Orbits?

[serolrom]

Hi, newbie here.

 

I read through, I think, most of the forum trying to get an idea beyond that we see in the trailer, and have my question at this point:

How will star systems work? That is: will planets orbit stars, and moons orbit planets? Will we be able to put a satellite in orbit? Taking into account what that means?

 

From the trailer I am not expecting orbital mechanics here, it doesn´t seem the point of this MMO either, but curious about how such things would work then.

 

 

[KlatuSatori]

Hi, welcome to the forum! Very good questions and the answer, unfortunately is that we just don't know. There's no information on gravity, physics mechanics or the spaceflight model. Wet know that anti gravity exists as a concept, and the trailer seems to suggest that this may be a prominent feature, so maybe that gives us a clue. If we're lucky Nyzaltar, the community manager, will respond to the thread and enlighten us

 

If you've read through the forums and are still interested in the game then I would definitely recommend reading the devblogs. There's lots of info on the game and they're a good read.

[OnePercent]

If they put in the effort to make biomes, planets, they will put in the effort to make planets go around stars and moons go around planets.

[serolrom]

Thanks fir sharing your thoughts and for the hint! The dev blog seems the right place to keep informed

 

Whatever the answer is to my question, they already have me in this one.

 

These are good times for sci-fi video gaming.

[norab7]

If they put in the effort to make biomes, planets, they will put in the effort to make planets go around stars and moons go around planets.

 

Not quite the same thing to implement i think.

 

You have to understand that it is a universe game, not just a galaxy, not just a solar system. Each part of the universe will have some influence on another part of the universe (if it follows real life at least) so what i mean is that:

 

Players are on Planets/moons

Moons Orbit Planets

Planets are parent to Moons

Planets orbit Stars

Stars are parent to Planets

Stars Orbit the Galaxy Center

Galaxy Centres (might) move around teh Universe

Then with the Quantum Devices proposed we could have a multiverse, like being able to hack into the RN's

ect

 

You have orbital planets, moons or anything with a player or player made construct on it, then you need to incorporate that into the calculations somehow. 

 

If there is orbiting mechanics that do this, then that would be awesome both for trying to find your way around the universe and that trying to land on a planet becomes more than simply 'point in this direction', you would need to plan your route to the planet and know where it's going to be (leading to better systems of navigation or tracking, but that's a different topic), heaven forbid if you want to change solar system. Not even kerbal has that kind of game play.

 

There is some discussions on the forums about it, the following is one of them. But like the others said, we just don't know enough about how the game would work to answer and orbital physics at the moment.

 

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/412-a-couple-of-questions/

 

nora,

[Traceur]

Interesting. Currently the creator of VoxelFarm (otherwise known as the EverQuest:Next engine), is trying to tackle this very problem:

 

Given that in Dual every struct is it's own clipmap, I'd imagine they have already built the game to tackle this difficulty, and since they are using procedural world generation, having the location as a function of time should be possible.

 

The other part of the question is... Do they want this, and to what extent. In Kerbal Space Program even something as a randevu with a space station in orbit is an art, and for the average player most trips in the star system are only plausible because of the ability to accelerate time (I don't know about you but if they needed supplies my Kerbels would have died long ago...More then they usually do). Now, this is an MMO, so making piloting difficult isn't necessarily bad, it just means most of us will be reliant on someone else doing it. Perhaps f=m*a can work in the game favor as a balancing mechanism, making piloting smaller ships easier but larger heavier ships would naturally become more dependent on circular momentum to stay in orbit and reach their destinations, depending on how thrust and different engine types and their energy consumption would scale. Another way of doing it is cost-effectiveness: You could have anti-gravity for those playing without, but the energy consumption relatively to the mass it cancels out could scale exponentially. This would also help explain why the arkships have big empty propellant tanks for you to roam: Those beasts were thrusting with good ol' fashioned rocketry. 

[Ripper]

There's a huge difference between KSP and DU. 

 

Plotting apogees and perigees to establish orbit, or intercept angles for combat won't be necessary.

 

The reason is twofold.

 

1.  We have anti-gravity technology, so we can establish a fixed position in space.

2.  With FTL travel and the speeds we're traveling, there's no need to plot an intercept angle.  You can travel from the moon to the planet in seconds.

 

I'd love to have full newtonian physics within the game, but I think its expecting a little much from the devs.

[Traceur]

2.  With FTL travel and the speeds we're traveling, there's no need to plot an intercept angle.  You can travel from the moon to the planet in seconds.

 

Speed kind of makes a lot of things more difficult, not easier.

 

If you'll look at games like star citizen, one of the things they had to place was a speed limit in order for fighter and ship to ship combat to be plausible, so that you can actually have the situation where everything happens in an environment where you can respond to things in human response time and at distances where you could actually see your target. Take the basic action of docking with a space station: in star citizen you can do this quite easily because your not going to be going that fast relatively to anything. In KSP you are going to fly by each other a few full trips around the planet before you are anywhere close to it.

 

That is a tough gig to balance out in terms of gameplay.

[Ripper]

At this point in time, there are three known methods of travel.

Thruster based travel

FTL travel

Stargate Travel

 

I don't expect combat in FTL travel.  (when you can outrun your laser blasts..   ) 

 

You're jumping between stargates, so no combat there.

 

It's the thuster based travel, which interdiction and combat will take place.

[serolrom]

I started the thread already assuming you won't have to deal with a model even remotely close to KSP. It would more likely break gameplay more than adding value to it.

I only assume that because of the teaser the devs have shown us. It would be a different game than that they are showing us. I mean, you don´t want to deal with orbital mechanics in this kind of game, same as you don´t want voxel building in Rogue System.

Im just curious about how are things going to work when it comes to placing satellites in "orbit" and a bunch of things only development will bring to attention.

[norab7]

I started the thread already assuming you won't have to deal with a model even remotely close to KSP. It would more likely break gameplay more than adding value to it.

 

I only assume that because of the teaser the devs have shown us. It would be a different game than that they are showing us. I mean, you don´t want to deal with orbital mechanics in this kind of game, same as you don´t want voxel building in Rogue System.

 

Im just curious about how are things going to work when it comes to placing satellites in "orbit" and a bunch of things only development will bring to attention.

 

What i said in a different thread is that you have lua.

 

We don't know of the limitations of Lua, but if you wanted something in orbit to travel around the planet (if the game doesn't have orbits like ksp) you can simply lua code it and have it fly around following a set of instructions instead of being in a true orbit.

 

However that being said, like what the others said, there will be anti-grav engines allowing you to just float, so orbit mechanics might not be there for the player creations maybe, but we don't know anything about how the planets and stars will work.

 

I hope there is orbital mechanics, but not quite as detailed as what ksp is, that's maybe pushing the boat a little bit. If it can be done i would love it, but with anti-grav it seem a little redundant.

 

nora,

[croxis]

The currency of space travel is delta-v (change in speed). Fuel and engine efficiency are the tools for that.  The reason why celestial orbital mechanics are important in KSP is that the amount of delta-v (fuel) needed to get from one body to another drastically changes depending on the alignment of the planets. The other factor that changes is travel time, but because of time acceleration in KSP it isn't important.

 

Being an mmo time is constant. I would wager that there is plenty of deltav in DU spacecraft, so fuel isn't as much of an issue as is time. I would balance it so that it would be the difference of a couple minutes to a half hour depending on if the planets are in opposition or not. It would make wars between planets much more interesting as you can plan around attack windows

[Wardion2000]

I was wondering if centrifugal forces would be present in the game and if planetary bodies will be realistic enough to have Lagrange points.

[bramborakov]

Plz excuse my (bad) english
 
There is might a possible middle way
Depends on how will the tech(tree?) work and how advanced will we be at start
The probably most difficult  option would be to
Make space flight and launches decreasingly difficult , starting almost at KSP level (orbiting would be needed to get somewhere , also space flights would take long time and launching  and maintaining would be very expensive  ) and as we find better technogies and fuels space flights would be getting less costly until it would be attainable for average individuals
 
About the tech (tree) I imagine
Starting with land based vehicles and water(or equivalent) ships soon to atmospheric crafts to ion and better (space) crafts then to increasingly advanced FTLs  then Stargates and beyond...[/color]
 
Progression system can be tech or resource based or combination of both(my favorite)
For examle : 1)The arc ship database has been damaged by unpredicted pulsar radiation wave and needs time to recover advaced tech – Time based system for whole universe
2) The arc ship database has been damaged by unpredicted pulsar radiation wave and its contents  are irreparably corrupted – have fun researching on your own!
3) You want to get FTL engine? Too bad , there isnt this exact type of resource on this planet.. maybe it is on diffrent planet in solar system – perhaps the furthes one to which it takes week to get to.... have fun!

OR combinations!
1 to certain technology then 2
1 and 3 – Finally , the Arc ship recovered FTL drives technlogy – oh wait, I need that extremely rare ore I found only once (didn´t mine it though because I thought it useless), in the comet that was flying near Arc planet, which is now on the other side of solar system...
Or 1 and 3 to certain technology then 2 and 3

[Shynras]

I'm pretty sure planets don't move atm, I guess you could assume from the trailer:

 

-The water on the planets is a static entity

-A huge movable planet would be considered like a planet-size ship, would it make the game lag? dunno, probably yes.

-The atmosphere is a static entity

 

So i don't think is gonna happen, they stated already that the game isn't going to be extremely focused on realism, and this feature imo would be too much for what it offers. They would at least rework water, atmosphere and find a way to not make it lag. Probably you can't find this feature even on singleplayer games

[this3ndup]

I think the core philosophy of a game like this is providing a robust framework for emergent building gameplay on a massive scale, as opposed to providing a realistic spaceflight simulator.  It's about building constructs, organizations, economies, and societies.  It's a civilization simulator.  Some things like limited Newtonian physics for spaceflight would be really nice, but beyond that a full-blown physics model governing planetary bodies wouldn't serve the actual purpose of the game and would (IMO) just be a distraction for developers and a barrier for less technically inclined players.  The important thing is creating a universe immersive and plausible enough that players can suspend disbelief and enjoy the canvas they've been given on which to create.

 

That being said, the suspension of disbelief would require something to create the illusion that planetary movement is happening.  Perhaps each world could rotate on a fixed axis, providing a day/night cycle and creating a passable illusion that other planetary bodies are rising and falling in the sky.  

[Anaximander]

I can see fixed orbits being possible in the game, I mean, its essentially coded momentum when your ship stays still. It's not really different than the "breathing" animation in any MMO out there. 

Given the few things I know of shaders and what Jean-Christopher Baillie said on an interview with the XPGamer on youtube, they have "homemade shaders", which could mean shaders for nighttime, given a planetary rotation AND POSSIBLY a shader definition for when a planet is far from a star on an elliptical orbit. Who knows, if the code can support frigging mech-suits, I don't think it orbits are a no-no.

[TrihXeen]

Lucky for you, I asked a similar question early on in the Q&A post. Hopefully they answer it.

[SnideMeister]

I kinda wonder if it would be possible to de-orbit a moon into a planet or whether planets and moons will have a fixed orbit.

[Anaximander]

Hopefully, you won't be able to de-orbit planets. Otherwise we all know what the greatest project in the game will be.



Operation : Majora's Mask.

[Cornflakes]

Hopefully, you won't be able to de-orbit planets. Otherwise we all know what the greatest project in the game will be.

 

 

 

Operation : Majora's Mask.

 

i wonder what would take longer, deorbiting or building that giant face first.

[Anaximander]

@Cornflakes

With so many artsy people flying about in here, I can't see that taking long.

[Wardion2000]

Hopefully, you won't be able to de-orbit planets. Otherwise we all know what the greatest project in the game will be.

 

 

 

Operation : Majora's Mask.

Your Pacific Rim sig will never be more appropriate than it is now.

[Anaximander]

@Wardion2000

Well, I put that signature there to signify how pumped I am for DU.

[macdja38]

I have no clue if planets will orbit other planets or whatever. Their's just 2 things I want to clarify. In our real life star system the moon is orbiting the earth but the earth is also orbiting the moon. They both effect each other and that's one of the things that makes the physics a bit more complex. That said I have no doubt we will be able to have ships orbit planets simply because it would be almost hard to break that mechanic. So long as ships are effected by gravity while near the planet and they can move they will be able to go into orbit around it. Orbiting a planit is as simle as moving in a straight line while the planet pulls you towards it. Even if all they do is implement ships that can move and planets that have gravity which pulls on ships I doubt their's much they could do to break that mechanic.