Stargates: Functionality?

[yamamushi]

and again: why does that whole concept need explicitly traversable hyperspace?

as in "i have to pilot my ship through there"

 

most ships have to use gates with or without hyperspace

 

 

The issue isn't that stargates need hyperspace, it's that we would like to see some sort of hyperspace mechanic implemented in stargates, rather than just entering them and reappearing instantly on the other side.

 

I brought up the topic and reasoning here, https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/717-the-hyperspace-mechanics-of-stargate-travel/ . The thread also discusses the gameplay value it would add, but I won't copy and paste it all here. 

[Fitorion]

and again: why does that whole concept need explicitly traversable hyperspace?

as in "i have to pilot my ship through there"

 

most ships have to use gates with or without hyperspace

 

ships with a "hole puncher" can jump anywhere into space with or without hyperspace

either by flying there in HS and then jumping out, or just *poof*ing there from a starting point

 

if you can do a precise jump to a position you can agree on one beforehand, so meeting up close to the target is no problem.

and you have to transmit data either way, for the ships waiting in HS or the ships waiting somewhere else, doesnt matter.

 

i read your suggestion, you dont have to repeat that i can read it  

 

 

Making explicitly traversable Allows for:

 

Hazards during travel. 

Travel to take a nominal amount of time.  Which further allows players in some of the possible systems on the other end to be contacted and be on the look out for you if you did something they didn't like.

Combat to occur... however risky and rare such a thing would be in the dangerous and sensor confusing hyperspace.

Functions as a galactic map of the locally explored space. 

Limits the extent of the exploration mechanic... as you can only go so far from the region with active gates lest you lose their signals and get lost.  While making exploration possible with out long boring months of travel.

[KingofPR]

I watched the whole babylon 5 show with my dad,even the movies xD

[Fitorion]

I watched the whole babylon 5 show with my dad,even the movies xD

 

It's a great show.  Before its time.  Very well thought out mechanics to how its universe works.  I'd love if some it manages to influence this game.

[Cornflakes]

Hazards during travel. 

 

[...]

 

Functions as a galactic map of the locally explored space. 

 

 

Limits the extent of the exploration mechanic... as you can only go so far from the region with active gates lest you lose their signals and get lost.  While making exploration possible with out long boring months of travel.

 

i think navigational hazards would be better placed in normal space where they always matter :shrug: 

 

you dont see the next system over without there being a beacon, so how would it work as a map?

 

it wouldnt really limit the extent, just the speed at which it happens outside the beacon range.

with space being continous i can align to my target star, jump to HS, fly a while straight ahead, jump back out, realign and jump back to HS.

getting ever closer to my goal with every jump.

its tedious, but possible.

[Traceur]

As much as I love almost all things babylon5, the decision for the developers should depend less on the rule of cool and more on what kind of gameplay they want to facilitate. A system where FTL is a large heavyweight endeavor requiring large wormholes or expensive ships means that traveling to other star systems is more about colonization and expansion as a group then it is about exploration and discovery. It would also enable a more stable PvP environment by creating bottlenecks (stargates) and requiring the defense of large FTL capable carriers, making it easier to defend an area then it is to assault an area, which in turn encourages players to invest in an area and build it up rather then just going system to system. In a game where the majority of the content planned is player made content, that actually makes a lot of sense.

[Fitorion]

i think navigational hazards would be better placed in normal space where they always matter :shrug: 

 

you dont see the next system over without there being a beacon, so how would it work as a map?

 

it wouldnt really limit the extent, just the speed at which it happens outside the beacon range.

with space being continous i can align to my target star, jump to HS, fly a while straight ahead, jump back out, realign and jump back to HS.

getting ever closer to my goal with every jump.

its tedious, but possible.

 

There will be small scale navigational hazards in real space as well... that's a given.  But with a months long(irl) voyage in normal space to reach another star system... hazards would have to be huge or near constant...  Space is supposed to be empty...

 

Everywhere there's a beacon is populated... it's a map of the populated area.

 

Hyperspace is disorienting... there's chaotic currents... and without the reference points from the beacons combined with starcharts plotting where stars and planets should be... taken from observatories in real space (just like we are starting to get in real life)  you could jump out directly into the surface of a planet or star...

 

But yes if you wanted too you could enter hyperspace... travel until you have lost the beacons... then wander aimlessly until you're nearly out of fuel and have to jump out... and hope you aren't jumping out into something... or jumping out between systems because then you're also screwed.

 

There's no jump, move, drop out... repeat... No ship has the power... fuel... or sensors... needed to achieve such a thing.

[Traceur]

There will be small scale navigational hazards in real space as well... that's a given.  But with a months long(irl) voyage in normal space to reach another star system... hazards would have to be huge or near constant...  Space is supposed to be empty...

 

Everywhere there's a beacon is populated... it's a map of the populated area.

 

Hyperspace is disorienting... there's chaotic currents... and without the reference points from the beacons combined with starcharts plotting where stars and planets should be... taken from observatories in real space (just like we are starting to get in real life)  you could jump out directly into the surface of a planet or star...

 

But yes if you wanted too you could enter hyperspace... travel until you have lost the beacons... then wander aimlessly until you're nearly out of fuel and have to jump out... and hope you aren't jumping out into something... or jumping out between systems because then you're also screwed.

 

There's no jump, move, drop out... repeat... No ship has the power... fuel... or sensors... needed to achieve such a thing.

 

I get what you are saying about the seamless transition offered by hyperspace when compared to jumpdrives as the main alternative. But wouldn't straight up wormholes be even more seamless?

[Fitorion]

I get what you are saying about the seamless transition offered by hyperspace when compared to jumpdrives as the main alternative. But wouldn't straight up wormholes be even more seamless?

 

Wormholes are point to point.  You can only go one place... where the wormhole is connected.

 

If you do a Stargate (as in the TV series) style where you generate the wormhole just before you use it and at that time choose it's exit point... a record is made of that travel to only one place... Which means there's no mystery... no evasion of pursuers really possible.

 

Travel through them is traditionally instantaneous and an individual experience though there are ways to make them take time and be a group activity... which is better.

 

But doing that still leaves us with the problem of exploration and how you travel to somewhere unknown... without a gate. 

 

In the hyperspace model I'm advocating... it's math... and an expensive jump engine equipped ship.  To be able to explore systems within a certain distance of a system with a gate. 

 

In the various wormhole type stargate models that have been discussed and the Devs have described... it's a month or more of waiting for a probe to arrive traveling in real space so it can build a device there for you to travel there.

 

1 month to wait to explore 1 system?  Or 10-15 minutes or less with the Babylon 5 style hyperspace system?  In the B5 system every time a new gate was built there'd be a bunch of new systems to explore. 

[Traceur]

Wormholes are point to point.  You can only go one place... where the wormhole is connected.

 

If you do a Stargate (as in the TV series) style where you generate the wormhole just before you use it and at that time choose it's exit point... a record is made of that travel to only one place... Which means there's no mystery... no evasion of pursuers really possible.

 

 

Or it could be a continues system - each set of wormholes are activated in pairs, you'd be navigating between wormholes within a system, the space explored would be the system and everything the players built within it. Some factions might try to create a large nexus, in other cases you might need to travel between the wormhole orbiting one planet to the one orbiting another, possibly dealing with two different factions.

 

You wouldn't be able to use it to run out of PvP but you can use it as PvP choke points. You can pursue - assuming you can survive what's on the other side - or you can evade - if there's something on the other side the pursuers can't survive.

 

 

 

But doing that still leaves us with the problem of exploration and how you travel to somewhere unknown... without a gate. 

 

 

We have the other current-theoretical-physics-sanctioned FTL, the Alcubierre warp drive, whose advantages as a gameplay feature I talked about here.

[Cornflakes]

But yes if you wanted too you could enter hyperspace... travel until you have lost the beacons... then wander aimlessly until you're nearly out of fuel and have to jump out... and hope you aren't jumping out into something... or jumping out between systems because then you're also screwed.

 

There's no jump, move, drop out... repeat... No ship has the power... fuel... or sensors... needed to achieve such a thing.

Why should i be instantly disoriented when i enter hyperspace?

 

Why wouldnt i be able to use other things as reference points than stargates?

 

What prevents ships from carrying a beacon?

 

And why shouldnt i be able to build a ship that consists mostly out of fuel?

an early game "huge" ship, the first ships with hyperdrive capabilities will probably be pretty small compared to later game ships, so what prevents me from plopping in and out?

And even if its wasteful to jump the mothership in and out, i can just open a gate and plop out a shuttle

 

and what kind of sensors would i need? Mk1 mod0 eyeballs are suffecient for spotting stars over interstellar distances.

 

And the likelyhood to accidentally hit a planetary or solar body over interstellar distances is about as high as me winning lotto a couple of times in a row with the same numbers.

Planets and stars are small, space is big.

[Fitorion]

Why should i be instantly disoriented when i enter hyperspace?

 

Why wouldnt i be able to use other things as reference points than stargates?

 

What prevents ships from carrying a beacon?

 

And why shouldnt i be able to build a ship that consists mostly out of fuel?

an early game "huge" ship, the first ships with hyperdrive capabilities will probably be pretty small compared to later game ships, so what prevents me from plopping in and out?

And even if its wasteful to jump the mothership in and out, i can just open a gate and plop out a shuttle

 

and what kind of sensors would i need? Mk1 mod0 eyeballs are suffecient for spotting stars over interstellar distances.

 

And the likelyhood to accidentally hit a planetary or solar body over interstellar distances is about as high as me winning lotto a couple of times in a row with the same numbers.

Planets and stars are small, space is big.

 

There are no landmarks in Hyperspace.  It's constantly shifting visually and has chaotic currents.  Without the beacons from the stationary Jumpgates there is no way to tell where you are in relation to real space. Sensor range is severally limited ... even visually... you can't even see other ships once they get a little ways away.  Like flying through a dense fog.  Go too far and you can't detected the signals from the gates anymore and you're utterly lost.

 

The Jumpgate Is a fixed point and thus its beacon provides a landmark.  Carrying a beacon with you is absolutely pointless and makes zero sense.  Since you're moving it has zero function.

 

You can build a ship made mostly of fuel.  But no amount will help you navigate a featureless expanse with currents that push you and turn you every which way without your knowledge.

 

Lets say you try this jump... fly... jump... check position plan.

 

You use your sensors and see where you are in real space and point yourself in the direction you want to go.

You jump into hyperspace (for this example you're out of range of the gates) and immediately your ship is being pushed around and turned with out any visual indication of that to your eyes or sensors. 

You fly for a while then jump back out to real space. 

Not knowing where you are when you jumped means you are taking a risk that you're jumping back directly into something or within something... but most of space is empty so chances are you emerge somewhere between systems.

You check your position... Oh look you've made no progress toward your goal.  In fact you're some random place... not as far from your starting point as you thought you should be... like you were flying circles in hyperspace rather than a straight line. Because you were.

 

Repeat until you're out of fuel... and starve to death in the vast emptiness.

 

 

Now if you're in the range of the gates... you can match up their position with what you know of where the stars and planets are in real space and use that to navigate.  You can have a computer to do the math to locate the position in hyperspace you need to be to emerge at an unexplored system because you have the fixed points to use as reference. 

 

 

Building jumpgates opens more systems to exploration.  It allows much cheaper ships without jump engines to go through them and travel to other systems.  Jump engines are expensive and require lots of energy to use... so are limited to ships big enough to house the power plants to utilize them.  Which mean military's invest in few of them and have smaller craft dock to them... or fighters in a carrier type situation.  Or one ship letting the fleet flying in formation in and out.  

 

 

About size of ships... the opposite should be true.  As technology progresses the size of the power plant needed to generate the energy to run a jump engine should get smaller... allowing for smaller ships to have them.  The first jump drive equipped ships should be stupidly.... ludicrously large. 

 

 

People with smaller ships could charter some groups large jump engine equipped ship to carry them... or fly in formation with them to a gateless system and either stay there to take them back... or return at a designated time to take them back.

[Cornflakes]

You dont have to explain your whole concept every time you answer me.

 

How would the random twisting and turning affect it if i fly with a couple of ships, giving each other reference points from a large a distance as possible. With any kind of transmitter or locator beacon.

The precision would go up the more ships are in the formation, as ever larger scale disturbances getting filtered out.

without many ships in the formation actually needing jump drives.

 

 

And i agree that the first jump drive ship would be very large for its time, with a primitive jumpdrive and assorted parapharnelia filling its hull without many extras.

But it would still be limited in size because it will be relatively early in the game and ships will be expensive.

Later in the game the payload fraction of ships would increase due to better drives being used and the ships would be larger due to more resources becoming available for building ships.

 

 

 

Also, may i suggest an alternative to the B5 style jumpdrives?

 

Maybe gates can transport ships to a target system in their range without a receiving gate.

These "unbound" jumps take more complex/expensive/energy hungry gate mechanisms but can get you to a point at the periphery of any system thats in their range and doesnt have a gate. (If theres already an active gate in the system, you appear there instead of somewhere in the syste)

But it cant get you back from there, thats what ship bound jumpdrives are for.

 

Ship bound jumpdrives can get your ship to any gate inside its jump range (or maybe to a predefined gate which you have to chose while near the gate in question, maybe just defaulting to the last gate used for an unbound jump)

 

when you are in the target system you can then decide to build another gate for a stable jump connection or to jump back to your point of origin.

 

This way it would do a lot of the things you are trying to do:

The gates limit the range of expansion.

Ships with on board jumpdrives would be best suited for exploration.

 

It would also enable players with small budgets to "hide" on some planet in jump range with any size of ship, but they couldnt get back without building a jumpdrive/gate or calling for some ship with jump capabilities.

 

Ships without jumpdrives can freely travel between gates, ships with drives can travel "freely" in range of special gates.

 

That way around it would also make the first communally built jumpgate a big boost for exploration as people then can explore all the systems in range fast instead of having to compete for the flight time of the one ship with a jumpdrive.

[Fitorion]

You dont have to explain your whole concept every time you answer me.

 

How would the random twisting and turning affect it if i fly with a couple of ships, giving each other reference points from a large a distance as possible. With any kind of transmitter or locator beacon.

The precision would go up the more ships are in the formation, as ever larger scale disturbances getting filtered out.

without many ships in the formation actually needing jump drives.

 

 

And i agree that the first jump drive ship would be very large for its time, with a primitive jumpdrive and assorted parapharnelia filling its hull without many extras.

But it would still be limited in size because it will be relatively early in the game and ships will be expensive.

Later in the game the payload fraction of ships would increase due to better drives being used and the ships would be larger due to more resources becoming available for building ships.

 

 

 

Also, may i suggest an alternative to the B5 style jumpdrives?

 

Maybe gates can transport ships to a target system in their range without a receiving gate.

These "unbound" jumps take more complex/expensive/energy hungry gate mechanisms but can get you to a point at the periphery of any system thats in their range and doesnt have a gate. (If theres already an active gate in the system, you appear there instead of somewhere in the syste)

But it cant get you back from there, thats what ship bound jumpdrives are for.

 

Ship bound jumpdrives can get your ship to any gate inside its jump range (or maybe to a predefined gate which you have to chose while near the gate in question, maybe just defaulting to the last gate used for an unbound jump)

 

when you are in the target system you can then decide to build another gate for a stable jump connection or to jump back to your point of origin.

 

This way it would do a lot of the things you are trying to do:

The gates limit the range of expansion.

Ships with on board jumpdrives would be best suited for exploration.

 

It would also enable players with small budgets to "hide" on some planet in jump range with any size of ship, but they couldnt get back without building a jumpdrive/gate or calling for some ship with jump capabilities.

 

Ships without jumpdrives can freely travel between gates, ships with drives can travel "freely" in range of special gates.

 

That way around it would also make the first communally built jumpgate a big boost for exploration as people then can explore all the systems in range fast instead of having to compete for the flight time of the one ship with a jumpdrive.

 

I apparently do... since you're asking about things already explained... I don't expect everyone to have seen Babylon 5 and I don't think I am necessarily the best at describing it... So explaining things over again in hopefully a more clear way when ever anyone asks a question I thought was already answered... is all I can do.

 

That would have to be balanced.  The Devs want to slow the expansion.  So to prevent such things they could increase the sensor dampening effects of hyperspace.  Meaning ships can't get too far from each other.  But to a certain extent a chain of ships using each other as a reference point would be possible.  They use this very method on the show to find and save a ship who's communication system was damaged... that caused them to no longer be able to detect the beacons.  B5 sent in a flight of fighters and used each other as reference to dangle a line out there and hopefully get close enough for the lost ship for it to detect the fighter craft using their other working sensors.  And it's a risky maneuver... if any link in the chain strays too far a whole section could be lost.

 

 

 

In your system would travel be instant?  Would traveling large distances require multiple jumps?  Preventing "fly over" systems and creating trade posts?   What's wrong with competition?  Just how many people do you think will be exploring?

 

There's a lot of infrastructure that need to be built and run by people... and not very much is automated.  If an outpost has materials to sell it's because a player mined it somewhere and sold it to someone... who put it on their freighter and flew it out there to sell at a profit.  The materials could have passed through several players hands to end up their for sale.  Point is... most of the population of the game should not be out... alone... exploring.  They should be... being involved in the player politics and profitable niches to be exploited in the populated systems. 

 

What ever system they make needs to keep old settlements important and useful.  Needs to provide exploration opportunities in a way that lets civilization build up and not expand too fast... and yet have the dedicated explorers among us be occupied with that activity without much down time.  Needs to provide interesting combat opportunities and tactics... choke points... regularly traveled routes... places to hide... ways to evade... ways to follow.  Needs to allow the vast majority of people with cheap ships to travel around and see the universe and find their niche. 

 

I think the B5 system does all that.  I think there certainly can be other systems ... I just think this is the best. 

[Cornflakes]

I'd make the jumps themself instant, or not very long at least. Just flying around empty (hyper)space isnt much fun or interesting usually.

 

My variation of gates would strongly encourage trade hubs. As the gate stations from which hyperdrive using ships would depart and arrive would be comparatively rare and would have to be visited often.

Competition itself isnt bad, i'd just prefer basic exploration to be easily accessible for many players.

Not having them bound to the home system while the rich powerplayers are already out and exploring with their hyperdrive ship.

 

i suspect quite a large portion of the playerbase will be out and exploring and prospecting. Games with Procedural universes tend to attract explorers to my knowledge.

 

I think my system can provide the things you list there.

Stargates would always be choke points, as ships with or without jumpdrives have to use them.

The connections between gates would constitute the regularily traveled routes, as all ships have to hop between them.

you can hide yourself in any system in range of an unbound-jump-capable gate, but you'd have to stay hidden in that system unless another gate is in jumpdrive range for you to escape to. And you can hide well without necessarily requiring a jump drive capable ship as well.

 

 

I also wasnt thinking of using a line of ships to the next beacon, but a self-stabilising net of ships which use the relative position data of all the other ships to calculate and counteract the hyperspace flux.

Such a formation could start on a known course from a gate beacon and fly somewhat reliably in the right direction of a target.

The distance left to the destination may not be reliably calculable, but that can be supplemented with occasional probing jumps of single ships out of hyperspace.

It wouldnt give you pinpoint accuracy over long distances but for reaching star systems it should work.

[Fitorion]

One of the things I like about Hyperspace is you can gather a fleet there... and jump out into the system from multiple different places.  But it requires fuel to maintain your position and fly through it so you can't stay there forever. 

 

At some point you have to jump back to normal space and be seen. 

 

One tactic in battle could be to jump into hyperspace and then back out so you're now attacking from a different direction. (only really possible for ships with power to spare... highest tech levels)

 

I think interstellar travel should take a nominal amount of time.  And be at least a little hazardous... hazards which you can avoid doing normal things... and hazards that get hard to avoid when trying to do something novel... But the novel thing should be possible if you get lucky/do it just right.

 

With hyperspace someone could be going any of a number of places once they jump and it'll take a little time for them to get there.  This gives the pursuers time to notify friends in other systems to be on the look out for them.

 

It does mean that the farthest reaches of space are the provence of large groups who can get the crew and funds together to have jump engine equipped ships... and that the small guys have to explore the closer in places.  But it doesn't mean that prospecting and exploration will only be for the power players or that people will be bound to the home system.  Quite the contrary.  It enables anyone with the cheapest space capable ship to traverse the known areas and reach the frontier where a new gate has only just been built in short order. There the detailed mapping of resources of all the planets and asteroid fields in that system who have only had cursory surveys done will be needed.  There fuel depots will need to be made where the exploration ships come back to... to resupply.  Where small time players could join an expedition as another survey ship when the exploration ship heads out.

 

 

 

The B5 system is dependent on the organization functions of the game actually working...  That people actually interact with each other to create the story of the universe... It isn't suited to the lone wanderer...

[Cornflakes]

Erm... how would non-power-players get to explore new areas? They can only access systems with gates, and nobody in his right mind would go through the effort and expense to build a gate in a system he doesnt know its worth building a gate.

So any gated system would be thoroughly mapped and prospected before the gate was built.

So cutting off non power players from exploration and seeing new worlds is what you want? That does sound frustrating for exactly the kind of player who usually does most of the flying around and exploring in games, the lone wolf without huge resources.

 

And how does your system create choke points or encourage trade posts?

People mostly fly around between gates as they want or even just directly to where they want to be with a hyperdrive.

With range restrictions, yes, but still pretty much "fly around as you want".

And for organised military actions are very few things that would force people to coalesce.

Fleets would pop up whereever they want with their hyperdrives.

Because they have no reason to go through anywhere where they could be intercepted.

They start in some nearby system, fly through hyperspace directly to their target pop out their portal destroy what ever they were there for and jump out again before any reaction force could arrive.

Not much of a defendable choke point there.

 

With my system there are always choke points, either the gates or the limited fixed arrival points from the next unbound gate

 

You also may look up the meanings of the words you use, to prevent contradicting yourself

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nominal

[Fitorion]

Erm... how would non-power-players get to explore new areas? They can only access systems with gates, and nobody in his right mind would go through the effort and expense to build a gate in a system he doesnt know its worth building a gate.

So any gated system would be thoroughly mapped and prospected before the gate was built.

So cutting off non power players from exploration and seeing new worlds is what you want? That does sound frustrating for exactly the kind of player who usually does most of the flying around and exploring in games, the lone wolf without huge resources.

 

And how does your system create choke points or encourage trade posts?

People mostly fly around between gates as they want or even just directly to where they want to be with a hyperdrive.

With range restrictions, yes, but still pretty much "fly around as you want".

And for organised military actions are very few things that would force people to coalesce.

Fleets would pop up whereever they want with their hyperdrives.

Because they have no reason to go through anywhere where they could be intercepted.

They start in some nearby system, fly through hyperspace directly to their target pop out their portal destroy what ever they were there for and jump out again before any reaction force could arrive.

Not much of a defendable choke point there.

 

With my system there are always choke points, either the gates or the limited fixed arrival points from the next unbound gate

 

You also may look up the meanings of the words you use, to prevent contradicting yourself

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nominal

 

 

Level of detail.  You can tell only so much from orbit. 

 

With every gate built a whole swath of new systems will be accessible to a ship with a jump engine... and so demand for small contractors to join up on an expedition... So that a bunch of ships can spread out in a system and do the cursory orbital scans to find out what resources are there and roughly how much.  Finding out exactly how much and where it's concentrated is a job for later... 

 

 

By virtue of it taking fuel to travel through hyperspace or even hold position within... you in your small ship which 90% of people have can only get to a few with out risking running out of fuel while in hyperspace and being swept away to oblivion.

 

So... any trip across the know areas involves several hops in and out of hyperspace and a stop to refuel.   And if you're stopping anyway... might as well sell some stuff... buy some stuff... check out that local flavor... you know trade.

 

Jump engines take a lot of energy... that isn't free.  How they deal with the cost could be done in several different ways.  Make it cost fuel to run the generator... or a different rare element... whatever.  Point is you use the gates most of the time even if you have jump engines.   Even during combat operations... if you can use the gate you probably want to use the gate... 

 

Why?  because then you didn't have to power down your weapons to exit hyperspace... You won't be jumping in and out willy nilly with out a care... You will be having to make hard decisions about power management and whether you can afford a short weapons down time... or survive long enough for your jump engines to be charged back up enough for you to escape back to hyperspace.  

 

And any place worth destroying should have ground... orbital... and crewed defensive ships around it ready and waiting for attacks.  That's what militaries do... they hang out guarding valuable places.  If your installation couldn't hold out long enough for reinforcements to arrive... you didn't have it guarded well enough.  Or your forces were drawn off by a diversionary attack which you fell for.

[Darius Sanguna]

@Cornflakes you have forgotten that there will be at least one more FTL-drive besides of the jumpgates/stargates that could be used for exploration, this would be much slower than jumpgates, but achievable by all players.

The whole point of DU is that you're getting capabilities equal to your resources, so if you want to travel fast you must join a organization or there must be a organization that allows singleplayers to use their infrastructure, just like in real life or are you building highways for yourself?

And in case that there is no infrastructure, even large organizations must go with the slower FTL-drive.

[Cornflakes]

@Cornflakes you have forgotten that there will be at least one more FTL-drive besides of the jumpgates/stargates that could be used for exploration, this would be much slower than jumpgates, but achievable by all players.

The whole point of DU is that you're getting capabilities equal to your resources, so if you want to travel fast you must join a organization or there must be a organization that allows singleplayers to use their infrastructure, just like in real life or are you building highways for yourself?

And in case that there is no infrastructure, even large organizations must go with the slower FTL-drive.

 

which is not true in the system Fitorion is suggesting and he and i are discussing

 

i've also never talked to a gamer who enjoys exploring who doesnt dislike having to deal with players for his primary occupation, exploring.

thats why i was suggesting that gates are essentially FTL ship cannons that can get you there but not back.

so every gate construction would cause a new boom of very small scale exploration to occur in its range.

people would have to organise to get back to civilisation, but they can follow their favourite pastime without having to deal with flying with other people.

 

 

 

Level of detail.  You can tell only so much from orbit. 

 

With every gate built a whole swath of new systems will be accessible to a ship with a jump engine... and so demand for small contractors to join up on an expedition... So that a bunch of ships can spread out in a system and do the cursory orbital scans to find out what resources are there and roughly how much.  Finding out exactly how much and where it's concentrated is a job for later... 

 

 

By virtue of it taking fuel to travel through hyperspace or even hold position within... you in your small ship which 90% of people have can only get to a few with out risking running out of fuel while in hyperspace and being swept away to oblivion.

 

So... any trip across the know areas involves several hops in and out of hyperspace and a stop to refuel.   And if you're stopping anyway... might as well sell some stuff... buy some stuff... check out that local flavor... you know trade.

 

Jump engines take a lot of energy... that isn't free.  How they deal with the cost could be done in several different ways.  Make it cost fuel to run the generator... or a different rare element... whatever.  Point is you use the gates most of the time even if you have jump engines.   Even during combat operations... if you can use the gate you probably want to use the gate... 

 

Why?  because then you didn't have to power down your weapons to exit hyperspace... You won't be jumping in and out willy nilly with out a care... You will be having to make hard decisions about power management and whether you can afford a short weapons down time... or survive long enough for your jump engines to be charged back up enough for you to escape back to hyperspace.  

 

And any place worth destroying should have ground... orbital... and crewed defensive ships around it ready and waiting for attacks.  That's what militaries do... they hang out guarding valuable places.  If your installation couldn't hold out long enough for reinforcements to arrive... you didn't have it guarded well enough.  Or your forces were drawn off by a diversionary attack which you fell for.

 

 

and what has the fact that you cant scan everything from orbit to do with that systems with gates will be prospected before theres a gate built?

a system has to be worth the effort to build a gate there, and i doubt that anyone with any kind of economic sense builds a gate after only a cursory glance at the system.

so any system with a gate will be boring as hell for any explorer.

 

and why should i use the jump engines of my combat craft to get in/out of HS?

take a mothership along that acts as a mobile gate and jump the actual combat ships through with help of the mothership.

you know, like they did with the fighters in B5.

and with all kinds of ships being buildable, i doubt that that tactic wont be used.

with all that it takes is coordination.

 

and i didnt assume that important locations would be completely undefended, but the attacker has a huuuuuge advantage because he can pop out anywhere without the defender being able to notice him beforehand and attack with concentrated forces.

whereas the defender has to spread himself over all his assets.

the attacker will always have a concentrated force with jump-out-anywhere drives.

no choke points there.

[Darius Sanguna]

which is not true in the system Fitorion is suggesting and he and i are discussing

No that is only what you are assuming, at the begin of this topic it was clear that the devs will implement 3 main propulsion types, sub-light , FTL and Stargates and this topic is for the discussion regarding stargate functionality and i think Fitorion knows that and because of that he assumed probably that you also know it. So why should he point something out, if he is thinking that it is clear to all?

 

i've also never talked to a gamer who enjoys exploring who doesnt dislike having to deal with players for his primary occupation, exploring.

thats why i was suggesting that gates are essentially FTL ship cannons that can get you there but not back.

so every gate construction would cause a new boom of very small scale exploration to occur in its range.

people would have to organise to get back to civilisation, but they can follow their favourite pastime without having to deal with flying with other people.

 

Yes i get that you are going for a catapult-system, but we could modify the B5 system to allow single-use jumpengines for smaller ships, and with such an expansion you would have your one-way-system. So you could theoratically send a probe with hyperspace beacon trough normal space to your desired destination, this probe would probably travel for several months till it has reached its target. After the arrival of your probe at its destination, you could use a jumpgate to get into hyperspace, travel for 5 minutes or so, till you have reached your the signal of your probe and use your single-use jumpengine to get out of hyperspace.

 

and why should i use the jump engines of my combat craft to get in/out of HS?

take a mothership along that acts as a mobile gate and jump the actual combat ships through with help of the mothership.

you know, like they did with the fighters in B5.

and with all kinds of ships being buildable, i doubt that that tactic wont be used.

with all that it takes is coordination.

 Your combat craft will not have jumpengines only the biggest ships (crews with hundreds or even thousands of people) in a fleet will have jumpengines, that what you have descriped is the whole point of fleet operations with jumpengines. If you want to use the jumpengine of your mothership in a combat situation, you will need a escort fleet or you are space dust.

 

and i didnt assume that important locations would be completely undefended, but the attacker has a huuuuuge advantage because he can pop out anywhere without the defender being able to notice him beforehand and attack with concentrated forces.

whereas the defender has to spread himself over all his assets.

the attacker will always have a concentrated force with jump-out-anywhere drives.

no choke points there.

You don't need choke points, you need counter measures for such a scenario, for example sensor probes in HS. But you will probably get choke points, because even the biggest factions could probably only maintain 2 or 3 motherships with jumpengines.

[KlatuSatori]

I really dislike this idea of making large ships incredibly fast. It is the antithesis of balanced gameplay.

[Darius Sanguna]

I really dislike this idea of making large ships incredibly fast. It is the antithesis of balanced gameplay.

Hyperspace is an extra dimension where the distances are shorter, but the engine capabilities of your ship will still dictate your maximum acceleration, even in hyperspace.

The only advantage that the large ships will have is that they are also jumpgates.

An example:

You want from System-A to Point-C in System-B, but Point-C is on the opposite site of the system, seen from the jumpgate in System-B.

So first you take your small exploration ship and you are using the jumpgate in A, the travel from A to B in hyperspace takes 5 minutes and then you use the jumpgate to get out of the HS, from now one you are using your FTL-Drive and it takes 10 minutes for you from the jumpgate to C, so your travel time is 15 minutes.

Now your are taking your big jump-capable mothership and you are using again the jumpgate in A to save resources, but instead of going to the jumpgate in B you are taking the direct route to C in hyperspace and it takes you 45 minutes, as you arrive at C you are jumping out of hyperspace, but it costs resources, your weapons are offline and your defenses are at minimum, because off the amount of energy it takes to jump.

So all in all with the small ship you have traveled 15 minutes, including a detour.

With mothership it has taken 45 minutes, even with the direct route and after the jump your ship is also for at least 10 minutes vulnerable to attacks.

[KlatuSatori]

Hyperspace is an extra dimension where the distances are shorter, but the engine capabilities of your ship will still dictate your maximum acceleration, even in hyperspace.

The only advantage that the large ships will have is that they are also jumpgates.

An example:

You want from System-A to Point-C in System-B, but Point-C is on the opposite site of the system, seen from the jumpgate in System-B.

So first you take your small exploration ship and you are using the jumpgate in A, the travel from A to B in hyperspace takes 5 minutes and then you use the jumpgate to get out of the HS, from now one you are using your FTL-Drive and it takes 10 minutes for you from the jumpgate to C, so your travel time is 15 minutes.

Now your are taking your big jump-capable mothership and you are using again the jumpgate in A to save resources, but instead of going to the jumpgate in B you are taking the direct route to C in hyperspace and it takes you 45 minutes, as you arrive at C you are jumping out of hyperspace, but it costs resources, your weapons are offline and your defenses are at minimum, because off the amount of energy it takes to jump.

So all in all with the small ship you have traveled 15 minutes, including a detour.

With mothership it has taken 45 minutes, even with the direct route and after the jump your ship is also for at least 10 minutes vulnerable to attacks.

 

This is misleading because the small ship in this example is using a jumpgate and the mothership is not.  Using the gate in System A is just a matter of saving resources, and not required.  If you remove the jumpgates from the equation the small ship is virtually immobile compared to the mothership.  The opposite should be true.

 

The mothership would be vulnerable to interception if it also had to use the jumpgate and then slowly travel across the system to point C.  And this would make for more interesting warfare dynamics than appearing at a point and then having to wait a while to become fully functional.

 

As for resources, I would expect that jumpgates would need to be larger and spend more resources to send larger ships through them in any case.

[Darius Sanguna]

 If you remove the jumpgates from the equation the small ship is virtually immobile compared to the mothership.

This is the point, it is only logically that a mothership has the size and the resources for a larger and possibly more powerful tech, such as a jumpengine.

If you remove the jumpengine what would be the point of having such a humongous ship in the game, besides that you want to build it and its possible use as carrier. The only advantage of such a ship that i can see are more and/or larger weapons, but the effectivness of these weapons against smaller ships shrinks with the growing size. And you are unable to destroy planets in the game, at least as far as i know, so there would be no super weapons, that would require such a ship.

So see the jumpengines more as additional motivation for building such ships.

Why such ships still need jumpgates, can you read in Fitorions posts. I have also mentioned possible single-use jumpengines for small ships.

And jumpgates shouldn't be removed from the equation, because they should be much cheaper as motherships.

 

The mothership would be vulnerable to interception if it also had to use the jumpgate and then slowly travel across the system to point C.  And this would make for more interesting warfare dynamics than appearing at a point and then having to wait a while to become fully functional.

If a mothership not in a rush, it would normally use jumpgates, because of the resources that are needed to jump. So in this case it would also be vulnerabel to attacks.

In case of a rush, an enemy could use advanced sensor and hyperspace sensor probes to detect the ship in hyperspace, calculate the possible exitpoint and intercept, in this case the ship would be even more vulnerable.

 

As for resources, I would expect that jumpgates would need to be larger and spend more resources to send larger ships through them in any case.

Jumpgates could be able to vary their physical size, but yes in some cases they would need additional energy. In Babylon 5 the jumpgates consists of 2 independent main bodies and several moveable parts on the main bodies, if i remember correctly.