Hot Spots for Empire Building

[Zen001]

Resources play an important role in populating a game's territory. But more often than not resources such as habitable planets, lucrative planets and asteroids rich in mins, are evenly spaced. This is a mistake, especially for a game comprising of hundreds of millions of systems. The logic is to create a base for which players can launch their corporation and expand outwards, and of course that sounds logical enough but more often than not players end up fighting over the same old territory to establish who is most dominant; as a consequence there is very little expansion and once again the universe becomes vast, empty and stagnant - and sure that sounds like space alright but it isn't good for gaming. 

 

I propose DU create resource rich hot spots with habitable worlds to make empire building more feasible; these hot spots would have more resources available to sustain empires thus creating competing sectors. Of course this can still be done if resources are evenly spaced but sometimes events require signposts. And it may not even be a question of external influence but the reality that our galaxy may very well have areas that are more suitable for life than other areas. Also it would create some real interesting player generated content as they can either create democratic governments or despotic regimes. And of course it would be interesting gameplay not only due to competing factions within these regimes but also against competing empires as well. So if we have around 50~100 hotspots - depending on size of universe - it would be enough room to build empires but also support players who prefer a more independent existence in far off colonies. 

 

 

Perhaps it is too late to make such a suggestion, especially since DU is about to make an announcement at E3, but just thought I would throw it out there. 

[norab7]

Resources play an important role in populating a game's territory. But more often than not resources such as habitable planets, lucrative planets and asteroids rich in mins, are evenly spaced. This is a mistake, especially for a game comprising of hundreds of millions of systems. The logic is to create a base for which players can launch their corporation and expand outwards, and of course that sounds logical enough but more often than not players end up fighting over the same old territory to establish who is most dominant; as a consequence there is very little expansion and once again the universe becomes vast, empty and stagnant - and sure that sounds like space alright but it isn't good for gaming. 

 

I propose DU create resource rich hot spots with habitable worlds to make empire building more feasible; these hot spots would have more resources available to sustain empires thus creating competing sectors. Of course this can still be done if resources are evenly spaced but sometimes events require signposts. And it may not even be a question of external influence but the reality that our galaxy may very well have areas that are more suitable for life than other areas. Also it would create some real interesting player generated content as they can either create democratic governments or despotic regimes. And of course it would be interesting gameplay not only due to competing factions within these regimes but also against competing empires as well. So if we have around 50~100 hotspots - depending on size of universe - it would be enough room to build empires but also support players who prefer a more independent existence in far off colonies. 

 

 

Perhaps it is too late to make such a suggestion, especially since DU is about to make an announcement at E3, but just thought I would throw it out there. 

 

I think you underestimate people will to explore and be away from everyone, I see people becoming to spread out as a concern more than people being to condensed. I mean, once you have spaceflight, why would you create a base next to other people and the resources that they are getting, you would obviously look for your own resources to plunder that only you will mine and can claim for your own.

 

Hot spots, I don't like, that is asking for people to stop exploring for resources and to just settle down on a single planet because it has everything they need. I want to have to be forced to explore, make a mother ships that is my base and only have outposts on planets. Making a zone that is so rich in resources i think would only add to your concern about people fighting over the same places for dominance.

 

I don't expect it to be so even distributed that you can just flew in a single direction and come across blanket upon blanket of resources, but i also don't expect to find single areas that can sustain you for the duration of your play.

 

If you have the single area again for resources that can sustain you, why would you trade anything when you can just make it yourself. it would inturn cut off that organisation from trading externally, they have everything. Given that they could defend their position. But if they have the area to sustrain themselves for the duration, why would they not have all the defence they need?.

 

I don't know if i took your suggestion wrong, but I don't think i would like the idea of 'Rich Zones'. It would create points where you 'as a organisation' NEED to take and keep otherwise you are behind in strength, position, wealth, power and resources than other 'Organisations' and removes the external marketing point of the game for you.

 

hope my 'rebuttal?' makes sense .

 

nora,

[vylqun]

i wouldnt talk about hundreds of planets for the beginning, we will most likely be limited to a single planet for a loooong time.

And concerning the spread of ressources in planets, they are never equally spread, especially the easier to access ressources, else we wouldn't have had the gold rush in america or the big oil states in east asia etc.

So as long as the planets are generated properly i dont think there will be a problem with finding outstanding places to create an empire at.

[DevisDevine]

i wouldnt talk about hundreds of planets for the beginning, we will most likely be limited to a single planet for a loooong time.

And concerning the spread of ressources in planets, they are never equally spread, especially the easier to access ressources, else we wouldn't have had the gold rush in america or the big oil states in east asia etc.

So as long as the planets are generated properly i dont think there will be a problem with finding outstanding places to create an empire at.

 

For Alpha sure, a single planet/system. But as soon as the skill training allows someone to create an FTL drive, it will be used, trust me. So if it take 1 month to train for FTL, then in 1 month the first players will leave the system, if it takes 6 months then in 6 months. That will be on the Devs and how they build the skill tree. But I fully expect multiple systems in full release. I plan to be on that first ship out with my group. 

 

 

I agree with you on resource spread. I dont want an even spread, but I also dont huge clusters. It should be more natural and a bit random. So mountain ranges would have denser ores pushed to the surface, as well as volcanic ares. Swampy areas with soft ground would have dense elements settled down deep. And as for interstellar spreads, I would expect to see a lack of denser elements in first generation stars, and slowly increasing as you get to younger stars that formed from the matter of stars like supernovas, which create these denser elements. 

[Dreamstar]

I briefly commented on this notion in, the gold in them hills thread, but this is a good opportunity to address an issue in further detail.

 

With limited resources, even if the planets have huge stockpiles of resources, they will become depleted. not just taken, but entire planets will be gobbled up by mining, to create cruisers and all assortment of death machines.

 

Then those machines go forth and explode in a matter of minutes in combat.

Ooops, did it take a small moon to build that Battleship? well thats sad.

even if 90% of a ship's material worth is recoverable by salvaging, there are resources leaving the game, and only 1 way of new resources coming in, from regions further away.

 

If we consider the area around Alioth the "Core" regions of this galaxy, the empires after some time will begin a slow migration away from each other, conflict will become less common, eventually the empires will just see it as better to leave the core region where there is nothing to be gained. At that point what empire will stick around. It will be up to goodwill players, and the recruitment schemes of empires, if said empires even care, to pickup new players and haul them out to where civilization is currently ravaging resources.

 

Lets say, I decide to become a chaotic evil leader instead of .. well whatever I am, and I intentionally send hordes of players to mine ALL of the resources around Alioth, and to patrol and destroy ALL the stargates except our own in the Alioth system. Simultaneously I send agents to go and destroy or gather all the fuel in my enemies territories until they can no longer expand.

New players, either join me in the scheme of oppression, or they get mad and leave the game. The other empire's may try to fight back, but lets say by some means, I achieve this goal and shut down the games growth?

The post Nyza made said they wouldn't consider regenerating resources unless something unforeseeable happened, don't test a madman. If you make the conditions for "The Joker" to arise in the game, someone will fill the shoes.

"It's not about money... it’s about sending a message. Everything burns!" Heath-Joker.

[vylqun]

 

If we consider the area around Alioth the "Core" regions of this galaxy, the empires after some time will begin a slow migration away from each other, conflict will become less common, eventually the empires will just see it as better to leave the core region where there is nothing to be gained. At that point what empire it will be up to goodwill players, and the recruitment schemes of empires, if said empires even care, to pickup new players and haul them out to where civilization is currently ravaging resources.

 

don't forget there were a lot of arkships sent away, its reasonable to assume that after a certain playerdensity is reached in a system the new players will start at a different arkship/system, so your scenario will never happen.

 

 

For Alpha sure, a single planet/system. But as soon as the skill training allows someone to create an FTL drive, it will be used, trust me. So if it take 1 month to train for FTL, then in 1 month the first players will leave the system, if it takes 6 months then in 6 months. 

 

it certainly will not take just 1 or 2 months, and dont forget, after alpha and hopefull yafter beta too, there will be a whipe, that means only the progess starting from the official release counts.

 

I'd say it'd takes more than half a year for players to get access to ftl, especially when many of the basic recipes etc. aren't discovered yet, for players starting a lot later it'll be probably way faster to reach to that point.

[norab7]

I briefly commented on this notion in, the gold in them hills thread, but this is a good opportunity to address an issue in further detail.

 

With limited resources, even if the planets have huge stockpiles of resources, they will become depleted. not just taken, but entire planets will be gobbled up by mining, to create cruisers and all assortment of death machines.

 

Then those machines go forth and explode in a matter of minutes in combat.

Ooops, did it take a small moon to build that Battleship? well thats sad.

even if 90% of a ship's material worth is recoverable by salvaging, there are resources leaving the game, and only 1 way of new resources coming in, from regions further away.

 

If we consider the area around Alioth the "Core" regions of this galaxy, the empires after some time will begin a slow migration away from each other, conflict will become less common, eventually the empires will just see it as better to leave the core region where there is nothing to be gained. At that point what empire will stick around. It will be up to goodwill players, and the recruitment schemes of empires, if said empires even care, to pickup new players and haul them out to where civilization is currently ravaging resources.

 

Lets say, I decide to become a chaotic evil leader instead of .. well whatever I am, and I intentionally send hordes of players to mine ALL of the resources around Alioth, and to patrol and destroy ALL the stargates except our own in the Alioth system. Simultaneously I send agents to go and destroy or gather all the fuel in my enemies territories until they can no longer expand.

New players, either join me in the scheme of oppression, or they get mad and leave the game. The other empire's may try to fight back, but lets say by some means, I achieve this goal and shut down the games growth?

The post Nyza made said they wouldn't consider regenerating resources unless something unforeseeable happened, don't test a madman. If you make the conditions for "The Joker" to arise in the game, someone will fill the shoes.

"It's not about money... it’s about sending a message. Everything burns!" Heath-Joker.

 

I kind of disagree here. I think that you underestimate the power of people looking for a 'free area' away from people. Yeah the core planet Alioth might become over populated or taken hold of by a evil organisation, but unless you kill everyone on sight they should always have a option to get away. I mean if you take them to a new planet where you are based where they can mine their own stuff they will eventually get the required resources to leave anyway.

 

Give that you can take control of entire planets while they are populated with people that don't want to be controlled. There will always be rebellions against the evil oppressors unless you can remain a presence in almost 100% of the area you are controlling.

 

By that's beside the point, once we leave alioth i think that people will scatter to the winds, like myself i plan on just travelling as far as i can and exploring as much as i can while the games new, i might even end up testing the 'infinite' side of the game to see how far i can get away from alioth before 'needing' (as i'll not stop till i have to) to settle down into a base.

 

I will go where no-one ever will and find all the nice good things that people will never have the chance to find.

 

I think your idea of late game DU is flawed in the sense that people will remain at the core planet once they have the option to leave.

 

nora,

[Dreamstar]

I'm just bouncing ideas and thinking about where Alioth will be in four years past launch

[norab7]

I'm just bouncing ideas and thinking about where Alioth will be in four years past launch

 

Hopefully still welcoming brand new players into the fray

 

nora,

[DevisDevine]

I briefly commented on this notion in, the gold in them hills thread, but this is a good opportunity to address an issue in further detail.

 

With limited resources, even if the planets have huge stockpiles of resources, they will become depleted. not just taken, but entire planets will be gobbled up by mining, to create cruisers and all assortment of death machines.

 

Then those machines go forth and explode in a matter of minutes in combat.

Ooops, did it take a small moon to build that Battleship? well thats sad.

even if 90% of a ship's material worth is recoverable by salvaging, there are resources leaving the game, and only 1 way of new resources coming in, from regions further away.

 

If we consider the area around Alioth the "Core" regions of this galaxy, the empires after some time will begin a slow migration away from each other, conflict will become less common, eventually the empires will just see it as better to leave the core region where there is nothing to be gained. At that point what empire will stick around. It will be up to goodwill players, and the recruitment schemes of empires, if said empires even care, to pickup new players and haul them out to where civilization is currently ravaging resources.

 

Lets say, I decide to become a chaotic evil leader instead of .. well whatever I am, and I intentionally send hordes of players to mine ALL of the resources around Alioth, and to patrol and destroy ALL the stargates except our own in the Alioth system. Simultaneously I send agents to go and destroy or gather all the fuel in my enemies territories until they can no longer expand.

New players, either join me in the scheme of oppression, or they get mad and leave the game. The other empire's may try to fight back, but lets say by some means, I achieve this goal and shut down the games growth?

The post Nyza made said they wouldn't consider regenerating resources unless something unforeseeable happened, don't test a madman. If you make the conditions for "The Joker" to arise in the game, someone will fill the shoes.

"It's not about money... it’s about sending a message. Everything burns!" Heath-Joker.

 

As I have said, I hope they impliment resources close to realistic scales since they arent able to be refreshed. 

 

The startng planet is the only issue I see, as players will naturally venture away to be away from others to collect in peace. Remember that it will be PVP virtually everywhere. 

 

 

don't forget there were a lot of arkships sent away, its reasonable to assume that after a certain playerdensity is reached in a system the new players will start at a different arkship/system, so your scenario will never happen.

 

 

 

it certainly will not take just 1 or 2 months, and dont forget, after alpha and hopefull yafter beta too, there will be a whipe, that means only the progess starting from the official release counts.

 

I'd say it'd takes more than half a year for players to get access to ftl, especially when many of the basic recipes etc. aren't discovered yet, for players starting a lot later it'll be probably way faster to reach to that point.

 

Well we dont know what they will do yet, but I would expect multiple arkships as the population grows. 

 

 

I fully expect a wipe after alpha and beta, my comment was that Alpha will surely be only one system. You cant be certain of the time, so I will wait to see what they put in game. Regardless of what it is, as soon as possible players will leave. And remember, i mean bare minimum to get away, barely flyable is enough.  One of my guys will be training straight for that, even if he can do nothing else until then. If it really is 6 months, Im sure things will get a bit violent having players on one planet confined. Definatly a chance to make enemies or friends. 

 

But the quicker we can get away, the quicker more room can be cleared for new players. 

[Zen001]

Perhaps it is a bit early but eventually the DEVs will have to consider how players will unitize assets and expand through the universe. Having played EVE, Evochron and Elite, I have noticed that empire building centers around resources. In EVE this is what binds and creates Empires because some locations are more lucrative than others. And interesting, even with all the space and resources spread out evenly in Elite, no empire building has taken place. Another reason why ED is excruciatingly boring. So I don't think it is a question of underestimating players but rather underestimating the role resources play in shaping the gaming universe. What's more I am not talking about little to no resources beyond hot spots - there would certainly be enough for individuals and small corps to profit! But there will still need to be something that players gravitate towards, and it may not even need to be resources. It could be something else......

[KlatuSatori]

I wrote a little about resources in an old thread. I agree resources should not be perfectly evenly spread as that's kind of dull and makes it hard for neighbouring empires to form trade agreements.

 

You also need to avoid the opposite problem of all of one particular resource being in one area, and one empire gaining an incredibly strong hold on that location, dominating and monopolising that resource. This is especially a problem if the resource is extremely valuable and rare. However, I don't think this will happen in DU as resources will not be respawned.

 

I think I agree with Devis that it should be random, but natural. In the procedural generation there should be algorithms that tend some resources to cluster, others more even, etc.

 

I agree with vylqun about how long it is likely to take to spread to other planets. Several months after launch is the rough estimate we have for the first players reaching orbit. The impression I have is that it won't just be a matter of training an Eve style skill. It will require huge amounts of resourcing, crafting, designing, and building to get something that works.

 

Plus remember that the planets are huge. Up to 100km radius is the figure we have for the largest planets. That's 126,000km2 surface area, around 50,000 hexes! That is a lot of real estate. Planets won't be owned be single empires. More likely, when an organisation "colonises" a planet they'll claim one or two tiles, and so will a hundred other organisations, and the planet will still be largely untouched.

 

Its cool thinking about interplanetary, or even interstellar empires, but I imagine many organisations will operate almost entirely on a single planet, even after FTL drives are commonplace.

[Zen001]

I wrote a little about resources in an old thread. I agree resources should not be perfectly evenly spread as that's kind of dull and makes it hard for neighbouring empires to form trade agreements.

 

You also need to avoid the opposite problem of all of one particular resource being in one area, and one empire gaining an incredibly strong hold on that location, dominating and monopolising that resource. This is especially a problem if the resource is extremely valuable and rare. However, I don't think this will happen in DU as resources will not be respawned.

 

I think I agree with Devis that it should be random, but natural. In the procedural generation there should be algorithms that tend some resources to cluster, others more even, etc.

 

I agree with vylqun about how long it is likely to take to spread to other planets. Several months after launch is the rough estimate we have for the first players reaching orbit. The impression I have is that it won't just be a matter of training an Eve style skill. It will require huge amounts of resourcing, crafting, designing, and building to get something that works.

 

Plus remember that the planets are huge. Up to 100km radius is the figure we have for the largest planets. That's 126,000km2 surface area, around 50,000 hexes! That is a lot of real estate. Planets won't be owned be single empires. More likely, when an organisation "colonises" a planet they'll claim one or two tiles, and so will a hundred other organisations, and the planet will still be largely untouched.

 

Its cool thinking about interplanetary, or even interstellar empires, but I imagine many organisations will operate almost entirely on a single planet, even after FTL drives are commonplace.

To be honest, little concerned about the skills required in DU. Having lived through long years of ques in EVE and seeing them slowly but gradually be fazed out because players prefer to play the game instead of wait, I think this may not necessarily be a good idea. In fact, the only reason I can see adding skill training is to give DEVs more time to finish their game. Also not respawning resources could be a pandora's box; it could end up forcing players to constantly pick up and move, which ends up being yet another 'space trucker'. And some players, many in fact, prefer staying put - regularly moving in search of resources will make the game less appealing. Of course if it is done right then it could work. And when I mean right, not go through hell of packing and unpacking ships, removing rigs and numerous trips like EVE. If moving could be made relatively easy and straightforward, more focused on piloting than packing, then I can see no respawns for resources working. Still, even if players only need to pack all their stuff in one super massive freighter and only require a single one way trip, that one way trip would still have to be limited to once or twice a year. This is also because many players simply don't like moving and get attached to systems/locations. 

 

And sure 100km radius for a planet is encouraging but compared to Battlescape's earth size planet, 6,371? Which pales next to the gas planet? Well, different game and goals I suppose. But it's a start. 

[DevisDevine]

To be honest, little concerned about the skills required in DU. Having lived through long years of ques in EVE and seeing them slowly but gradually be fazed out because players prefer to play the game instead of wait, I think this may not necessarily be a good idea. In fact, the only reason I can see adding skill training is to give DEVs more time to finish their game. Also not respawning resources could be a pandora's box; it could end up forcing players to constantly pick up and move, which ends up being yet another 'space trucker'. And some players, many in fact, prefer staying put - regularly moving in search of resources will make the game less appealing. Of course if it is done right then it could work. And when I mean right, not go through hell of packing and unpacking ships, removing rigs and numerous trips like EVE. If moving could be made relatively easy and straightforward, more focused on piloting than packing, then I can see no respawns for resources working. Still, even if players only need to pack all their stuff in one super massive freighter and only require a single one way trip, that one way trip would still have to be limited to once or twice a year. This is also because many players simply don't like moving and get attached to systems/locations. 

 

And sure 100km radius for a planet is encouraging but compared to Battlescape's earth size planet, 6,371? Which pales next to the gas planet? Well, different game and goals I suppose. But it's a start. 

 

 

I recall a post discussing there not being much in the way of restrictions on what you can do in the game right off, but the skills being more of an efficiency/improvement on what you can do. This may be in the sense of things like mining and repairing, but I took it to mean crafting as well. I agree with you on the long skill que problems, 2 years to fly some of the big guys seemed impossible to some players.

Although I would expect to see some skills needed to make the more advanced things, but they shouldn't be setup so it forces you to train for months on end. I hope the limiting factor is setup to be infrastructure more than anything. We know the nanoformer is limited, but with it they mention making things to create more advanced structures. So maybe it requires an advanced factory to put together everything involved in an FTL drive, and for that you have to make a basic, then an improved factory. Each able to make a few more components, that in tern are used in crafting more advanced components. 

 

As far as packing and unpacking, I fully expect to be able to setup any factories or equipment on a ship as well as in a building, so you could have a mobile factory that goes out and refines material at a mining site. All the while your base could either be mobile or just a city somewhere, and have resources imported. As I stated, I expect resources to be vast, but depletable. Lets say theres a star system not far from Alioth that an empire settles in and becomes a major trade hub. When the local resources are depleted (something i expect to be on the order of a year to do) they could be shipped in from neighboring system, and slowly spread out, all the while the city can remain. Afterall once you establish a trade hub people will bring in things from further out just to sell their goods quicker. Eventually groups will place stargates leading to the system so they can get there quicker from their pace. 

 

Now massive alliances will run into this scenario, but I believe smaller groups will begin to spread out and claim a system of their own. Afterall in an infinite universe why fight over the resources, not at first. Not until closeness to an empire becomes an issue, I want your system because I dont want to move my city and we are out of resources. The mall groups not settled much can move on. I think the battles will be driven for the fun of it rather than resources. Or just to piss off another group you dont like. Look at games like starmade, theres plenty of room compared to the few players on a given server. They can completly avoid eachother and still have resources but fights still happen. 

[KlatuSatori]

While the game universe can be expanded indefinitely, it's not infinite, or at least shouldn't be, in a practical sense.  Taking the first six months after launch as an example again, no one will be able to expand beyond the starting planet, so essentially the universe will be a single planet for practical purposes.  Even then, right at launch, getting to the other side of the planet should not be something you enter into lightly.  Maybe it takes a month to build a vehicle that's fast enough to circumnavigate the globe in 5-10 hours.  Once building practices are established it becomes easier.  This progressive improvement should sit hand in hand with the expansion of inhabited areas and the expansion of the active player base.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't want to see resources becoming a non-issue in terms of warfare.  There are lots of reasons entities will fight - just for the fun of it being one - but the most interesting are over things like resources.  The fighting is all the more meaningful and fierce if it is over something that matters.  I think this is another point for the OP - resources should not be too evenly spread out such that you never need to fight over valuable territory.

 

At the same time, a determined group of people willing to explore beyond inhabited space for weeks, or even months, should be able to do so as well.  I think this is the advantage of a procedurally generated universe.  If a group of players can't get established because they lost an important war or can't get a foot in the door, they can find somewhere else to set up, as long as they are determined.

 

So I think a balance needs to be found between scarcity, abundance, and distribution of resources.  It's a very sensitive area and the algorithms used to generate the universe need to be finely tuned.  Not an easy job but I've got faith in NQ to get it right