergent gameplay doesn't mean that there can be no intervention.  If the game deflates to the point that mining isn't fun anymore people will stop mining, and the price might go back up after a while, but the game could lose playerbase during that time period.  This is just 1 example of how a little outside interference might be beneficial to keep the game fun and keeping the player base around.  Personally, though, I hope NQ does mostly leave the market alone.  

 

I trust that NQ will do their best to find a middle ground between too hands off and to much manipulation.

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17 hours ago, Felonu said:

Emergent gameplay doesn't mean that there can be no intervention.  If the game deflates to the point that mining isn't fun anymore people will stop mining, and the price might go back up after a while, but the game could lose playerbase during that time period.  This is just 1 example of how a little outside interference might be beneficial to keep the game fun and keeping the player base around.  Personally, though, I hope NQ does mostly leave the market alone.  

 

I trust that NQ will do their best to find a middle ground between too hands off and to much manipulation.

Not really, the economy is more stable and fair without external interventions and more balanced towards the effort/reward ratio. 

To make things mroe easy to understand:

NQ will add bots that will buy/sell stuff effectively transforming resources into quantas (credits), and the prices those bots will be offering will change depending on the request/offer ratio

Being able to transform raw resources into quantas with crafting is actually the same thing: 1)you exchange resources for quantas, 2)the value of the resource/quanta depends on the request/offer ratio. The only difference is that the first method depends on NQ, the second one depends on the players. 

 

If you think people will camp mine fields if you can craft credits from that resource, then they will do the same with the resources you can sell to the bots that NQ will provide. If you think about it, both systems work the same way, the only difference is that one is more emergent than the other.

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12 minutes ago, Shynras said:

If you think people will camp mine fields if you can craft credits from that resource, then they will do the same with the resources you can sell to the bots that NQ will provide. If you think about it, both systems work the same way, the only difference is that one is more emergent than the other

With one difference though: there are way more resource veins in general which can be mined for quantas in comparison to only a few veins of that specific resource

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3 hours ago, Lethys said:

With one difference though: there are way more resource veins in general which can be mined for quantas in comparison to only a few veins of that specific resource

You can add more veins or let players craft quantas from many different resources, it's not really a problem

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27 minutes ago, Shynras said:

You can add more veins or let players craft quantas from many different resources, it's not really a problem

I wanted to say : "We'll see"....but then realized that they won't go for this system so...guess we'll have to see....maybe :D

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i dont know if anyone suggested it .... i didnt want to read all posts but i think NPC traders should be in game all the time but the price for the ore will adjust to the number of credits in economy per player .... this way once enought credits are in the economy the price of ore will be so low no one will want to sell to NPC. Another situation ... lets say NPC traders will be removed from game after 3 months .... and after that lot more players will join the game and there will be lot of credits missing i think.

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I 100% support the idea of hiring an actual financial adviser to work at NQ to oversee the system development (or assist).

 

The reason is as simple as the concepts people have been talking about - Getting the proper balance is likely beyond what anyone here is capable of (no offense if someone is professionally employed in the industry). MMO's are ridiculously hard to balance in terms of economy, we will likely have inflation if it is not done properly (or other similar bad things).

 

The only thing I am actually concerned about is the implementation of some of these mechanics. NPC traders is a very concerning idea to me because it seems arbitrary at best. Similar to the idea of crafting your own money - seems arbitrary and somewhat concerning. Sadly I also think the idea of letting "the emergent gameplay" decide is also potentially full of problems. So all-in-all I am not sure where I stand, other then saying hiring a professional at NQ to oversee it would be a step in the right direction.

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English (Translator used)
 

Hello your economist

The cash balance in a game can be made simple.

In DU, for example, there are only three relevant variables.
1. Resources already in the game.
2. Resources introduced into the game.
3. Resources removed from the game.

  1. Materials and resulting products are ultimately infinite because they are created by players. Relevant is only the rate of increase, but is dependent on the amount of players and the way of playing. Blueprints and production speed is way of playing. But no matter how the rate of increase, there must be a currency as a trade equalization.
  2. In the beginning, each player should have so many currency units that he can buy the basic products for the game (NPC dealer as a seller of products not yet available in the market; never buyers). This means that there is so much capital in the market, which is possible with every game style. From then on with each DAC a player pays as a monthly fee, a new amount of currency units newly determined by NQ monthly is paid to the player. The amount of this monthly salary depends on the rate of increase in available resources and total capital in the game (players with Lifetime Subscription receive the same salary, and are not market relevant by their low number <10% later <1%). Stay the DAC to be bought but not used as a monthly fee. These influence the market only by selling to players who use it as a monthly fee. This may lead to market distortions (but is unlikely).
  3. Destroyed products and unsaleable blueprints influence only the rate of increase and thus only affect point 2.
    TCU fees levied by NQ reduce the total capital and are thus also offset by point 2.
    The DAC in the game will only leave the game if a player buys a DAC present in the game and then redeems it as a monthly fee. For players to be ready to sell DAC, the starting capital of new players must be so high that a new player can buy it in the game (first month free).

There remains a problem, the rate of increase of player numbers.
Increasing the number of players is all manageable.
Stagnating the player numbers there is little to no monthly salary and / or the TCU fees are increased.
If the player numbers decrease, the starter capital must be reduced so far that no DAC is sold to new players in the game.

 

 

Quote

 

German (original)
 
Hallo ihr Ökonomen
 
Die Zahlungsmittelbilanz in einem Spiel kann einfach gestaltet werden.
 
In DU zum Beispiel gibt es nur drei Relevante Größen.
1. Ressourcen die im Spiel schon vorhanden sind.
2. Ressourcen die ins Spiel eingebracht werden.
3. Ressourcen die aus dem Spiel entnommen werden.
  1. Materialien und daraus entstandene Produkte sind letztendlich unendlich, da sie von Spielern erzeugt werden. Relevant ist nur die Zunahmegeschwindigkeit, die ist aber von der Menge der Spieler und der Spielweise abhängig. Blueprints und Produktionsgeschwindigkeit ist Spielweise. Aber egal wie die Zunahmegeschwindigkeit entsteht muß eine Währung als Handelsausgleich in entsprechender Höhe vorhanden sein.
  2. Am Anfang sollte jeder Spieler so viele Währungseinheiten besitzen, das er die für das Spiel grundlegenden Produkte kaufen kann (NPC-Händler als Verkäufer von noch nicht vorhandenen Produkten im Markt; niemals Käufer). Damit ist soviel Kapital im Markt, das mit jeder Spielweise ein Start möglich ist. Ab dann wird mit jedem DAC den ein Spieler als Monatsgebühr zahlt, eine von NQ monatlich neu festgelegte Menge an Währungseinheiten dem Spieler ausgezahlt. Die Höhe dieses Monatsgehalts richtet sich nach der Zunahmegeschwindigkeit der verfügbaren Ressourcen und des Gesamtkapitals im Spiel (Spieler mit Lifetime-Subscription erhalten das gleiche Gehalt; sie sind durch ihre geringe Anzahl nicht Markt relevant < 10% später < 1%). Bleiben die DAC die gekauft werden aber nicht als Monatsgebühr genutzt werden. Diese beeinflussen den Markt nur durch den Verkauf an Spieler die ihn als Monatsgebühr verwenden. Dadurch kann es zu Marktverwerfungen kommen (ist aber unwahrscheinlich).
  3. Zerstörte Produkte und unverkäufliche Blueprints beeinflussen nur die Zunahmegeschwindigkeit und wirken damit nur auf Punkt 2.
    TCU-Gebühren die durch NQ erhoben werden verringern das Gesamtkapital und werden damit auch durch Punkt 2 ausgeglichen.
    Die DAC im Spiel werden das Spiel nur verlassen, wenn ein Spieler einen im Spiel vorhandenen DAC kauft und ihn dann als Monatsgebühr einlöst. Damit Spieler bereit sind DAC zu verkaufen muß das Startkapital neuer Spieler so hoch sein damit ein neuer Spieler ihn im Spiel kaufen kann (erster Monat kostenlos).

 

Bleibt ein Problem, die Zunahmegeschwindigkeit der Spielerzahlen.

Steigen die Spielerzahlen ist alles beherrschbar.

Stagnieren die Spielerzahlen gibt es wenig bis keine Monatsgehälter und/oder die TCU-Gebühren werden erhöht.

Sinken die Spielerzahlen muß das Starterkapital soweit herab gesetzt werden, das keine DAC im Spiel an neue Spieler verkauft werden.
 
 

 

Die Waldfee

 

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7 hours ago, huschhusch said:

In the beginning, each player should have so many currency units that he can buy the basic products for the game (NPC dealer as a seller of products not yet available in the market; never buyers). This means that there is so much capital in the market, which is possible with every game style. From then on with each DAC a player pays as a monthly fee, a new amount of currency units newly determined by NQ monthly is paid to the player. The amount of this monthly salary depends on the rate of increase in available resources and total capital in the game (players with Lifetime Subscription receive the same salary, and are not market relevant by their low number <10% later <1%).

Wait, what?

Those bots from NQ will only create buy orders for ore - nothing more. They won't sell engines, fuel tanks, armor plates or other stuff. Those items have to be produced by players

 

And why should everyone get money from NQ.....because he did nothing? You won't get a salary from NQ ingame and you won't magically get richer just because you pay a monthly sub.

People would just abuse this and create alts with their already bought DACs just to get more money - either destroying this "salary system" for everyone (as there would be more people -> less money for everyone per month) or just getting double the money (mainchar + alt).

So yeah, that's just a bad system imho - it's way better to give players a way to work for your money instead of just throwing it at them for free

 

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We know that NQ will generate fake buy orders on the market, and that selling to those buy orders will be the only way to inject Quanta into the game.

 

We don't know which resources will be bought by the fake buy orders. Logically, the first buy orders will be for ores that can easily be mined on Alioth, i.e. "common" ores.

We don't know what the prices offered will be. Will they be artificially high at launch, to accelerate the pace of money creation ? Will they change over time ?

We don't know if there will also be fake buy orders for manufactured items, but it's unlikely, because that will be large-scale interference in the "player-driven" market.

We don't know if there will also be fake sell orders, but it's unlikely, because the only reason for removing currency from the game will be if the population shrinks significantly.

 

We also know that NQ plan to remove the fake buy orders from time to time, so that the amount of currency in circulation ("active Quanta") stays within a target range.

 

Players will leave the game at various points, or stop playing for a few months. That removes all the currency in their wallets from circulation, and reduces the pool of "active Quanta" in the economy. The fake buy orders will have to be reactivated every time the amount of "active Quanta" drops below a certain threshold.

 

If the overall population increases, the fake buy orders will have to be reactivated, to adjust the "active Quanta" to reflect the new total population.

 

So it's obvious that the fake buy orders will be a permanent feature in DU, even though they will temporarily disappear from the market from time to time.

 

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