Subscription should not be its pay model

[Megaddd]

It feels like this thread is going on a tangent within itself.

 

Clocking in at 9 pages, if there's ever been a thread on these forums that deserves to be locked, this would be it.

 

..At least until we get any more statements regarding the payment model, which should be discussed in a separate thread anyways.

[magnatron]

It feels like this thread is going on a tangent within itself.

 

Clocking in at 9 pages, if there's ever been a thread on these forums that deserves to be locked, this would be it.

 

..At least until we get any more statements regarding the payment model, which should be discussed in a separate thread anyways.

 

you know as well as i do that closing this thread would just breed at least two new ones. better this thread 100 pages long than 100 separate threads on the same topic.

 

at least in my opinion anyway.

[Anaximander]

you know as well as i do that closing this thread would just breed at least two new ones. better this thread 100 pages long than 100 separate threads on the same topic.

 

at least in my opinion anyway.

HAIL HYDRA. ONE THREAD CLOSES, TWO MORE SHALL ARISE!

[magnatron]

HAIL HYDRA. ONE THREAD CLOSES, TWO MORE SHALL ARISE!

 

i think you may have just won the internet today captain.

[Ghoster]

For Cpt. Kirk sake. Can we stop use "I personally don't like this price" argument in this discussion? You are one single player, period. ONE. And your whims are little important to overall economic strategy of game studio.

 

We for instance can discuss how any of pay model influence numbers of players, mechanic, PR and so on - but I beg all of you, do not use totally personal arguments. I too, can state "I do not like sci-fi, make this game medieval, or I do not pay for this!". And what?

 

Have some common sense and decency ;<

 

btw. EVEN this 10-15 $ range is WILD GUESS. So, we even don't know IF game will be cost as much - but someones can rant about it all day long ;/

ok, cool. I would also like to stop turning personal thoughts or arguments into nonsense with strange rhetorics, comparing rants about expected prices level to suggestions about turning this game into totally different one, 'cause it's really weird and also against common sense.

 

About wild guesses - the temperature of disscusion raised when some of you (not pointing any fingers) claimed, that any price lower than 15$ would not make this game sustainable for devs. Just as you have any real and reliable data about costs of running a MMPORG game or costs of running NQ. :> 

[AgensLeti]

For Cpt. Kirk sake. Can we stop use "I personally don't like this price" argument in this discussion? You are one single player, period. ONE. And your whims are little important to overall economic strategy of game studio.

 

We for instance can discuss how any of pay model influence numbers of players, mechanic, PR and so on - but I beg all of you, do not use totally personal arguments. I too, can state "I do not like sci-fi, make this game medieval, or I do not pay for this!". And what?

 

Have some common sense and decency ;<

 

btw. EVEN this 10-15 $ range is WILD GUESS. So, we even don't know IF game will be cost as much - but someones can rant about it all day long ;/

As a single player, you're correct. Though my opinion would be shared by many, just as yours is. The difference is that the majority who share my opinion would be deterred from pursuing any further upon hearing the game is pay to play and wouldn't consider investigating the developers reasoning behind it. Thus influencing the effectiveness of the payment model. Price is an important issue and it needs to be recognised and discussed, especially in a subscription based payment model.

 

With the P2P model, price vs content is the make or break for the game. Which is an unfortunate fact due to the amount of time and effort the devs put into creating the content. But if people don't feel as though they're going to get their money's worth, then it doesn't matter how much they charge for their monthly subscription, the game will eventually die.

 

Discussing the potential price for the game or how much an individual is willing to pay is at no stage devoid of common sense or decency. Especially when the devs are interested in hearing it.

[piddlefoot]

I was all like , this game looks even better than Empyrion and then I ran into this thread and it really is a poor model to use a subscription system where you have to pay over and over again.

 

If the game is good enough, the sales will stay very constant and the funds will come in just fine for development and keeping the game in a good state for years and if the plan is to be bigger and better than EVE and or Space Engineers or Empyrion or Startmade or Minecraft  then they should not have any problems with funding as it sells more and more copies from word of mouth on forums and Steam  etc.

The argument that only subscription games stay up to date and function properly is garbage.

 

User pays for Plex or any sort of ingame credits for real money is just a blatant way of ripping people of  a lot more money than they would usually pay for AAA games with the risk it wont even make it to become a AAA game.

 

So Im put of this game by this type of model and I hope the developers change there minds or at least have some form of the game that plays on a home PC in singleplayer or even home servers would be ideal.

[Anaximander]

Freeloaders like the most of you are the reason why the gaming industry is such a cesspool of WoW clones and CoD clones.


Let me me be specifically clear.


You want quality, YOU PAY FOR IT. Go play some crappy Free-to-Play MMO some hacks released to milk idiots off their money buying "energy drinks" or materials to avoid grinding. Go play some legalised gambling scheme like CS:GO or every other mobile game there is, where you buy something and it runs a routette system which is rigged against you, so you will be addicted to gambling for the items you want.


Dual Universe is not a game for your freeloader mindset. Go ruin some other game and company. Cause that's what your free-to-play nonsense is going to do to NovaQuark. They will drive people away with the cheater fiestas and 11-year old sociopaths loading cheats and hopping in to ruin your day. They wil lhave to fire people, because most Free-to-Play players, DO NOT BUY CRAP, and then the company is going to be bought by private investors, who will force them to add "energy" in the game for every action you make, and then, the game will die, like Archage and every other Free-to-Play crap coming out of Korea.

[Ghoster]

I was all like , this game looks even better than Empyrion and then I ran into this thread and it really is a poor model to use a subscription system where you have to pay over and over again.

 

If the game is good enough, the sales will stay very constant and the funds will come in just fine for development and keeping the game in a good state for years and if the plan is to be bigger and better than EVE and or Space Engineers or Empyrion or Startmade or Minecraft  then they should not have any problems with funding as it sells more and more copies from word of mouth on forums and Steam  etc.

The argument that only subscription games stay up to date and function properly is garbage.

 

User pays for Plex or any sort of ingame credits for real money is just a blatant way of ripping people of  a lot more money than they would usually pay for AAA games with the risk it wont even make it to become a AAA game.

 

So Im put of this game by this type of model and I hope the developers change there minds or at least have some form of the game that plays on a home PC in singleplayer or even home servers would be ideal.

99% of people taking part in this discussion won't agree with you on this. And most people here want to commit financially in otder to provide constant inflow of money for the devs. And that's for a reason. With this type of universe and experience that game intends to provide, any F2P mechanics will simply ruin it. F2P turns usually to P2W, punishing players that don't pay by making them puppies for kicking by the paying players, and making their grind a living hell. And we would love to build a community of equal players, where everyone contributes to the game developmenet, and everyone can actually enjoy playing it on the same level. We differ in the field of how much $ we should be able to dish out monthly, however most of us want the P2P model. This isn't a box game, where you pay for finished product, you get a chance to BUY another DLC packs with additional funcionalities/missions, and game over. It's a constant developing game with emerging gameplay. So, yeah...

[piddlefoot]

I don't really care what other peoples opinions are, its the developers that need to read this thread and get the message that there going to loose potentially millions of customers over a 10 year period with this garbage business model.

 

I am heavily involved in the gaming industry and game development , and I know that this type of business model is a scam. Imagine if Minecraft had done this, they never would have sold 33 million copies but they would probably have made just as much of a few people in the short time the game would have been around, but because Minecraft used a MUCH BETTER business model it made Notch a fortune and the game TO THIS DAY is still getting updates and development. WAKE UP.

 

To those who like to insult people over there view and get personal, you have just shown your true colours that you are immature.

 

If you want a quality game you need a better business model than one that blatantly rips you off every month.

 

Thousands of potential customers GONE, from this poor decision.

 

Like I said, if the game is good enough the funds will come in anyway as more buy it, this is a PROVEN business model that actually works in BOTH developer and CUSTOMER favour, wake up there ripping you off, yes the game looks great but no game is worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars over a couple of year period you just have to have failed maths at school to believe it so.

[nietoperek]

TIL Minecraft operate on single-shard server...

 

<facepalm>

 

PS: Mister Developer, you missed a memo about scams called WoW and Eve Online

 

PS2: Gaming business models for dummies: http://www.raphkoster.com/games/snippets/on-pay-to-play-or-mmorpg-business-models-101/

[Anaximander]

I don't really care what other peoples opinions are, its the developers that need to read this thread and get the message that there going to loose potentially millions of customers over a 10 year period with this garbage business model.

 

I am heavily involved in the gaming industry and game development , and I know that this type of business model is a scam. Imagine if Minecraft had done this, they never would have sold 33 million copies but they would probably have made just as much of a few people in the short time the game would have been around, but because Minecraft used a MUCH BETTER business model it made Notch a fortune and the game TO THIS DAY is still getting updates and development. WAKE UP.

 

To those who like to insult people over there view and get personal, you have just shown your true colours that you are immature.

 

If you want a quality game you need a better business model than one that blatantly rips you off every month.

 

Thousands of potential customers GONE, from this poor decision.

 

Like I said, if the game is good enough the funds will come in anyway as more buy it, this is a PROVEN business model that actually works in BOTH developer and CUSTOMER favour, wake up there ripping you off, yes the game looks great but no game is worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars over a couple of year period you just have to have failed maths at school to believe it so.

Your arguement is so invalid, because WoW, because EVE. EVE's only issue is its difficulty curve. People recognise quality and pay for it. If you are a freeloader, please say that. No subscription is riping you off if the game has content, and unless you missed it, the game is procedurally generated. In layman's terms, endless exploration (sorta endless, one day you will pass away from old age as we all will). You need to stop being cheap, good things are paid for. 

 

 

And Mr. "Developer", Minecraft earns revenue from every server that pops-up, otherwise those servers infringe on the copyright. Get dunked.

[piddlefoot]

How am I a freeloader, I pay for all of my games and I don't steal them or music, your slack attempt at labelling people is a sneaky way to change the subject and try to take the focus of the poor business model these chumps are using.

 

In fact I usually buy multiple copies of pre-alpha games which supports the developers, who are you to assume anything, just shows how you assume everything and don't know what your talking about at all.

 

Minecraft does not charge YOU a cent to play on there servers. Period.

And you even get your OWN server with there software, ppfftt Dual Universe, more like Dual WALLET !

 

You don't have to agree with me, and I haven't attacked you personally, you could ignore posts you don't like, isn't that hard, I read the thread and ignored most of them and posted for the developers to read not to be insulted by some fanboy who doesn't like another persons opinion.

 

Edit.

 

By the way, Ive never payed minecraft a cent for the server that I ran for years from my home, on software that came with the game for 30 bucks, in 2 years you can tell me how much this game has cost you at that point and we can all have a good laugh about it then, sound like a plan ?

[Anaximander]

How am I a freeloader, I pay for all of my games and I don't steal them or music, your slack attempt at labelling people is a sneaky way to change the subject and try to take the focus of the poor business model these chumps are using.

 

In fact I usually buy multiple copies of pre-alpha games which supports the developers, who are you to assume anything, just shows how you assume everything and don't know what your talking about at all.

 

Minecraft does not charge YOU a cent to play on there servers. Period.

And you even get your OWN server with there software, ppfftt Dual Universe, more like Dual WALLET !

With this kind of sentence structure I doubt even if you are over 20, let alone involved in any sort of business or industry. The servers you play minecraft take donations, or as I call them, Paytowinions. From that revenue, they pay royalty checks to Minecraft's parent company. You are an economically and monetisingly oblivious individual. Please stop argueing. I get puberty hit you with a shovel, but the devs won't change their mind. Especially not with arguements that are bovine excrement.

[Wardion2000]

I don't really care what other peoples opinions are, its the developers that need to read this thread and get the message that there going to loose potentially millions of customers over a 10 year period with this garbage business model.

 

I am heavily involved in the gaming industry and game development , and I know that this type of business model is a scam. Imagine if Minecraft had done this, they never would have sold 33 million copies but they would probably have made just as much of a few people in the short time the game would have been around, but because Minecraft used a MUCH BETTER business model it made Notch a fortune and the game TO THIS DAY is still getting updates and development. WAKE UP.

 

To those who like to insult people over there view and get personal, you have just shown your true colours that you are immature.

 

If you want a quality game you need a better business model than one that blatantly rips you off every month.

 

Thousands of potential customers GONE, from this poor decision.

 

Like I said, if the game is good enough the funds will come in anyway as more buy it, this is a PROVEN business model that actually works in BOTH developer and CUSTOMER favour, wake up there ripping you off, yes the game looks great but no game is worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars over a couple of year period you just have to have failed maths at school to believe it so.

 

I don't want to insult you or belittle you Piddle.  Not really my thing.  I will endeavor not to.  

 

However, you say "you don't care what other people's opinions are".  Okay, that's fine.  I don't know what you're doing posting on a COMMUNITY forum then.  But that's fine. 

 

Your opinion matches many others that have been posted here.  This too is fine.

 

Your opinion is not gospel, though.  Just because you say it doesn't make it true.  It might BE, it might NOT.  This is in spite of whatever "involvement" you have in the gaming industry, not excluding it.

 

A subscription model for games CAN work if people believe it is worth paying for.  The developers of DU believe they are making a game that can fulfill the criteria.  If you believe there is evidence otherwise and wish to bring up an opinion here to be perused by others.  That too is fine.

 

But unless you are the bloody Kwisatz Haderach and have visions of the Golden Path the devs should take for a successful game future it is only YOUR opinion.  Please keep it as such instead of stating it as if it were fact.

[piddlefoot]

I never said it doesn't work as a business model, just its a really poor one, the end user is the one being ripped off , not the developers they make heaps fast even if the game fails like so many of these have, if a game that you pay for once stops development at least you still have a game to play, if they stop these types of games often the server shut down also rendering the game effectively dead.

The end user pays way to much for these type of subscriptions and then in game credits for real money and pay to win items its really a bad joke for fair game play, and because of the huge long term costs tens of thousands of players will never even touch it.

I don't speak on behalf of any developers, I speak as an end user like you, this type of subscription system should worry all of you really. 

 

What are the computer specs of the system this game will be running on anyone know ?

 

And what is the cost of the subscription going to be ?

 

And what about in game perks, how much are they ?

 

Yall should start a petition to get the devs to consider a different business model.

[Ghoster]

 

The end user pays way to much for these type of subscriptions and then in game credits for real money and pay to win items its really a bad joke for fair game play, and because of the huge long term costs tens of thousands of players will never even touch it.

I don't speak on behalf of any developers, I speak as an end user like you, this type of subscription system should worry all of you really. 

Umm...the game design and mechanics doesn't provide any P2W items, this is not the type of game we're talking about here. Yes, you can gain some game money for the PLEX token you sell, so you would be able to buy some resources, items, maybe ship. But that's it. There's no OP mechanics involved here, as all ships are created by players, joining mesh and voxel elements, so there are no "rare" "unique" "legendary" modules you can get from the shop, that will make you unstoppable.  

 

About paying too much: we're having a really hot disscusion about how much devs should charge monthly for the game: most radical subscription enthusiasts advocate 15$ month, but there are voices like mine or other community members who clearly state it's too much, and propose something less than 10$. Additionally, the PLEX-alike system is said to be implemented into the game, so basically you can gain in-game money to buy a sub, which is possible to reduce yearly subscription cost by an amount.

[piddlefoot]

Thank you for some clarification there about the funding, I haven't had much time to browse through the forum just in my spare time Ive posted here so far, I would agree 15 is to much, I would rather see it as low as 5$ before I see any value at all as its the sort of game your likely to play for years not months if your into this genre.

 

Is there a thread on the specs of the server system that's going to be running the game anywhere ?

 

Nice to hear theres no in game major perks yet, but this is something that can change at anytime without notice, I guess this is something that will reflect poorly on the developers if they chose to do that so lets hope they never do.

[Jett_Quasar]

I actually really like the EVE model of "play to pay".  This makes complete sense to me since it gives you an incentive to actually play the game and get ahead in order to avoid paying a monthly fee.  It gives an incentive for new players to get good at the game and have the community more involved in building out the world universe.  On the other hand you can pay the monthly subscription fee and choose to keep your hard earned in-game currency to build up your empire.  

 

My question is, what happens if you want to take some time off and not participate in the game?  Do you still need to keep forking over the subscription fee or can you suspend your account until you're back from "vacation"?

[REZistance]

Just popped in to add my opinion on the subject. Even though it seems like a foregone conclusion that this will be a subscription based game, I personally will not pay a subscription to play a game. I'd be happy to pay 40-60 for a complete game; it definitely should NOT be free-to-play. No 'freeloader' comments necessary, just one persons opinion, meant for the developers, on what they are willing to spend.

 

As a player, I am interested in the building aspect of the game. The tech demo showing scale-able blocks and massive Capital ships really piqued my interest. I currently spend a lot of time playing Empyrion, and one of the features that really increases the value of that game, for me, is being able to upload your creations to the Workshop so other players can use them in game. EGS is still quite young, and so the creative freedom in building is a bit restrictive at the moment. Seeing the scale-able blocks, amongst other features, that DU is aiming for is very exciting... but paying a monthly subscription to play the game is a non-starter for me.

 

Cheers guys, and best of luck with your game

[Khaymann]

The pay model is perfect for the game. It keeps out the undesirables out and keeps the company funded for further development on the game. As for the price point $10 - $15 is about right for this type of game. The cost of the servers alone is going to be absurd (at very least $200k plus monthly up keep cost and maintenance) not to mention the staff wages (average programmer makes how much per month? and how many do they have?). So please give me some VALID (not just cuz its expensive!) reasoning why you beleave that a $10 - $15 price point is to much. On top of that why do you not want an amazing game to make more profit and make it even more amazing!

[Tnecniw]

I never said it doesn't work as a business model, just its a really poor one, the end user is the one being ripped off , not the developers they make heaps fast even if the game fails like so many of these have, if a game that you pay for once stops development at least you still have a game to play, if they stop these types of games often the server shut down also rendering the game effectively dead.

The end user pays way to much for these type of subscriptions and then in game credits for real money and pay to win items its really a bad joke for fair game play, and because of the huge long term costs tens of thousands of players will never even touch it.

I don't speak on behalf of any developers, I speak as an end user like you, this type of subscription system should worry all of you really. 

 

What are the computer specs of the system this game will be running on anyone know ?

 

And what is the cost of the subscription going to be ?

 

And what about in game perks, how much are they ?

 

Yall should start a petition to get the devs to consider a different business model.

"User being ripped off"?

 

Subscriber model for a full scale MMO is one of the most Stable versions for an MMO game, the reason most of the Subscriber MMORPGs nowadays have failed is due to them copying WoW too much, meaning that people just think "Meh, WoW has more, I want to go over there" meaning that there isn't enough Subscribers and the game FAIL.

 

A subscription is simply a very stable and good way to make sure the game flows with new content, stable servers and as little microtransactions as possible, which is awlays good.

 

Subscription also has a second effect: It gives the developers a reason to continue developing a game. So much money come in that they have no reason to stop developing. Do you really think WoW would have grown as it did if it wasn't a Sub game?

[UniversalG]

o boy, this thread is still going. Can people not understand they have to go with a subscription model, people thinking with their empty wallets

[vylqun]

I don't really care what other peoples opinions are, its the developers that need to read this thread and get the message that there going to loose potentially millions of customers over a 10 year period with this garbage business model.

 

 

yes, millions of potential, salty teenagers who can't afford to pay, big deal

B2P? Not a viably option for a niche game, it simply wouldn't generate enough income.

F2P+Itemshop? This is a builder game, even a pure cosmetic cash shop would have a big influence on the game, so not really an option either.

[piddlefoot]

So no one knows the system spec of the machine the game is going to be played on yet                   ?